Author Topic: Mindfulness and codependence thread  (Read 136828 times)

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #765 on: November 05, 2021, 12:47:40 PM »
Hops:
I'll be building, climbing and getting sore as long as I can.  It's me....doing what I love to do. I don't get sore as often as I perhaps should, imo. 

That commercial.....where they sing ...
"Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think..." goes through my mind.  It helps me focus on my joy.

As for managing responsiveness.....it comes and goes, but at least I'm alert to it.

Sometimes it feels like I can see the hidden meaning behind every piece of advice I've given and received...

What you fear will find you...
what we resist....persists...
Be here ... now....

It's different when I understand vs practice vs internalize it.

Lately, and despite the interpersonal chaos around me, I have managed more emotional distance which translates into adrenals healing and calmer headspace, generally.

I wonder if I ll forget what living in fight or flight felt like......and it makes me feel.....it feels like flipping a switch.  I could say once I knew better....I did better, but that's not true.

Knowing is much different than laying new pathways and building them, ime.

It's not magic ... it's really hard work.   The moments I notice sea change always hit with surprise. 

Lately I wonder how it was so hard, bc it seems obvious.....now, knowing something else will come up and cycle through....getting cleaner and more streamlined it's hoped, as I navigate.

Lighter

 


Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #766 on: November 05, 2021, 01:07:45 PM »
Totally agree -- it is bloody hard work.
If only a few positive affirmations could cure PTSD....

I hear you.

And though mine aren't as intense, I do feel I understand those flashes, because now and then anxiety can hit me out of the blue and I literally cannot breathe. Been a long time since it was that bad and its intensity DID wear down with time.

For me, in the now, it's facing that I carry around a couple of brain and emotional weaknesses (vulnerabilities) that I'm always going to have to protect and be vigilant about. They're invisible. On the inside of me. Nobody else is going to be that interested or that able to monitor and watch out and take care and all that...so I have to get better at it myself.

Older and oldest age will not make this easier. But it's part of the price of admission.

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HOps
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lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #767 on: November 09, 2021, 12:23:30 PM »
I'm noticing less fear and more ease/confidence lately.

Energy freed up from worry/reacting is a precious powerful thing, ime.




lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #768 on: December 11, 2021, 06:44:32 PM »
My last appt with nutritionist really pointed out how my milk consumption is harming my health.  I have a painfully gooey left ear....traced back to milk.  I'm one of those ppl without acceptable milk replacement.  Oldest DD used to be, but now likes cashew and oat milk.

::Shaking head::.  Not me.

I've skipped the morning latte I was dependent on and woke with a flat stomach this morning. 

If I can go zero g/s/d with 1 ( specially chosen) carb a week..... I'll be where I want to be with food. Dropping the inflammation is a no brainer.  My feet are pain free....have been for a while.  There was pain in both feet for a while there.....failure to be pristine with food choices is expensive in several ways.

2 days sans dairy and the left ear isn't popping and hurting, come to think if it.  NRP added codliver oil to supps regime to help with milk cravings and it seems to b helping as I've switched to plain hot tea with less internal wining as I go.

I had a couple days feeling motivated to BE inside my stronger, healthier fighting weight body.  I stretch and catch any hip/back/ neck pain and correct proactively with the Pain Free book.  I wish aI had that book 30 years ago.

The gi rls and I will put up our 8 foot Balsam  Christmas tree tomorrow..... it's waiting in the garage, soaking up water along with 25 feet of beautiful Balsam garland and a lovely mixed wreath.

We'll use colored lights,watch The Fantastic Mr. Fox and start putting gingerbread houses together to be decorated over Christmas holiday. 

This year will be my sibs and me doing our own thing bc Covid travel is just too hard.  The girls and I plan to go out for Christmas dinner.  Maybe Korean BBQ or Sushi.  Maybe this will be a new ritual.  More creating.  Less worship of food we have sensitivities to.

I hope we get snow.

Lighter






lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #769 on: December 26, 2021, 02:04:03 PM »
I feel like I've scattered posts across different threads, mixing them up on mine and other people's.  I'll try to be more precise going forward.

Today I have time to sit with something I haven't dealt with yet, but pops up too often to ignore any longer.

It's reactivity around my brother's past low opinions and criticisms of me, particularly around the renovation stuff and how "difficult" I am as a human being.  Once, in 2008, he accused me if wearing shirts displaying my belly, which happened to be true if his PD wife, not me, at that time.  THIS reactivity connects to every deeply wrong accusation he's leveled at me ( I think from his own pain) and so it's like dragging an anchor of old stuff.

