Author Topic: What's going on?  (Read 10405 times)

Lara

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What's going on?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2005, 06:29:12 AM »
Hi everyone, thank you again for sharing your feelings and experiences, and for understanding!
Because my friends were never able to uinderstand the total hold which my ex had over me, (and still does in some ways,) I have not shared the confusion which I feel with them for a long time now. Perhaps your idea of talking to a therapist is very wise,dear Eloise, because at the moment my reactions to what has happened just go round and ropund inside my own head.
I also like your idea, Lavender, of looking for answers in my dreams. I will certainly consider that.Shortly after we broke up I had several dreams in which he was walking away from me or being cold,but to actually ask for answers in my dreams would be something new I could try.

I really appreciate you all sharing with me the length of time it is taking you to recover from these relationships;it is sometimes hard to admit isn't it, how much these people have screwed us up;I often feel that I 'should' have got over this by now.

Please feel the warmth and care I feel for you, and the strength you have given me.Many of you here have suffered a lot more than me;my ex was never physically abusive to me, and sometimes I have trouble deciding if he was abusive to me emotionally or not. Does withdrawing and being cold for several days at a time count as abuse? Does regularly arriving an hour late count as abuse? Does lecturing someone and not listening to their opinions, but then later claiming these opinions as their own, count as abuse? Does telling someone that they are ugly, but not to him, count as abuse? Especiaal y difficult for me to decide one way or the other after getting two more 'friendly' messages over the holiday period.

Thank you again for sharing. This will be the year when we all get stronger and stronger!

Best wishes,
Lara.

BlueTopaz

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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2005, 05:42:22 PM »
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Especially difficult for me to decide one way or the other after getting two more 'friendly' messages over the holiday period.


Hi Lara,

His intent is just that.  To try to confuse you and weasel a way back into your emotions.  

Quote
And why do I feel mean, especially for not replying to his Xmas greeting, if there is a chance that he is just a total manipulative
jerk, who never had a high opinion of me?


From having read your comments, part of it might be that you don't necessarily see him as a "bad" person, yet you have chosen to ignore him, and this might make you feel a bit bad and guilty.   In other words, you seem to be struggling as to whether you see him as a "bad" person or not, so are not certain if the way you reacted to him was appropriate.  

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I sometimes wonder if this is because I don't seem able to have a consistent attitude towards him. Some days the narcissistic nature of so much of what he did (and is still doing now with these random messages?) hits me like a ton of bricks;but on other days I wonder if he was just misguided or out of his depth in the relationship.

Can anyone suggest why it is so difficult for me to say, with
Bunny, that he is just 'not a good man.'


It was, and is the same with me in not thinking "he is just not a good man" about my xN. There are different types of narcissistic behavior as well as different degrees of narcissistic behavior, from the psychopathic narcissist (the worst kind) to others. Because of this, and because of the hundreds of variables in personalities of N's, N partners and life situations, everyone's situation/experience with an N has differences.

In my case, my ex. had N traits. Because he had the emotional immaturity of a child as N's do, he behaved poorly emotionally in the relationship. Interspered with a loving, intelligent, kind, considerate soul, was someone who gave the silent treatment, was distant for weeks, perceived rejection where there was none. I walked on eggshells as not to set off any issues he might find "sensitive" (which were truly benign things), and when we needed to talk,he twisted everything around to be my fault.  We had many of the imfamous circular conversations N's are known to have, and things like gaslighting, splitting, projection (these terms are explained online) and other N ego defenses were a very regular thing.

But.... I  also saw in this person, someone who did not want to hurt, but was out of control emotionally. I saw someone who was living with so much fear inside and who was in such deep emotional pain, so much so that he developed many traits of a personality disorder. I actually saw the tormented struggle he went through to try to think and react differently on the spot in some individual interactions we had, only to find his long-time programmed gut terrors taking over, causing irrational behaviors yet again.   I was, and am sad for this, more than I am angry at him, or think badly of him.   But even the saddness I feel for him is from the safe distance of having ended the romantic relationship.

Instead of my thinking "he is not a good man", I just think & know... He is not a good man for me...

