CoDependent......well that's me?

[Bettyanne]

I was raised by a woman you can Call her my mother but she was more like a command sergeant :::
She knew exactly what she wanted and she knew how to control her family to get just what she wanted. 
She had my dad wrapped around her fingers.......he was always going to grocery store or deli or where ever to fix something for dinner.  He drove her anywhere and picked up her friends who didn't drive.....what a man what a man or should I say asshole or driver or what ever you want to call him??
 She hated any part of being home? except when she was on the phone.....as my dad would say she loved being on the phone for hours.  It kept her happy.......

I remember when I would pass her by on the phone she would say things that pertain to me......like what?? I started  to not going near her when she was on phone.

My daughter was telling me how codependent I am......lately......just what I need to hear.....my husband just died and now I am codependent??? well I was taught by the best......Betty Lawler
My husband and I drove her on weekends for over 35 years to and from a Catholic Shrine where she would sell used jewelry .......she must have given these priests and nuns thousands and thousands of dollars and they would praise her and tell her how wonderful she was.......we would get at times a pizza she would buy and we would pick up on Sundays bringing her home.

She never helped me with six kids.......but she would give the kids money at times so that bought her praise and thank you Nanny.......she would line the kids up to say this to her often.....now when I think about this Betty Lawler or should I say what I think Asshole woman.....who would do that to your grandkids??? she was always looking for praise.

I learned how to be a good codependent daughter her only daughter......my brother died at age 24 of cerebral palsy as I have said before he never walked or talked and my grandmother or Nanny as she had me call her.......took care of him......while Betty Lawler was working.

I am now 77 and realized a long time ago.......what I was dealing with and realized lately I never really had a mother.......I had a person who said she was my mother but really she taught me well how to be codependent......wow aren't I lucky.....I drove her and my husband Bill drove her......she would say Thank you but in no a nice way.  I didn't owe her any rides anywhere......that's how well she trained me or brainwashed me......and my husband too....
I realize now how brainwashed I was.....my Therapist has said the same....How cruel to do this type of thing to your husband, your mother, and your daughter.......I only once said NO......when I realized how unfair all of this was......how stupid I was.....I realize now had I known I would have after I got married at age 21 to never see her again....ever.....she had my brain wrapped around her little fingers too.....but not in a nice way......always doing for her. Bill and I drove her over 35 years to that shrine....omg how stupid we were.....My t said she was narcissistic and borderline personalities.

I guess I learned too late.....I need to change, even with my childhood family dead and my husband now....please if you have any suggestions if you lived thought anything like this I would appreciate your suggestions. Especially dealing with codependent ??

Thanks, Bettyanne

[Twoapenny]

Oh Betty Anne, I can hear your pain and I'm so very sorry that you have all of this to deal with after losing Bill and going through so much already. 

Co-dependency is very common and very easy to fall into or become.  You are not stupid for giving your mum lifts or tolerating the things that she did.  You're a good, kind, decent person, it's obvious in what you write on here, so please don't blame yourself as you realise you prioritised someone who didn't prioritise you.  It's very normal for children to want to please their parents and keep them happy, and I imagine when you were a child that children had to do as they were told - I know that was the case for me.  It wouldn't have been possible for you to do anything else.  And then as you go through life, it's very normal to keep doing what you were already doing.  You had your kids to look after, your husband in your life and all the other things we all do, and it's hard to change habits, especially when you're dealing with people who don't want you to change them!  So please don't feel you did anything wrong by trying so hard for years to simply be a good person.

I have struggled a lot with codependency over the years and I still do.  I find it hard to say no to people and it still feels unnatural to me to put myself first, but it is getting easier.  I try to focus on what I want or need to do and then I try not to let the things other people want distract me from that, unless it's an emergency, of course.  At the moment, my priorities are mostly health related, so I'm focusing on making healthy meals, going for walks and doing yoga and meditating (there are all sorts of meditations on YouTube if you wanted to try any, there are many specifically focused on grief and you might find that helpful just now).  I'm enjoying my house being clean and comfortable so I'm focusing on that at the minute and of course, my son as he still needs help with a lot of things.  I'm trying to keep my mind busy with things that aren't stressful to me, so for me it's reading, music and watching things like nature documentaries or old comedies.  Maybe try to think about you and what you want, just in easy terms, day to day.  Things that you can make a start on now, like a nice long walk if that's possible or listening to an album you haven't heard for a long time.  Just something achievable that's about you and no-one else.  Just something for you.