Admitting this sends stinging bolts of energy into my Nervous System...... and then I feel better just st accepting it.  I can't change it.  It won't ever have been fair and replacing the frustration with compassion for him released a pressure valve so I look forward to walking the walk, breathing spaciousness into the places I feel physical discomfort...... when my brother compliments me.... I'd like to feel only a flush of gratitude and pride.....no flash of hurt at unjust treatment.  Esp since he had no idea how it landed.

So, I admit I've noticed a sort of default setting becoming habit.  I breathe and center myself over and over, never fully processing the damage bouncing around my limbic system.

Today I walk the walk and revisit daily mindful practices to sturdy up new pathways and forgetting us OK.

Remembering is better.

Lighter




Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #770 on: December 26, 2021, 02:45:15 PM »
Ouch. I hear that, Lighter.
My otherwise-always-kind father ONE TIME made a remark that shamed me for being...sexual. (Nothing explicit about it. I was in my 20s and he was from anothr time. It was a generational thing.)

In a long life of being kind, that remark stood out to me because it HURT so much. So I understand why your brother's remark about visible belly had the same effect.

I understand they have a lovely selection of burkas on Amazon.

In sisterhood,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #771 on: December 28, 2021, 12:01:13 AM »
I'm sorry you were shamed by your sweet father, Hops. 


lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #772 on: January 27, 2022, 01:14:39 PM »
Lately I've been aware of this phase I live in...... having it's limit.   This phase will be gone soon, I can tell. Another will bein, whatever that is and it's hard to say what it will be.

I used to have a pretty good idea what the next phase would be.  Larger life phases with relative KNOWNS,like.... dating and marriage and parenting and fighting the good fight and being productive and enduring and limping through holidays even if I'd lost the ability to be present and look into people's eyes and BE present, even with my chldren...... I guess being held hostage by type A personalities demanding my attention was still a thing, maybe up to 4 years ago....but that was 4 years ago.

Now is not then.

 I know that in my bones.  I don't fear the next phase and I honestly didn't realize that until this moment.  I mean....I haven't said YES to anything, outside of doing business I felt I had to undertake, that would in any way trap or force regrets down my gullet. A couple friendships, but I haven't risked much and that was by design.  People are complicated and the type As attracted to my energy are mostly trouble.  I mean, who would want to BE around them.... who else besides earnest, overtly devoted, optimistic co dependents allow their boundaries to be crossed by an inch, then a foot then a yard, etc till they're in a stupid-trap hole, where "normal" people simply would allow themselves to be pushed?  And allowing oneself to be driven into a hole has something to do with feeling some inaibility to act and respond to the first asaults on boundaries, which means completely screwed when sorting the HUGE transgressions and crawling out of the hole, IME.

I knew it would be what it is....... I knew I would refuse to subject myself and children  to the possibility of tyranny and nut job control scenarios I was sick to death of..... forerver sick to death of, but then they still came up and I had zero to do wtih them popping up. 

What's interesting, now...... is how being polite, withstanding discomfort and innapropriate behaviors is exactly what lead to the more tedious and alarming behaviors.  Had I been less resilient, less able to bite my tongue, less cool and "stoic" I would have called a spade a spade, blurted out boundaries and consequences very early and made a big stinky McStink stink when a boundary was crossed.  Just been..... what most PD type As ARE, IME.  Ruined the vibe, shut down the flow of things and everyone's ability to pretend and continue being productive on the path we were walking together.  I would have put people OFF my path without hesitating and that's pretty much the thing, isn't it?

We state boundaries and consequences so we don't have to think about it when it comes up..... we planned it out when calm and ACTING is the thing we do or don't do.   That's a link in the chain of making healthy choices and enforcement, without hesitation is a really important one.  I recognize it, actually, from 25 years ago.  It's been a theme and maybe why I'd rather crush my ankle than try again. 

It would be easier to say I'm a PD magnet, bc it's not the entire case.  It's part of it, but only a fraction, IME.

And that's the dream, isn't it.  How I frame the world, as it was, and maybe how it is for me now........ very different and I safer now than ever, for more than one reason, but...... I notice thinking about it borders on feelig tedious.

My inner toddler isn't having any of it, she's firm on that and she feels pretty final about it..... but I know she's  not in charge any longer.  I know there's another phase coming and the toddler's cross armed refusal to consider much has shifted a few isles back and she'll settle down if reassured and asked nicely, without confrontation. Lord, I think she's relieved about it and it's been a long time for her to have to worry and protect in her way.  She'll relax and trust me.

