Friendship Moments: good or bad

[Hopalong]

Had a great conversation with my wise 80 y/o friend, who is never afraid of the stickiness or darkness of any topic or question, ever. She is a treasure.

Anyhow, I got another layer peeled down to take to T next week. WHY do I get so triggered by a frantic desire to rescue/fix her (or anyone)? Aha. It happens more for me in relationships with women. Cue: lifelong baggage fear of women's rejection. Present baggage about how excruciatingly important friendships are w/o having family. Ahhhahahahha. So, if I choose to no longer repeat the pattern of: Poet dumps heartrending stuff, I take it straight to heart and become myself very distressed by her distress. Then I try to find the answers for her or, if she has directly asked, advise her what to do. Then when the cleanup email (la la la, it's all better now) arrives the next day, I feel used/drained/and even pissed.

So my own work, my question can be: Does this (like everything) mean my fear of abandonment by female friends come from my earliest Nmom stuff? Even if it does, can facing that help me unhook my present response choices from child-Hops' vulnerability, so I stay secure in myself no matter what Poet's reaction is?

I think it'll obviously be a Yes. That feels good. Insight is worth everything. And I also am thinking when Poet and I Zoom on Sunday, I need to own my half of the experience with her, and let her dance away if she must, but also give her the opportunity to own that the reason it's so hard isn't due to her initial reaching out in distress (I never want her to feel she can't) -- but mostly due to her cleanup messages afterward, which are full of denial and lacking in serious followup plans.

She's got a right to take her own time and energy to heal or not heal (leaving when the pain of staying is more than the pain of letting go), as Lighter mentioned. But I've lost track of my own right to protect my equilibrium by finding enough detachment to ask the classic healthy question: "Gosh, what do you think you're going to do?"

I may be deluding myself, but feel as though I might be on the edge of a breakthrough. It's not serving either of us for me to join her in the repeated "game" as a willing accomplice. I don't have to go cold or anything like that, but do have to face that being her closest friend through this cycle has a cost, unless I get a grip and learn how to practice more distance.

Plus, wise friend said: If you join her in the pattern: She panics over being abused, you rush in to urge her to SEE and SEEK a different way, she replies with a pastiche of ego and posing to cover her feelings of vulnerability and shame, and then becomes distant for a while while she copes with those (which triggers YOUR feelings of abandonment), and then all is well until it starts again. And if you do keep cooperating with her pattern, you are helping her stay stuck. (Because she's not having to face the consequences/realities of not choosing a new path.)

I knew these precepts of codependency but think it got through to me more clearly this time, because the idea of hurting my friend or participating in a dance that keeps her stuck feels terrible. I am more motivated now to try a different approach. Even if I have to stick a note on my monitor to remind me during our next chat, that's fine. Because I'm not in charge of her but I am in charge of my own health. And I recognize that this pattern is not helping her and is harming me.

Whew.
Hugs
Hops

[lighter]

 Hi, Hops.  I'm glad you have your very wise friend in 3D to bounce things off of. 

It seems to take as much time as it takes to identify patterns without fight or flight shutting down logic and reason.  I'm amazed when managing to sidestep survival mode making it possible to see so much than before.  I'm experiencing something similar.

I hope it's possible to remain outside your Poet friend's spiral to remain as responsive and able to respond in the most helpful way possible while sidestepping reactivity and familiar rabbit holes of your own.

It's perfectly to fine to hold space for the Poet's distress so she can feel it and, hopefully, process it into clarity and knowing.

You can't want something more for the Poet than she wants for herself.

Your willingness to carry her distress with her likely relieves her discomfort enough she can put it away, until next time, when you're there for here again, or maybe just holding space for her to be safely IN her distress.

I'm shocked at all the choice and possibilities opening up when fight or flight is calmed so our entire brain comes online.  Like flipping a switch.

You aren't just protecting your equilibrium when you sit with her distress without reacting.  You're opening up possibility to sit with and experience your own distress and abandonment issues......me too. 

I had to figure out giving space, instead of trying to save others, isn't giving up or being cold or lacking compassion.....its healthy and ya, creates distress at first, but therapists are there to guide and inform.

Allowing others to feel their distress and save themselves doesn't equal the behavior of a sociopath.  It can feel that way, ime.

I try to remember the difference between helping someone heal or helping them stay where they are is everything.  I have choices.  Helping feels better than enabling, ime.  Not at first, but it doesn't take long to show up then gets easier, ime.