It's very hard and it sounds a bit hippy dippy but I'm trying to get into my head just now "You're perfect the way that you are".  'Perfect for me is a bit too loaded so I say to myself "you're doing just fine, Tupp.  This is alright for now".  It doesn't quite hit the spot; I still struggle with the things I haven't done and ways I haven't been 'good' (I'm trying at the moment not to keep contacting people who don't really bother with me.  I find it hard and feel I need to ingratiate myself with them but I'm trying really hard not to).  But maybe think about something you can keep saying to yourself that reassures you, you didn't do anything wrong where your mum was concerned and you've done so much right with Bill and your kids.  You are doing just fine, Betty Anne.  It's been very tough but you've done yourself proud xx

[sKePTiKal]

I'll talk plain, about how I see co-dependence. Apologies in advance.

As humans, we want to be connected to our parents via love. What PD parents do, is teach us that "love" requires us to sacrifice so much of ourselves - that sometimes we don't have our own lives or even our own "selves". We don't have the chance to build that because to be considered a "good child" we must always be anticipating the wants & needs of the parent.

This often gets transferred to a spouse when we reach that age. And it can also happen with a parent & child - where the child manipulates and pulls the strings that make the parent take care of them long after the time has arrived that child should stand on their own two feet. I've seen myself do this with bosses and friends - seeking that outside approval that confers the status of "I'm a good person worthy of love".

When - over the course of years - I learned I could take that power back and I didn't need to make myself dependent on another person for that definition of myself, and learned about boundaries, and the power of "no"... there were some confusing complicated situations to sort out. Because I was changing my self... and that affected the old dependable interactions with others. So like a gawky teenager I flailed around until I found a better "happy medium" way for me to be open to affection with others - but from within my stronger self.

No one "did this to me" against my will because I wanted to be loved (that's normal); I did what I had to, to get that approval and what I thought was love; I wasn't a victim; and co-dependency isn't a life sentence - it's not something I just have to accept and learn to live with about myself. It's changed, through kindness to myself and trying to do things differently; more authentically. Co-dependency is a dysfunctional way of relating and interacting with other people; an old pervasive false concept that exists across cultures and centuries. Truth is - you are worthy of being loved most ESPECIALLY when you are being true to yourself and kind to yourself. And people will love you when you are practicing that, too.

[Hopalong]

Hi Bettyanne--
I think the things Tupp and Amber (Skep) have said here are poignant, practical and empowering.

I'm no expert on codependency. Back when I read the Melody Beatty books about it (have you had a chance to?) my problems with co-D were all about my relationships with men. Relationships still pose similar challenges for me. (If anything, though, I've overcompensated for codependency with ferocious boundaries at times.)

When a negative mother has affected someone as powerfully as yours has, reclaiming or rediscovering your self, as Amber mentions, sounds like the most satisfying and important job of this chapter of your life.

How can you rediscover or reconnect with the actual person, Bettyanne, who isn't just a symptom of her mother? You are so much more than that. It may be a slog, but I just keep thinking of very simple things to complement your psychotherapy.
They'd be on one level distractions from the nonstop rumination about your mother. On another level, they'd tap into a part of your mind -- creativity -- that belongs to every human being. You could find perhaps that in trying one or more of such things, your mind would get focused on an activity itself, and that concentration might give the other parts of your mind a rest from re-living life with your mother.

It might sound too simple, but what's to lose?

Some form of art--anything. Is there painting or pottery or drawing or sewing or embroidery or craft or growing (starting seeds indoors to plant or give away) or anything remotely like that (I loooove finger-painting) that appeals to you?

Some form of music--anything. Would a harmonica or harmonium or autoharp or keyboard bring you pleasure? (Like the pleasure of a little kid left alone in a room with something that makes good sound -- NOT like the pleasure of an adult who feels obligated to do it right or impress anybody else).

[AFTER pandemic.] Some form of theater--anything. Is there a children's theater or local troupe you could be a supporter for? If you don't perform, they always need props and costumes and backdrops or rehearsal snacks. It's just fun to be around.

Lastly, the best thing I know about is what Amber mentioned--getting your mind off your own sorrow by responding to another's. That's really challenging right now for older people, how to volunteer safely during a pandemic. So maybe it'd be making baby blankets at home, or calling shut ins, or something similar for now. But once you're safely vaccinated, volunteering in some simple but satisfying way might be a great thing to build into your life. (Volunteering for a telephone tree is perfect now.)

I once interviewed Alan Luks, who founded the Boys and Girls' Clubs of America, about his book on the scientific research on altruism. (The Healing Power of Doing Good). The most powerful finding to me was that scientists all had discovered that health measures actually changed in reponse to doing altruism (such as BP, illness, energy, longevity, even cholesterol!). The distinction I found most remarkable was that all altruism benefits both giver and receiver BUT with this difference:

1) donating a check, dropping off canned food is good for your health
2) handing a needy person money or feeding them a meal and joining them is great for your health

Those are just examples but all such interests can be put through the same filter. Giving money to the children's hospital is good for you. Having a regular shift rocking babies in the NICU is great for you (one of my future volunteer fantasies).