I'll be interested in how I handle boundary transgressions.  It will feel out of place, at first.  Maybe it'll seem funny or jarring, but it's going to be fearless.... or so it seems.

I don't fear losing this phase and I always always notice when phases are about to shift....since I can remember.  It used to be sad, but it's not that....not anymore.  Partially, bc of the work with my T....... I rarely miss my happiest moments, bc it feels like they're still with me, unchanged, as they were and still present.  What an amazing, game changing thing to feel.

And so, the next phase, whatever it is, I'll remain curious about it and trust there won't be any rabbit holes I can't handle....and that's a leap, bc I very much believed I could handle all the potential rabbit holes in my life.  I always felt very strong and capable and competent.

It's difficult to overcome toxic people who lie, cheat and steal as a matter of course.  Maybe bc the rules only allow the bad actors to break them..... or maybe that was just MY stuff......believing I had to follow all the rules and tell only the truth and BE judged on exactly the facts without variance while the PD lied, cheated and stole...... assaulted and I just kept toughing it out and trying to de escalate things, bc THAT was my real weakness.  I don't have that weakness any longer..... it turned into something else and it's OK, whatever it was.  It's not that now.

I'll be making new mistakes, thank you very much; )

Lighter









Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #773 on: January 27, 2022, 01:23:18 PM »
Wow, this is strong, Lighter.

It helps me to ponder that 95% of human situations don't demand that I make a binary choice between fear and safety.

Assertiveness and good boundary-setting can be adrenaline free. THAT's the magic of them, once practiced over time. (And I can never stop working at it, with my history.) Hindsight or correcting my first response is routine.

I try to recognize when a threat is a rhino and when it's an insect. We're bigger than bugs.

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Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #774 on: January 27, 2022, 03:32:51 PM »
Hops:

How does it feel to ponder assertiveness for you.... right now?

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #775 on: January 27, 2022, 05:59:56 PM »
Comfortable, happy and glad.

I'm so grateful the concept (and all those sites with specific examples) is out there. First learned about it in my 20s but it took years to sink in.

Leaving the relationship with M was a big threshold step for me. I think there's been a lot of good growth since that choice.

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Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Phyll

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #776 on: February 03, 2022, 01:00:35 PM »
The other day I allowed the Fed Ex Driver cross a number of boundaries and I have been kicking myself for it ever since (which is really not very productive).  I thought I would toss it out here to see what your thoughts are:

You might recall how we built a fence around our property with gates at our driveways after dealing with the neighbor trying to lure our dogs into the road with a dog whistle while carrying a hand-crafted spear-like weapon.

I was going to the Post Office to check our mail.  I pulled up to our gate, got out to open it and returned to my vehicle. As I started to pull forward to leave, I realized the Fed Ex Driver had blocked the road to deliver a package.  We have a large drop box outside the gate and drivers know to leave packages there.

Instead of putting the package in the box the driver walked into the fenced-in area and approached me in my car.  I popped out and let him hand me the package.  I tried to keep my distance by backing up - he proceeded to ask me questions, such as if we had any concerns with deliveries.  Then he guessed the small heavy package contained ammunition. (actually, it was some tractor tire chain links for our newer tractor - but it was none of his business.)  He went on to say how he like target practicing.  I got the impression he was fishing to see where we stood on the political spectrum.

We do not advertise our political views to our neighbors, and it is not a topic I want to bring up to discuss here - but when someone says certain things I do not promote silence.

I was relieved when W came outside to join the conversation.  He could tell from the camera feed that I was backing up and Mr. Fed Ex was pumping me for information.  Fed Ex started talking about how politically divided the country was and W explained how the fence and gate came about.  It became clear to us, but not clear to the driver we were NOT on the same page as he started talking about racist views. It was not clear until W told him we were not religious or political, that we did not want to see the country go back to the days when black men were hanging from trees; and that the neighbors who harassed us were white.

I am disappointed in myself and have all sorts of could've', should've, would'ves rolling around in my head. 
-- I was not being mindful of my surroundings.  Surely the Fed Ex truck was coming down the road when I opened the gate, but I did not even look.
-- I did not instruct the driver to back up so I could drive out and shut the gate.
-- I did not tell the driver to put the package in the box.

Some of my greatest assets are also my greatest defects.  I am too willing to be "nice" at times, too open with personal information.  Basically - I am not skilled in the art of boundary setting.