I like the phrase....
"Let me know how that works out for you" when someone I care about is processing painful emotions.......it puts the weight of their choices squarely with them. 

You're a good friend to the Poet, Hops.  I think you're definitely have a breakthrough.
Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Lighter. I really am confronting what I allowed to happen to myself. And your examples of counter-behavior ("Let me know how that works out for you") are great. What is helping most is I hit a threshold I've been wanting HER to hit. A sort of this-is-enough kind of moment. Not abandoning her or the friendship, but not wanting to go through this particular dance with her again.

I'm better. Zooming with Poet this afternoon. Or rather, listening. She's calm now and I am too. But what I want to notice is all the ingredients of the triggered tailspin I went into for a couple days. My T will help too, Weds. Ingredients are:

1) Poet sends helpless/hopeless/frightened email: "I'm shaking inside and can't sleep, I can't physically take this, I'm going to have to leave home, partner calls me selfish and evil for saying No to son who'll scare me and steal, and what should I do???
2) I launch into an answer. (You aren't the obstacle to remove from your own home, change all the locks, talk to the police about a TRO, see a lawyer, this is enough, your partner is manipulating/abusing you...)
That was when I lost my way. Feeling compelled to answer her question. I have a choice! (Duh.) Instead I needed to answer her question with a question. Gosh-what-are-you-going-to-do? And not email. I think a call/Zoom is better, let her own what she's saying in the present and just "be" present/empathetic. Not FIX IT FIX IT.
3) She talks to him and he backs down and after lots of "resource" info from me, writes me one paragraph about it's all better now, she's set a boundary. (Ummm.)
4) I'm upset for two days. Really freaking out. Recognize my fear of losing her (closest friend, age 74, not all that healthy). My own codependency on steroids.
5) Tripped over a cord and fell (no harm, just a near miss from a table edge). Ate half a huge pizza. Needed to talk to older friend to calm down. Got too stressed over a deadline for my last OLLI class prep which wasn't hard -- fear of Pres' disappointment etc (she was fine when we met--fear losing that friend too). Let kitchen/laundry pile up, etc.

Just, wow. I think T will advise me not to judge myself. I can feel myself not wanting to. Having friendly thoughts like: You're vulnerable to this pattern but you do see it. You have a plan for the next time. This was triggery because XYZ, so you can pay kind attention to XYZ (only "phamily" friend, fear of loss of connection, need more friends, can't give her anything she doesn't want for herself, okay to detach a bit and not confuse her giving up with my own fear that I'll give up, etc., aging alone fear, etc). Lotsa stuff that I get to continue working on like an adult, on my own and with T, and here, that don't need to mess up friendship.

I swear to god it's okay to continue growing up. I'll be having a learning experience on my deathbed one day. And that'll be okay!

Pooch is sleeping on her chenille and everything about her body is saying: I love my morning naps curled on your bed, this is peace.

I am a lucky human.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Thank you, Lighter. I really am confronting what I allowed to happen to myself. And your examples of counter-behavior ("Let me know how that works out for you") are great. What is helping most is I hit a threshold I've been wanting HER to hit. A sort of this-is-enough kind of moment. Not abandoning her or the friendship, but not wanting to go through this particular dance with her again.

You KNOW the Poet would benefit from exiting an abusive relationship creating suffering in her life.  That's a truth.  I think that knowing leaves no space to just be and allow the Poet to be in her suffering..... just have it in your presence withou trying to save her or move her OUT of it, which is her work.

I posted a little about Eckhart Tolle's podcast on STORY...... there's knowing and then there's knowing AND allowing space for being present without knowing everything.  I think that shift is what makes it possible for my girls to listen and be mmore responsive, less reactive, in my presense.  I think it's something similar with your Poet friend, Hops.