I know most of this can't kick in until after we're vaccinated. But maybe the creative stuff could help heal your mind right now without waiting. It might be about PLAY. The powerful healing and joy-making effects of play. Because with a childhood and adulthood that didn't invite you to play....now might be a time to find out what that feels like.

(You're also grieving, so play might not be giggly-happy. But you can weep while using watercolors. It'd be so great if you found something-anything like that that connects with your inner spirit that has always belonged to you.)

Hope this helps, or a word or two of it.

hugs,
Hops

[Bettyanne]

OMG......thank you all......for such detailed......wow.....that in itself is such a gift.....to me

I know now my dad was a push over or she would not have had anything to do with him......she needed someone she could boss around.....but he was a nice person but very weak in doing what he did not taking any stand with her..........
Her mother would yell and scream all the time......
my brother sad or laid all day long not much attention from my grand mother???
I was sent to girl school, on 2 different connecting buses to school.....good part of it I made it there but I hated the school. 

AT 16 I met Bill or as I would call him Billy......we both turned 17 and 18 in two months.  He made my life worth something.  He didn't like my mother either....we were both Catholic.....yuck to that now.  They were very controlling too......like if you ate meat on Fridays for sure your going to hell....I am laughing now how well these unhappy people could take their crap out on little kids.....and older ones too. 
My NM going to church daily after my dad, brother and her mother died when my Mother was 52.....wow she was free now except I got caught in her trap.  I never knew how to say NO.  She was so good or should I say manipulative at getting Bill and I to take her to the shrine for all those years. We had all the kids but somehow I was responsible to her rides.....
I also spoke to a lady by the name of Betty W.  Who told me the women in the office hated my mother and her controlling them and getting them to do things too......pretty good how this bitch of a person felt she could get others too???
Eight years ago when I was 69 this bitch dies......but a few days before I walked into her room at nursing home that took in patients who had been in hospital.  She had fallen at the office broke her hip, because the guy who drove her left his puppy with a leash on and tripped her and broke her hip.  He called me right away to fly from Washington state to New Jersey so I could take care of her.
So long story short one day I walk into her room at nursing home.....she is pointing to something on her bed and then pointing to where she wants it put......never saying a word......and only the week before at age 100 working at the office , nothing wrong with her voice.....so I stair at he, and she says to me .......What is is that you want??? I never said a word......her voice was so nasty....she died the following week.......I actually didn't know how to feel......in one way she was my mother and the other way was of the nastiest and cruelest people I ever knew. 
My T said she really never did anything or me.......she only took care of herself and had the family trained as well and anyone who would put up with it.......many did but they didn't like her.

AS I read your replies.......so healthy like do something Bettyanne for yourself......yes your right, its still so hard without Bill......I will do something......not sure yet.....but I hadn't been out of the house for the past 3 years as Bill was sick all that time.  I am not complaining about that I would do anything for him as he would do for me. 
To put up with someone like my mother Betty Lawler  you gotta be brainwashed.  As I read and write the above how I was like in a trap.....and not a nice one......I wonder sometimes if someone like her makes it to heaven? but then I say to myself why do I care where she is???? she is not worth my time in my head......or her mother. 

I will try to take some thought to all you all said above and find my way without her in my head.....but I will remember the good about my Billy.....he was so kind and loving to me.  I miss him most of all.....and my dad too.  I promise I will do something fun and enjoyable......
So grateful to you,  and your kindness ........Thanks, Bettyanne

[Twoapenny]

Just a few things I thought of when I read your post, Betty Anne - I think it's very normal when you've nursed someone extensively the way you have Bill these last few years, and then suffered that loss, for a whole tsunami of feelings and emotions to pour out, whoever they may be related to.  I think when you have to be strong and keep going lots of stuff gets pushed down, then when your situation changes, for whatever reason, it all pours out.  So do try not to give yourself a hard time about the things you feel and think about.  I know it doesn't feel nice but it's very normal and it does, eventually, reduce.  It is hard in the meantime, though.

I've not spoken to my mum for about fifteen years, but I still think about her every day.  My dad died nearly forty years ago and I still think about him every day as well.  I think our parents are such a big part of our lives that it's very natural to think about them often, whether for good or for bad.  I kind of think you can grow and heal around them, you know?  Like the way that sometimes you see a tree that's sort of grown around a fence or a pile of rubble?  I think people can be like that.  I'd just say try not to worry too much about the fact that you think about her a lot.  I think it will reduce in time.