This is just my feeling for my situation, and I only mentioned it because, I'm not sure, but it sounded like it at least might be a bit like yours.  Maybe in the end you will come to the conclusion that you ex. is a "bad" person in many ways.  I just wanted to be a voice that showed a different side for anyone who might feel differently.  I have read other's situations and do see a lot more blatantly and harshly violent and abusive behavior, where I can easily see how it would have them feeling very differently about the N's in their lives.

My xN's main thing was that emotional intimacy scared the bleepers out of him, because when you open yourself up to someone on that level, you are the most vulnerable at that time.  Being vulnerable means seeing past a facade to the real person, flaws and all.   This is something that an N can't take.  The concept of non perfection = thoughts of rejection, and failure, and their false image being permeated.  

So, all this wild emotional junk came up at seemingly random times to me, when now I see there was really a "rhyme to the reason".  It was at those times that he needed to create turmoil (which he knew very well led to emotional distance) because we were getting too close emotionally for him and it was bringing about his narcissistic defenses in full force, which was excruciatingly emotionally painful for him.   In hindsight, how and why he reacted in specific situations is a lot more clear to me.  

But I also did experience anger.  I have been angry at him directly, indirectly, and vented my anger related to a lot of aspects of the whole relationship in general. That I don't think he is a bad person does not by any means, mean that I didn't have anger, or there were not consequences for his way of being.

Even with what I said, I also want add a small note to be careful regarding thinking of your ex. as misguided. We get so jumbled up inside from dealing with N's that we come out not knowing which way is up or down.   So we might be doubting our own feelings as to how bad things were, or whether some of it was our fault.  Thinking that an xN is not a bad person based on self doubts of the situation and self blame, is not an accurate or healthy thing.  If your feeling of inconsistency toward him is based on your own self doubts about how bad things were or if you could have been different, then I would say this is a slippery, and unhelpful slope to travel down.  But if you can clearly see that your xN's behavior had nothing to do with you, that there is nothing you could have done to change it, and that it was horrible, unacceptable, irrational, hurtful, unfair, etc. in and of itself, and then you wish to say he was misguided/ill and you don't find him a bad person per se, this is completely different.   This second way, is exactly how I feel about my xN.

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Is it important for recovery (as opposed to self-protection in the future) to accept categorically that we have been duped by these people? And if it is essential, can anyone tell me how I can get my brain to this conclusion


What is important to realize to move forward, I think, is that these people were and are ill with a disorder, that what happened was not our fault, and that there was or is nothing we could have done to change who they are or what they did.  Second, examining via introspection (in a non judgemental way) why we ignored red flags we saw early on, what we told ourselves that allowed us to put up with specific things, and as long as we did in many cases.  Just self healing and learning about our own internal state.  Third, to teach ourselves out of what we learned through introspetion, and what we learned in reading about personality disorders and abuse,  to recognize the red flags for future relationships.

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sometimes I have trouble deciding if he was abusive to me emotionally or not. Does withdrawing and being cold for several days at a time count as abuse? Does regularly arriving an hour late count as abuse? Does lecturing someone and not listening to their opinions, but then later claiming these opinions as their own, count as abuse?


According to literature on it, yes.  Do an online search on "signs of emotional abuse" and other keywords like this, and you will be able to get some info. regarding what it is said that constitutes abuse.

Very much wishing you the best...

BT

Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2005, 11:02:13 PM »
Quote from: Lara
Does withdrawing and being cold for several days at a time count as abuse? Does regularly arriving an hour late count as abuse? Does lecturing someone and not listening to their opinions, but then later claiming these opinions as their own, count as abuse? Does telling someone that they are ugly, but not to him, count as abuse? Especiaal y difficult for me to decide one way or the other after getting two more 'friendly' messages over the holiday period.