I'm better. Zooming with Poet this afternoon. Or rather, listening. She's calm now and I am too. But what I want to notice is all the ingredients of the triggered tailspin I went into for a couple days. My T will help too, Weds. Ingredients are: 

1) Poet sends helpless/hopeless/frightened email: "I'm shaking inside and can't sleep, I can't physically take this, I'm going to have to leave home, partner calls me selfish and evil for saying No to son who'll scare me and steal, and what should I do???
2) I launch into an answer. (You aren't the obstacle to remove from your own home, change all the locks, talk to the police about a TRO, see a lawyer, this is enough, your partner is manipulating/abusing you...)
That was when I lost my way. Feeling compelled to answer her question. I have a choice! (Duh.) Instead I needed to answer her question with a question. Gosh-what-are-you-going-to-do? And not email. I think a call/Zoom is better, let her own what she's saying in the present and just "be" present/empathetic. Not FIX IT FIX IT. My mother used to say "You can be too right, Lighter" and I think that's a real thing.  KNOWING and bring right, without considering what one doesn't know..... leaves no oxygen in a room or space for being present with others, IME.  I hope that makes sense.  I'm still wrestling it to the ground; )
3) She talks to him and he backs down and after lots of "resource" info from me, writes me one paragraph about it's all better now, she's set a boundary. (Ummm.)
4) I'm upset for two days. Really freaking out. Recognize my fear of losing her (closest friend, age 74, not all that healthy). My own codependency on steroids.  Can you identify your earliest memory of feeling this way, Hops? 
5) Tripped over a cord and fell (no harm, just a near miss from a table edge). Ate half a huge pizza. Needed to talk to older friend to calm down. Got too stressed over a deadline for my last OLLI class prep which wasn't hard -- fear of Pres' disappointment etc (she was fine when we met--fear losing that friend too). Let kitchen/laundry pile up, etc. Just noticing those thngs, without judging yourself or fearing into the future is progress, Hops.  For me, it feels like unlocking the doors beyond the rooms I've been confined to...consciously and unconscously.  The next doors have sunlight and pleasant sounds and scents I didn't know existed.  Those doors hold easier flow and being....... not bc of mechanically DOING and acting, but bc of what I've dropped and what I've picked up..... creativity and reason appear... usually unexpectedly and then I connect the dots backwards to see how the machine was buit and THAT I BUILT SOMETHING new withoout understanding what it was I was building.

Just, wow. I think T will advise me not to judge myself. I can feel myself not wanting to. Having friendly thoughts like: You're vulnerable to this pattern but you do see it. You have a plan for the next time. This was triggery because XYZ, so you can pay kind attention to XYZ (only "phamily" friend, fear of loss of connection, need more friends, can't give her anything she doesn't want for herself, okay to detach a bit and not confuse her giving up with my own fear that I'll give up, etc., aging alone fear, etc). Lotsa stuff that I get to continue working on like an adult, friendship.

I swear to god it's okay to continue growing up. I'll be having a learning experience on my deathbed one day. And that'll be okay! 

Pooch is sleeping on her chenille and everything about her body is saying: I love my morning naps curled on your bed, this is peace.

I am a lucky human.  I love imagining Pooch sleeping on her chenille..... chennille reminds me of my Grandma on the farm.  Such comfort: )

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

I zeroed in on the Tolle thing on your other thread Lighter, so I'll respond here rather than here and there...knowing while allowing space for NOT knowing. Wonderful stuff, so apt.

Just used more of it happily in a Zoom with Poet, who's all sparkly with relief. I did address it all directly, making a distinction between her vents, which I have no desire for her to stifle, and what I'm responsible for with myself...not lurching into rescue. It was a really good converation and made the last couple days' struggle very worthwhile.

It amazes me sometimes that once I learn something, or get an insight, I can apply it immediately in any relationship. Not perfectly, and practice not perfection is the point, but it felt great. We both celebrate and value our friendship, and I'm saying out loud that I intend to return to celebrating her doing HER own process in her own time. We got to laughing.

She analysed him a lot and talked more about her way of being with him. And I recognized how quickly she moves through distress to a new story. But she's been making statements about how she WOULD cope if they ended. She says she'd sell her house and move in with her D. I know that HER future lifestyle (living alone or with family) is right for HER and found my resistance melting away.

I do think her personal dependent nature is a natural result for her of experiences she's had. And she has every right to live as she wants and there are blessings and benefits in the idea of her not having an individual homeplace. Family means a great deal to her and she's got a great D and grandD.

I wound up feeling at ease and glad for her. And for me! Learned a lot during this episode of re-encountering my own work. Whew.

So glad to hear how much your hard work in therapy is benefitting you too, Lighter.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Looking in from way outside, without any contextual references...

I had a flash on what's going on with your friend. It sounds like she doesn't respect her own perception/feelings about her situation; doesn't feel she's WORTH making life changes... and when she gets her "fix" of morale cheerleading, can happily continue within the same cage she built for herself. In essence, she's using "fixes" to build up a savings account balance to finally have enough self-respect to honor her own wants/needs.