Something I have found and do found useful for managing stress, grief, loss etc are the sort of hands on therapies that people can do - acupuncture, osteopathy, reflexology, those sorts of things.  I find just having someone else do something for me, put their hands on me in a healing kind of way, really helps, and helps ease out the knots that I get from being tense.  I don't know how things are with Covid where you are but maybe in time something like a massage or reflexology session might help a little as well.  Little things like that can really help xx

[lighter]

Echoing Tupp's experience with a good massage at, reflexogy, etc.  That, particularly when combined with good trauma informed therapy  ( particularly a therapist practicing emdr and memory reconsolidation art therapy) helps recognize, name, understand and process our inner world and how it shows up in the body.

You're a good mother and human being, Bettyanne.  It's time to nurture and explore who you are.....who you were before your mother implanted untrue scripts in your head.

It's going to be OK, ((Bettyanne.))

Lots of good support and information on this board.  We're all holding you in our hearts.

Lighter

[Bettyanne]

I realize at some point I need to let go of what my NM did to me......I see she was really a sick cookie who should of never had kids etc.
Her own childhood must of been crazy with her mother....who seem to me didn't have much up stairs.if you know what I mean.......
It was not a good situation to bring a child into.....
I realized right on as a young child something was very wrong...
If I visited with friends......and stayed a friends...house things were much different
It was like i was being raised in a circus....of monkeys to put it mildly.
The good news was when I met Bill.....
He struggled through with me with it.....because he had a crazy mother as well.
We didn't realize all of this at once but as the years passed we knew it more and more
Today I am relieved of my own family and now Bill has passed on to his family as well which sure
had emotional problems as well....drinking was a big one......Bill had 35 years of sobriety when he passed.....only one in his family
I am so grateful to have had Bill.....a normal person who went through it with me.....and a loving husband......I can't express it enough to have had him in my life all those years.
Thank you to all of you and your responses so helpful
I am trying and with time to except Bill's passing that's the hard part for me
and I will take time to figure my future too......
Big hugs to you all
Bettyanne
PS I will let go of her(mother) because she is not worth holding onto.....it's time to let go

[Hopalong]

You're doing the BEST YOU CAN, ((((Bettyanne))).

That's not just good enough, it's beautiful.

Big hugs and comfort,
Hops

[Bettyanne]

Thank you Hops......
Since I have no brothers or sisters all these years.......and I didn't even know what it felt like to have healthy parents......or at least understanding ones......
I really appreciate you......and all you have expressed to me....
so so grateful
Love, Bettyanne (((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))

[Bettyanne]

Just asking......
Have any of you been on the website

OUT of the Fog

outofthefog.website

I have found somethings, interesting on there like Narcissistic and Borderline personalities explainedB


See what you think.......Bettyanne

[Hopalong]

I've been there, Bettyanne.

I think that website is very bracing, especially when one is first uncovering all these diagnoses (and as Lighter says, discovering what "PDs" are).

Personality Disorders.

Glad you found it and hope it helps you.

hugs
Hops

[Bettyanne]

Hops my therapist recommended it to me?
Just wanted to see what you and the other members thought of it?
I found it sure explained my NM......
but my NM was a control freak.......
I just had long conversation with T about it......
I realize she/NM  did a lot of damage to me....I was too young to defend myself and I was brainwashed too???
Well....with Bill gone now I need to figure out which roads I need to go and down and NM is one to avoid....
Thanks
Bettyanne

[lighter]

I think you'll find a wonderful group of supportive people who've experienced similar issues on Out Of The Fog forum, Bettyanne.  Tell your story.  Read a lot of other people's stories who've been where you are and come out the other side.

You'll be as safe there as you are here.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

I can't remember for sure if I visited on that forum Bettyanne. I explored a lot of them, at the beginning of my journey. Mostly just reading other people's stories until I felt comfortable enough to talk myself. The value of even just reading for me, was realizing that what I went through isn't so strange, weird or rare after all. I felt less like it was my fault I was treated that way... and started to study, do my homework.

I've read so many professional articles, papers, even PhD theses when I could access them... and all those stories... over the years. It taught me an essential skill too. It taught me ways to think - vocabulary, theories, processes - about all the things I felt so intensely; knew in my feelings so intimately that eventually I began to be able to describe that part of myself. I hid all that far far away from other people because I was so ashamed. It was only years later that I finally figured out it wasn't anything I did or was responsible for that created that shame.

I was feeling shame for people who didn't feel it themselves. And because I didn't own it; I hadn't done the bad thing in the first place -- it could never be fixed. Well, IMO, that just WASN'T FAIR. So I learned how - in my own mind & feelings - to "give it back" to the people who did the things they should've been ashamed of.

Maybe you'll find your own buried treasure in other people's stories. Those bits & pieces that ring out like a clear bell - YES; I know JUST what you're talking about! Those are the things that resonate. And figuring out "what, if anything, to do about it" is much easier with several brains working through it, than just the one. They at least help you choose the path that's best for you to move on from where you are - to where you want to be.