Yes, being withdrawing/cold for days at a time is cruel. It's very controlling for one thing. Q: was he willing to admit it was cruel? Was he willing to admit that it was not a productive way to behave? If yes, then he has some integrity and maturity. If no, then you are with someone who doesn't mind hurting you terribly. If he was "okay" with this behavior then we are looking at someone who lacks empathy and who feels little or no inhibitions about hurting his partner. In a relationship both people are supposed to respect each other's vulnerable feelings. I would call him "very selfish and immature" according to the above description. And I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of his immaturity.


bunny

bludie

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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2005, 09:18:17 AM »
Quote
my ex was never physically abusive to me, and sometimes I have trouble deciding if he was abusive to me emotionally or not.


I grappled with this, too, Lara. The book I am currently reading by Lundy Bancroft: Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men delves into this in Chapter 5 ("How Abuse Begins")

Not to quote the entire chapter but she goes onto say that: "The lines where subtler kinds of mistreatment end and abuse begins includes the following actions:"
    He retaliates against you for complaining about his behavior
    He tells you that your objections to his mistreatment are your own problem
    He gives apologies that sound insincere or angry, and he demands that you accept them
He blames you for the impact of his behavior
It's never the right time or the right way to bring things up
He undermines your progress in life

He denies what he did
He justifies his hurtful or frightening acts or says that "you made him do it"

He touches you in anger or puts you in fear in other ways
He coerces you into having sex or sexually assaults you
His controlling, disrespectful, or degrading behavior is a pattern
You show signs of being abused
SIGNS OF BEING ABUSED COULD INCLUDE:
Are you afraid of him?
Are you getting distant from friends or family because he makes those relationships difficult?
Is your level of energy and motivation declining, or do you feel depressed?
Is your self-opinion declining, so that you are always fighting to be good enough and prove yourself?
Do you find yourself constantly preoccupied with the relationship and how to fix it?
Do you feel like you can't do anything right?
Do you feel like the problems in the relationship are all your fault?
Do you repeatedly leave arguments feeling like you've been messed with but can't figure out exactly why?[/list:u]

I'm no therapist and this may be over-analysis, however, the ones I highlighted were very applicable in my case. I would also add to the list chronic lying. This has a way of keeping one off balance until discovering the truth. I actually thought my ex-N was an honest person because I try to be. One of the horrors in the aftermath of our breakup was to discover how dishonest he had been.

Each case is different. And as I said, Lara, I've grappled with whether I made mountains out of molehills. However, another telling factor was my friends' feedback. Once I came out of the gas, got honest with them, and shared some of what was really going on, they were appalled. I got so lost -- my perceptions became distorted -- that it was hard to see the forest from the tree for a while. 20/20 hindsight has made this much clearer. So what were your friends and family's reactions toward your ex-N? That could be a clue.

Above all, Lara, I think it's good that you've dismissed and ignored his attempts to contact you. That's most important. Keep us posted.

Best,
bludie
Best,

bludie

Lara

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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2005, 05:28:19 PM »
THANK YOU SO MUCH.I am thinking over all your wonderful replies and will be in touch soon.

Sincerest thanks again,
Best wishes,
Lara.

Lara

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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2005, 08:11:56 AM »
Hello Everyone.
Thank you again for all the thought you put into your replies to me.They have been so useful because not only have they given me a lot to think about, but they have helped to break the loop I was in where my own thoughts were so repetitive and just going round in circles.

Blue Topaz, when I read your comments I was comforted because your situation sounds as if it was similar to mine.You also seem to have looked inside my head and read my thoughts! As you say, one problem I have is that if my ex's behaviour was not THAT bad, then I feel very mean in ignoring his messages.It is difficult for me to disentangle what was actually going on between us;as I examine different things that happened during the r/ship, many of them look different to me now than how they did at the time. I was so totally mesmerised by him that I accepted everything he said to me at face value,but maybe he was conning me from the start.If so he was certainly extremely convincing. I did not have an outsider's view to validate my glowing opinion of him, not because he tried to cut me off from my friends, but because I cut MYSELF off from them.I was aware immediately I met him that he was 'making' me (I know it was my choice really) act completely out of character. I did not want my friends to tell me that I must be crazy to do the things I was doing,eg to give him large amounts of money,to spend all my time trying to sort out his problems, even at risk to my self.