It is not that I have not tried.  I have read about it - I even facilitated a recovery workshop on boundary setting (to increase my own awareness and skills).  II have done 4th and 5th Steps on the issue of my seemingly inability to say No.  Do any of you have any suggested resources for practicing boundary setting?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 01:13:23 PM by Phyll »

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #777 on: February 03, 2022, 03:23:18 PM »
I'm sorry you're struggling with boundary setting and enforcement, P.

Right now I'm keenly aware of my difficulties with enforcing boundaries, even when I set them easily and with conviction.  It seems like there are so many moving pieces and the pieces are different with neighbors, children, siblings and  mail men(mine held me hostage at my door for 10 minutes  while the snow and wind blew through my t shirt and jammie shorts). 

It also seems like people CAN'T HEAR me...... and it's maddening, bc what did I say and how did I say it to BE ignored and there is part of my problem.  I assume everything is my fault, even though clearly it's not, that's the first thought popping into my head.

I think what I'm saying to you is........ even if you set a boundary, ask Fed Ex guy to move, put the package down,  got into your car..... he might have ignored every word you say and I'm not entirely sure how to counter that proactively.


You might look in your rearview and avoid the Fed Ex driver instead of facing him at all to resolve the issue in the future.  I might have ignored the knock at the door by my postman and refused to open it...... he had a package we were expecting, so highly unlikely I'd ever do that, but my point is.... maybe it's the way we speak, what we say and how we posture as we say it? 

And I'm not talking about any of this being our fault, bc that ideas been niiggling at me regarding many disordered people and patterns in my life....... I'm just saying...... maybe the patterns hold keys and seeing them, without judgment of any kind, can free us from being cornered and ignored when we speak, set boundaries, etc. 

And I've been very plain spoken in my life...... I think I came to the that place bc people tend to not listen to me, ever, including my family members since birth, but also men and people I worked with, etc. 

Ahhhh.... and so at my most powerful..... when I stood my ground without flinching and stated difficult things with ZERO wiggle room... when I stated boundaries AND consequences NO ONE COULD mistake for something else....... both times I ended up married to very disordered men with zero empathy and so I'm sending you much compassion as I read your post.  And so I connect beign assertive with inviting dangerous attention...... and it's happened many times in my life.  It's wedged in my limbic system, even when I'm not thinking about it. 

I actually told my mailman I needed to go, I needed to shut the door, I needed to put down the 25lb pug squirming in my arms and barking over him and he just would not be quiet or hand me the package or get off my porch.  Even if you'd stated your boudaries to the Fed Ex guy, P...... it's likely the boundary he likely wold have ignored you and failed to comply  and then there's a larger very red flag waving, isn't there? I consider it one. 

As I read your post and remembered your situation with the fence and the crazy neighbor I wondered if Mr. Fed Ex and he are chummy.  I worried you had more trouble heading your way, but then...... I sometimes like I can be too proactive and perhaps I am. 

I'm not afraid of my post man...... but I'm not going to join into a he said/he said battle between him and another postman over accusations of stolen tips and things I have no way of discerning.  I COULD have said that, taken the package and shut the door, right?  Maybe, but I don't want the postman stalking me bc I hurt his feelings and I'm pretty careful about that bc I've had SO MANY RUN INS with men over my saying NO in normal tones with things escalating in really odd ways..... it always seem to start in small ways and I'd hate for you to have more trouble with the Fed Ex guy bc you injured his ego or whatever.  You aren't responsible for not hurting his feelings.  You are responsible for limiting contact with unstable boundary trouncers who feel they have a right to hold you hostage for reasons of their own.....nothing to do with you, though you know they don't hold rude, impatient, unkind people hostage, ever. 

I resent being in the position to wonder IF I'm a magnet for disordered people.

It's funny you bring this to the board right now, bc I had a lengthy discussion with my youngest about it, and many things honestly around similar topics...... round and round we went, just so confusing and difficult to get on the same page all the time, IME.

So I'm asking..... had you told the Fed Ex man to put the package in the box and move his truck.... and he ignored you..... then what would you have done?  What are appropriate consequences and when/how do we state them so as not to escalate or invite another bruised male ego into your life? 
I won't even assume the Fed Ex guy is chummy with nutsy neighbor or likely to lash out at those who fail to hold their same political views.

BTW it made me very nervous to read W told Fed Ex guy ANYTHING about your political views.  It felt like a very real violation and I felt there were many red flags.

Lighter





Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #778 on: February 03, 2022, 04:09:48 PM »
Great example, Phyl. I have a couple responses:

1) Stop critiquing yourself. You engaged, it backfired, and he's a jerk. NOBODY does assertiveness perfectly.