It was just a momentary flash of seeing. Could be 1000 miles from reality or the truth.

-------------

On another note, there is a limited release movie on Prime called "Women Talking" that Hol recommended to me, that I did watch... and am still processing days later. It's hard to watch for anyone who's been assaulted or in an abusive relationship BUT, it's worth sitting with those women "talking" about their options. B kinda ignored the movie, until I got angry over it. Not entirely sure what made me feel angry... or hopeless at the end of the movie. It's a deep reflection/fantasy experience I think.

[Hopalong]

I was a little horrified by the whole exchange, ((((Amber)))). I thought I'd fixed me.
Her cycle of abuse/crisis appeal/minimizing followup/strangely happy right afterward. Then my cycle of horror at abuse/way too much "help"/deflation over her denial "cleanup"/drained.

I think we've identified it as clearly and openly as we can. I do not want to spend more years with an unhealthy reflexive response; this is an opportunity for me.

One article on CoD I read said something interesting: while one needs to recognize that over-the-top "help and rescue" can come from a big heart, it also comes from a big urge to control the situation. And that helps neither person. However, it's okay to influence, by being yourself and having the opinions/knowledge you have. It's a question of degree, I think. It's okay to OFFER help/info, but not to take off like a rocket with a crazy amount of it. And, any help offer needs to be clearly accepted before you involve yourself. Influence is not control. Nice distinction.

Your flash is interesting and makes intuitive sense. Her beliefs about herself are so deep that she's integrated them, and the plan to go directly to her D's basement to live if he leaves is based on not thinking even a year alone would be worth doing...is sad to me. But just fatalistic to her, since she views herself as a human who cannot function alone. Same time, she was pushing back against her self-image some yesterday, saying I CAN do it until the house sells.

I think I also echo a lot of her fears within my own life, which increases my tiger tendencies. Huh! Wild thought just hit. I wonder if one reason it's so destabilizing to me (my cycle) is because in an unconscious way, I've been formed by my mother's family and the child sexual abuse that took place in it. Never happened to me (just one incident in the back of a car when I was that age...an older boy directing me to fondle him, which I did because I was sweet and obedient) -- but my mother and her sisters had the incestuous father (dunno how much happened to my mother) and her damage ran all our lives at subtle levels, atop her narcissism. SO complex.

Anyway, I wonder if that kind of fear can be generational. Maybe in Poet's damage from being abused (not violently but coercively) that day in Africa at age 4 ... there's something of my mother's twisted psyche that I just sense. And rail at.

Huh. Well, back to my own bidness. But thanks for that flash thought, Amber.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

So, more stuff I've learned.

Lighter, you asked about earliest memory. I think there was a very early one of being left out on the terrace in a playpen, and crying, and our collie Laddie washing my face. A more vivid one was when my mother taught at the elementary private school and I attended 2nd grade there on "faculty scholarship". I was being bullied by a group of girls on the playground. I looked up and my mother was standing frozen at the edge of the area, watching. I had the childish thought that it'd be okay now, but she did nothing. (Later in life I thought about the memory and had compassion for her...she felt she couldn't intervene because...nepotism?)

My T thinks my over-reaction to Poet traces directly to my relationship with Nmom. She said she believes I was trained to be extremely attuned to Nmom's distress or displeasure and would feel panic unless I were fixing it, soothing it. That's true. Our entire family revolved around answering her constant calling out, being watchful of her comfort, etc. My Dad, too. She was never rageful or abusive but controlled us through facial expressions and manipulation. (I don't think she did this consciously.) I also think a lot of my hyper-empathy (which is painful) is inborn.

Lastly, I thought I'd use a reminder for Zooms with Poet. Three lines on a little note by my monitor: BE PRESENT. DON'T FIX. I AM SAFE. The T was very enthused.

Seems a little childish but I need a prop. Same way I needed "N.B. for no blurting" on my hand in work meetings as a way to contain ADD.