I still have to sort out in my head how he can send me these festive messages as if we are friends;he seems to have forgotten (?) the fact that when I asked him for help, he was happy to walk away and let me get on with it. How long do you think he will continue to send these messages at random, if I never respond to them?

Bunny, in reply to your questions,when he used to withdraw for several days at a time,he did not do it in response to anything in particular I  had done;it was more like he had gone into a depression.He told me that he had always done this;but no,he didn't show any awareness of how it made me feel.I remember one day we had arranged to meet at a restaurant;he was in one of these 'moods' and we sat in silence for a good hour.When I tried to start a conversation he was monosyllabic in reply or grunted at me.When I told him that if he wasn't going to say anything I might as well go and do something else, he seemed totally surprised, and unable to understand why I would want to go. If I ever told him that he was selfish,he always said that that was how he was, and he couldn't change.

Bludie, thank you for posting the list of abusive behaviour;I am trying so hard to look at it objectively.It's really difficult...I spent so long looking at him through rose-coloured spectacles. Knowing that you understand helps me a lot. And like you, I was also lied to...some of them I found out about;I will never know now how much else was not true either.

Blue Topaz,your suggestion for the steps I can take to get myself through this and out is just what I need.
I am so thoroughly fed up of feeling this way about somebody who in many ways was so bad for me. I really want this r/ship to be a chapter in my life that is closed, but at the moment it comes into my head far too often. I sometimes feel that this r/ship has really traumatised me like no other in my life.

I know I'm repeating myself,but thanks so much again for your support,BT, Bunny and Bludie. There are many other comments in your posts that I would like to think about and respond to in the future, but I have to close for now as I have to go to work.

Warmest wishes to you all, today and for the future,
Lara.

bludie

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What's going on?
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2005, 09:13:57 AM »
Quote
I still have to sort out in my head how he can send me these festive messages as if we are friends;he seems to have forgotten (?) the fact that when I asked him for help, he was happy to walk away and let me get on with it. How long do you think he will continue to send these messages at random, if I never respond to them?


How many more text messages has he sent? Is it possible to block him entirely from your cell phone? He'll stop sooner or later if he gets no response whatsoever. My ex-N had a very short attention span.

Quote
I sometimes feel that this r/ship has really traumatised me like no other in my life.


I can totally relate. Even my divorce wasn't as painful or detrimental as the breakup with my ex-N. I think it's because this N-relationship triggered childhood baggage plus I invested heavily both financially and emotionally - not to mention the changes it brought about in my daughter's life. I see my way clear by realizing that this relationship holds the key to many insights and opportunities for personal growth. Y'know -- the no pain no gain mantra -- at least this is what I am telling myself!

Lara, you are truly making progress. Don't give into the messages or give up on yourself.
Best,

bludie

Anonymous

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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2005, 09:43:38 AM »
Dear Lara,

What are you doing with his messages? I've found that the sooner I delete them the less I am tempted to reply.

Pearl

onlyrenting1

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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2005, 11:32:39 AM »
Laura,

I'm reading and feeling your pain. I get this sinking feeling, thinking about How I'm trying to get to the place of ending my 26 yrs with an N.

Guest said
Quote
I kept finding parallels between him and my mom -


When I first met my N, we both had hurt feelings about our mom's.
This may have been one reason why we had a connection.

I'm working on myself, not allowing myself to fix and forgive. Going around the same mountain expecting the road will change. With an N, getting off their mountain is the only way to move forward.  

He can be mean like my mother and so I guess I became numb to this and decided I could deal with it.

Now that I found a Name for these types, It has allowed me to read and understand so I can move forward.

Leaving before there was this understanding of the N, may have left me comming back over and over. I want a clean break, I get one chance and need to make my frame of mind, so I don't come back.

My mother issuies are minor because I have NO Contact.
I left home and Jummped in the frying pan with MY-N. Decided I was going to walk thru the fire and come out the other end never to return into another frying pan.
This is my goal, I'm older and wiser and with reading the stories here I know I will learn how.