I think one problem that sneaks in along the same corridor is being trained to not understand that being assertive because of fury or fear or, in contrast, overdoing it as though you're going to be attacked, aren't assertive. Genuine assertiveness is a COMFORTABLE thing to do. It's not vibrating around the edges with guilt over not being submissive or cooperative, or with fear. IMO, it's part of the process to learn to check/inspect one's fear. Is it realistically justified? Is past trauma triggering me to over-assert or over-react? Does this event deserve any of my serenity? Does someone have to WIN here, or do I have other things to think about? (BTW, I don't describe it that way because I'm awesome at it, just have some cumulative thoughts about it.)

2) You could complain to FedEx. You could mentally rehearse for another time. You could try not to imagine dark consequences of not taking in his signals and feeling a compulsion to respond to, discuss, or react to them. I doubt he's going to attack you.

I think it's also a function of personal privacy. Holding your balance and not worrying about what HE thinks.

I think it takes loads of practice, and you have the right to do it wrong. And then try again. And then practice it some more. And then over time, one day realize -- hey, I can DECLINE boundary invasions. That's not defending yourself as though your life is threatened, it's just "I'm not interested in this dialogue, so I exit it now. NOW. In the moment." I truly think THAT is a huge key to all this. Taking action, not engaging in dialogue out of politeness/niceness/compulsion to respond. You have no obligation to engage back with any person, ever. Learning to ACT by simply walking away. I think that's much more effective than drumming up the perfect thing to say.

Channel somebody a little more FORMAL than you naturally are, when dealing with intrusion. As much as I loathe classism, when I moved into my new house and recognized that one neighbor was a major boundary violator who'd take a mile if I gave him an inch of interaction, I summoned internal NMom and my spine went up straight, I made no eye contact, murmured a few nothings like "yes, no, uh-huh" and simply walked into my house and shut the door. The man's never bothered me since. I FROZE him with snooty indifference, and it felt empowering. (That may not be the best model for your circumstances, but in mine, it worked a treat.)

Exs: "I have to go, have a good day."
"Next time just put the package in that box, thanks."
Or....just hand extended for the package and NOD and leave (don't speak).
It's the speaking back, accepting someone manipulating you into unwanted conversation, that you can stop by NOT speaking --or using an absolute minimum of words "yes, no, goodbye" -- and by physically WALKING.
Whatever makes sense for the situation. (If that behavior confuses them, great.)

Anyway, hope some scrap in all this ramble is helpful.

hugs
Hops
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 12:46:26 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Phyll

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #779 on: February 04, 2022, 03:33:49 PM »
Thank you both for acknowledging my post, and for being more tolerant, kind and gentle than I am with myself. :) It seems I tend to be too hard on myself and W is all too happy to encourage that inclination. 

You make good points: nobody does assertiveness perfectly and if the person does not hear or comply with your request - what am I willing to do to enforce it?  I think too I am smarter than I give myself credit for.  My niceness is sometimes more effective and /or safer than being firm or even verbally combative.

When I think about it, before W arrived on the scene, I had Mr. Fed Ex talking about dog biscuits instead of ammunition.  He was offering to drop off some of the ones his wife bakes for their Standard Poodle.

I do not recall if I told you the back story on the harassing neighbor.  When we moved here in 2015 we were instructed by the Post Office to put our mailbox next to his.  While we were doing so he and his wife walked up from their yard - he was carrying a shot gun.  When I explained that the Post Office was not adding any more routes the very first words out of his mouth were, "You know why that is don't ya?  It's because we got a Ni_ _ er in the White House."  For self-preservation, neither W or I responded to the comment, which I suspect pegged us as "Fng liberals" in the neighbor's opinion.

His wife de-escalated the situation by acknowledging we had only been there for 10 days and that was the first thing to come out of her husband's mouth.  During the remaining conversation it was clear his wife had aphasia, possibly from a stroke or some form of dementia.  I decided at the time the neighbor had one redeeming quality - he clearly loved his wife. He cared for her at home and she died in November 2019, the winter before he started his harassment campaign against us.
We had no other interaction with the neighbor until then.

I am on the fence as to whether or not W divulged too much.  I did not get the impression the Fed Ex guy knows our neighbor, but maybe.  I do know the neighbor tells anyone who will listen how terrible we are.  I cannot imagine his behavior seems normal to any sane person.  It seems we are damned if we keep to ourselves or if we voice our values when confronted with those who oppose them. 

Strange times we are living in...