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Alone no more--thank you Anna Freud!

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Dr. Richard Grossman:
Hi Lighter and Tupp,

One of my social worker friends/neighbors who read my book but didn’t admit that she did because she disliked it, asked me (in a dismissive tone): “How do you get your patients?’  I bring this up because even if they believed as I do that the relationship is ultimately most important, it would be difficult to persuade patients to come see you.  Understandably, most patients want a “logical” well defined strategy/mode of therapy to help them solve their problems.  In addition, the importance of “the relationship” does not fit into any current academic therapy program for the same reason—it’s not obvious, and it would be very hard to explore in a scientific way.  So, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to build an academic career around it.   As a result, I know no one who has “worked” in the same fashion I have.  It is wonderful that Anna Freud ended up 180 degrees from her father’s approach.  As you know, Sigmund Freud’s patients lay on a couch and he sat out of their view.  According to Sigmund the relationship was not (and should not) be real, but was shaped by patient “projections” based on early parent—child relationships.   Starting from this point, the world of psychotherapy got off entirely on the wrong foot, and never fully corrected itself in order to find what ultimately made the most significant difference by far in a patient’s life:  the relationship.  It’s not that other “techniques” aren’t sometimes helpful.   CBT, mindfulness, advice, etc., can have a positive effect on some people’s lives.  But the difference is, most often, relatively tiny when compared to a deep, important relationship with a caring, psychologically healthy and knowledgeable human being who is able to listen and take in another person’s world.  And so, yes, I’m glad Anna Freud acknowledged this and wrote about it at the end of her life!

Thanks for your thoughts!

Richard

Hopalong:
AMEN!!!!


--- Quote ---...the difference is, most often, relatively tiny when compared to a deep, important relationship with a caring, psychologically healthy and knowledgeable human being who is able to listen and take in another person’s world.
--- End quote ---

I've seen kind Ts in the past who definitely related to me also on an emotional level, not just a theoretical one (unless I was deluding myself, which is entirely possible). But I do know that your inspiration for your books, your plays and this board have to come from a deeply empathetic place--a beautiful and safe one.

Thank you, Doc G! The gift you've given me for almost a couple decades now has been life changing.

love
Hops

Twoapenny:

--- Quote from: Dr. Richard Grossman on March 15, 2021, 06:06:31 PM ---Hi Lighter and Tupp,

One of my social worker friends/neighbors who read my book but didn’t admit that she did because she disliked it, asked me (in a dismissive tone): “How do you get your patients?’  I bring this up because even if they believed as I do that the relationship is ultimately most important, it would be difficult to persuade patients to come see you.  Understandably, most patients want a “logical” well defined strategy/mode of therapy to help them solve their problems.  In addition, the importance of “the relationship” does not fit into any current academic therapy program for the same reason—it’s not obvious, and it would be very hard to explore in a scientific way.  So, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to build an academic career around it.   As a result, I know no one who has “worked” in the same fashion I have.  It is wonderful that Anna Freud ended up 180 degrees from her father’s approach.  As you know, Sigmund Freud’s patients lay on a couch and he sat out of their view.  According to Sigmund the relationship was not (and should not) be real, but was shaped by patient “projections” based on early parent—child relationships.   Starting from this point, the world of psychotherapy got off entirely on the wrong foot, and never fully corrected itself in order to find what ultimately made the most significant difference by far in a patient’s life:  the relationship.  It’s not that other “techniques” aren’t sometimes helpful.   CBT, mindfulness, advice, etc., can have a positive effect on some people’s lives.  But the difference is, most often, relatively tiny when compared to a deep, important relationship with a caring, psychologically healthy and knowledgeable human being who is able to listen and take in another person’s world.  And so, yes, I’m glad Anna Freud acknowledged this and wrote about it at the end of her life!

Thanks for your thoughts!

Richard

--- End quote ---

I didn't realise any of this!  I wonder if it was different here in the UK?  The first two therapists I saw - who were by far the ones who helped me the most and made such a big difference to me, and to me it was because of the relationship?  I don't know if it was meant to be, but they were the first people I'd ever really met who didn't have an expectation of how I ought to behave or what I ought to say, who encouraged me to think for myself, who sometimes gave me different perspectives to think about but never told me what I ought to do or how I should see a situation.  One felt like a caring parent and the other like a caring older sibling (which again, I don't suppose that was their intention, but for me it was a huge difference in my life).  And I think the reason I've not found therapy as satisfying or useful since that time is because all of the others I've seen have an 'approach' which basically required me to see or experience the situation differently - and I just don't find that as helpful and I don't feel I can build a relationship with them?  Hmmm.  Much for me to think about.  It seems I may have just got really lucky with those initial ones and with finding you as well?  I hadn't really realised it was such a different way of doing things.  I live in such a bubble!  Lol x

Dr. Richard Grossman:
Hi Hops and Tupps,

Thanks for your responses and sorry for the delay in getting back to you.  I’m so glad both of you found therapists who could relate to you on an emotional level—and, just as importantly, were emotionally healthy human beings!   When I think about the human beings I trained with, both faculty and students, from graduate school to my Harvard Medical School post-doc, there were so few who would who would have met these crucial criteria.  And, of course, in my day, students were taught not to make an emotional attachment to patients, but to apply techniques, whether they be psychoanalytic, cognitive behavior therapy, mindfulness, or others.  Furthermore, the need for status was a prevalent part of the characters of almost all faculty and students.  This is why I had to escape to the “therapy underground” and create a new world for myself and my patients.  Tupp, I’m not sure if you got lucky or whether the “nature” of therapy was different in your “neck of the woods”—but, again, I’m so glad you found the two therapists you did early on.  Hops, thank you so much for what you wrote!  I’m so glad my “work” in its many forms has had a significant effect on your life.   Making a significant difference in the lives of others has always been of crucial importance to me—and I’m so glad I could extend it beyond my patients.  Of course, as I’ve written before, your “work” on this message board has had a significant effect on the lives of many as well, and we have been so lucky to have you!

Richard

Twoapenny:
I'm very glad you side stepped the conventional, Dr G, and made your own way :)  I have encountered therapists since those early days who use a specific technique - CBT, mindfulness, Gestalt?  I think one of them was.  None of which I've found particularly helpful.  The two early ones I had did use specific techniques in certain situations (usually things they would teach me to help manage anxiety, depression and so on), but ultimately yes, their approach was really to help me find myself and figure out my own approach, I think.  I did feel that they genuinely cared.  One of them offered me some free sessions when I was going through a particularly bad time and couldn't afford therapy, which was very kind of her and a very caring thing to do, I thought.  The other would sometimes mention to me something she'd read that she thought I might be interested in or a film she'd watched that she thought I might like, you know those little moments that just make you feel you don't just turn up, talk, and then pay your bill.  I was very lucky with them and very lucky with the board, too! :) x

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