Lara, I don't know with having children with an N, if it's possible to do this. I have my work cut out for me.
I'm worried that I will have the great pull to go back, as I see so many others have. It helps to keep reading and trying what works for others

Keep sharing......onlyrenting

Cadbury

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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2005, 02:46:47 PM »
Hi Lara,

I've been grappling with my ex-N for a while and so haven't replied sooner, but your situation seems very similar to mine in the way that they have treated us. I don't know whether to be pleased to find another example of this kind of behaviour, so justifying what I have gone through or sad that someone else has had to suffer the same! I don't know if that makes sense or not, but there you go.

I don't know what words of advice I can offer, just that my ex-N has done everything yours has so I know what you are going through. I still have some contact with him due to the fact that I am expecting his child. I feel pathetic and sad that I allow him to reduce me to a wreck still, yet at the same time wonder if I'm not being too harsh on him. So I think that all those painful things are just a part of the disorder they have and not our fault. If you ever want to talk then email me or something, if you just want to share experiences etc. Maybe together we may be stronger!!

October

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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2005, 07:09:22 PM »
Quote from: Om Hadi
 Now I have PTSD(Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) because of them.    

Om Hadi



I also have ptsd.  I just wanted to ask whether you visit a support site specifically for ptsd sufferers, as well as this one.  I can recommend a very safe, very supportive place, if you need one, either to find out more about the condition or just to 'swim with the other dolphins'.  I hope posting this address is allowed.

I am not sure if the link will work, but I hope it does.      :?  

http://www.bein.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?

Sorry, Lara.  Not ignoring your posts, but I agree with the other replies you have already had, and can't add much to them; just more of the same.  Grappling with my own detaching problems, on various fronts.  But wishing you well.

Anonymous

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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2005, 11:41:35 PM »
Quote
I did not have an outsider's view to validate my glowing opinion of him, not because he tried to cut me off from my friends, but because I cut MYSELF off from them.I was aware immediately I met him that he was 'making' me (I know it was my choice really) act completely out of character. I did not want my friends to tell me that I must be crazy to do the things I was doing,eg to give him large amounts of money,to spend all my time trying to sort out his problems, even at risk to my self.


It was the same for me.  I, not he whatsoever, cut myself off to a degree as not to have to discuss the relationship with friends & family who I knew would really be surprised at me.  I felt a sense of shame around how I was allowing myself to be treated but then always just pushed it out of my mind.  It was a bit easier to keep quiet about it because my best friends (who would likely ask most, and just know when something was wrong) and my family live 5 hours away.  The friends I have here are of a different caliber and it was a bit easier to be more vague.

Lending money was never an issue in my case (he has loads more than me) but just the same I "sold my soul" emotionally, 100 times over.  Like you I also idolized my xN, and just having that much awe for someone alone, not to mention the way I let myself get treated because of putting him on a pedistal, was out of what I thought my character was too.  I was so surprised at myself yet at the same time I couldn't break out of feeling and being that way.

After it all, I realized that it both was and wasn't out of my character.  It was not like the part that was very conscious to me, the part where I could describe myself and thoughts about things.  It was like the part that was buried deeper in my subconsious and not as obvious to me. The subconscious part was me just as much as the conscious part was, but I just couldn't see it.  It is only becoming more well known to me as I continue to introspect.

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I still have to sort out in my head how he can send me these festive messages as if we are friends;he seems to have forgotten (?) the fact that when I asked him for help, he was happy to walk away and let me get on with it.


Many N's have trouble with, or no empathy, and therefore have no true emotional investment. For some of them relationship interactions are more of a mechanical process (get what I want) void of any emotional pondering.  I think with some N's it just does not even register with them that they have or are hurting anyone.  They are way too self absorbed and disordered in perception.

On the other hand, I think some N's do know.  I think my x with N traits did have empathy for the emotional hurt he caused me, but to admit it most of the time would feel like a criticism on him and feel like being very vulnerable, which would open up all the N defenses.  It was less painful for him to project blame onto me or completely ignore the fact he'd caused that much pain in the first place.  Just act like nothing happened.   I don't know which you feel might be true in your case, or maybe you
have some other ideas, too.

Quote
How long do you think he will continue to send these messages at random, if I never respond to them?