I feel as though I've reconnected with reality. The whole panic to fix is a distortion and a reflex from my childhood, which I don't need any more. Hated these feelings.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Wow. Such a time and lots to tell.
Poet visit went overall well and overall brought us closer.
I learned more about her (early abuse, date rapes - more about battering husband) and she about me (mainly a detailed description of what it can feel like inside ADD brain). She seemed quite happy, spent a lot of time writing. Rained nearly all week which was too bad, but we did meet a friend downtown one sunny day and she was happy to be shopping. One difficult morning she regressed and shocked me by complaining at length that I'd been leaving her too alone... and I was baffled because I'd repeatedly checked on her to be sure she was happy, comfy and relaxed and she always said she was just fine. (And she'd already known about my delayed sleep phase issue.) Another time she got hissy because my TV wouldn't work, and said she always watches TV with her partner evenings, etc. I felt pretty exasperated but held my cool and just said I felt some hurt because I'd really put effort into making things welcoming and comfy. She backed down and said "I'm being too dependent, and childish." Couldn't argue there. A lot of her volatility was due to steroids, which she's taking for a horrid immune reaction she had to her 1st booster, after having changed vax brands. It's rare but conclusively studied (bullous pemphigoid). Sounded like misery and she may have to deal with it for a long time. But we got through that friction honestly and moved on. I felt both sad and relieved when she left but am glad we did it and would welcome her back again. I did learn I would not want to travel with her or be her housemate, just as well to know that.

Bday party today was just as heavenly as I'd imagined. About a dozen people came out of the 30-some I'd sent the invite to, but I was fine with that -- especially since I'd had to bump it a week later and quite a few people already had previous plans for the rain date. (Plus, I didn't ask them to RSVP.) I was especially happy that two of the poets in my workshop group came -- one from two hours away. It was gorgeous, the rescued farm animals completely delightful, and I took (and left) enough mini carrots to feed them all for a week. Cows, pigs, goats, lambs, donkeys, chickens...I was just blissed out. The owners of the rescue are an incredibly nice couple who have worked for several years restoring and creating the sanctuary. Hundreds of gorgeous acres but most of the animals (all very friendly) are in well designed areas around a central space and barn, so access was easy for oldish folks to interact with them. Cows and a few goats were napping together in the barn for a while and looking into the window opening at them was like looking into a Brueghel painting. Such peace.

People had a good time, friends enjoyed meeting other friends and I just felt deeply grateful, happy and content. Though exhausted. We did get rain after an hour or so but there was a wonderful covered deck off the barn and we dragged chairs up there. I love spring rain showers. Got a bit soaked but had brought an extra shirt to change into. Pooch got practically drunk smelling my jeans when I got in, can't imagine the aromas she detected!

Now it's time to rest and then start dealing with my absolute wreck of a house tomorrow. One step at a time.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

That sounds so nice Hops, I'm really glad you had such a nice day out.  There is something so lovely about animal snuggles, more so if you know they've had a crappy start and now they're happy and well looked after.  I'm really pleased it all went so well and with so many people, too!  Nice when such a number will make an effort to gather and enjoy.  I hope you enjoy your well earned rest now, too.

[Hopalong]

Turned out to be 15 people! I'm still blissed out and don't think I'll wait another decade to do it again. WISH I knew how to post pix with a PM, would send to all'a y'all.

xxxooo

[lighter]

I would love to see pics, Hops!  I can smell the goats and feel their fur!  Just love love love petting zoos!

[Hopalong]

What's special about this place is that it is a real rescued-animals farm sanctuary, nothing zoo-ey. It's not open to the public or selling tickets. It's a pretty quiet nonprofiit that's gradually building its profile in small steps. Such kind people and the animals all acted like they knew they'd landed in heaven. Peaceful, relaxed, almost no squabbling, friendly, curious and very into baby carrots.

No idea why the owners responded as they did to my email but I'm so glad they did. What I loved just as much was seeing this group of 15 friends (most 70+ ish) tap back into their child-selves and enjoy patting and talking to all these sweet creatures who gathered at the fences to say hello. Showed me other sides of these people. And also to see the little groups of people I know (who don't know each other) overlap, mingle and enjoy chatting with each other.

Whole thing really lifted my spirits in a huge way, like a celebration of life, nature's beauty, and love.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I can't think of a better way to spend a birthday, Hops.

The owners likely responded the way they did, bc you're a great writer with an amazing heart..... how could they say NO to your request?  They couldn't: )

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks, ((((Lighter)))) for those kind words.

Still going back and forth with owner. I'd like to support in a real way but not with donations of money, so I've proposed doing marketing copy and/or edits if they're open to it. Already have plans to take a friend who CAN donate and her g-dtr out in June.

Yay! Re-visit my new friends the rescued cowspigsgoatssheepchickens! Woo hoo! This will be months of therapy in one, each time I go.

hugs
Hops