I think it depends on the individual.  It seems that many try for a few months, and some even for a couple of years, but with contact much more sporadic as time goes on.

Other N's might go away quick enough, particularly if they find a new person in their lives.  But then when you least expect it, they might pop up again years later!  When whatever relationship they are in is over and they have no other "options."

Some violent N's seem to never give up.  They stalk and harrass afterwards.  But I think you can many times (with exceptions) forsee the potential beforehand with these types. I was sure my xN would not be this type, and he has not been.

Best...

BT

Lara

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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2005, 06:53:08 AM »
Hello and thank you! It felt so good to log in this morning (I don't have regular computer access) and hear from you all. With so many aspects of this situation I have felt that my feelings and reactions were bizarre and crazy.I wish that none of you had suffered these things,especially when you sound such fine,loving people, but there is comfort and real hope in being able to share these things.

BT, Cadbury,Renting,Pearl ,October and Bludie,you are all in my thoughts.I really feel for those of you who because of children,have to maintain some level of contact with the Ns. I liked your comment,Renting, about getting off 'their mountain' to find healing. For a long time I have believed that the fact that I
a) had no contact with my ex,and
b) could not understand or relate to a lot of his behaviour,
was an obstacle to my recovery.But I'm now just STARTING to realise that I can only make sense of it by looking at the situation now, the facts and not the history.

I do delete his text messages quite quickly Pearl. I'm not tempted to reply to them but when they arrive there is a period of time when a stupid part of me begins to hope that he has feelings for me again. It's crazy;I fear getting them,but also fear never getting another one! (I have enquired,but it's not possible to block particular numbers from my cell phone.Changing the number would also be difficult as I work for a large company where a large number of people use it.)

Thanks for your comments about lack of empathy,BT. It shakes me that he seems to have added me to a list of people he can blithely send Happy New Year messages,with pictures of champagne corks popping, and signed 'Lots of Love.' What planet is he living on?

I so appreciate your company as we go through these experiences. Take care everyone.

Warmest thoughts,
Lara.

Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2005, 08:17:38 PM »
> I'm not tempted to reply to them

Good for you, Lara!  I was weak on New Year and replied  :oops: .  Then I found myself in a shaken world where I've started to doubt what is good and what is bad.    

> when they arrive there is a period of time when a stupid part of me
> begins to hope that he has feelings for me again

What kind of feelings do you have in mind? (Forgive me if this sounds rude).  Can you be sure that he really had some?

Last two weeks I was working on myself. I was filtering what was known for sure - facts that I've found about his life and his actions -  from all the staff that he implied, or simply lied about, or I assumed.      

Take care and keep in touch,
Pearl

Guest_NewDay

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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2005, 04:02:42 PM »
I have been reading and learning from this MB, so want to thank all of the honest, caring, healing people here for what I have drawn from your collective wisdom.  

I am adding to this thread because it struck such a chord with me and I had to chime in.  Someone in this thread said that the breakup with a N person was worse than their divorce ... and I can fully relate to that.  Not only is my breakup with my exN worse, but I did not even love him as much as I loved my ex-husband.  I kept wondering and wondering WHY is this breakup destroying me, why did this relationship devatate me, why is it taking so long for me to recover from someone who cheated, lied, was NOT the person I thought he was, why can't I just dump him the way he dumped me?!!!!!  

And then I began to find out about the traits of NPD and suddenly I have felt a weight lifted off my shoulders.  All of the pain he brought me, the frustration, the way he made me feel like I just wanted him to GET OFF me, because he was so hard on me, teasing me, copy catting me, making fun of me, all at MY expense over and over and over.  And how I sat there laughing it off, being a good sport, when all the while, feeling like there was something horribly wrong.  I now understand.

I have also been away from my exN (lived together for 6 years) for well over a year and am just now feeling a sense of recovery.  I can fully relate to the length of time it takes, despite the rationalization that goes through ones head, it takes understanding to fully let go.  Now that I feel I finally understand what happened, who this person was and was NOT, I am prepared to let go.  

But there is compassoion in my case.  I can't tell you all the times I said "for some reason, I just feel sorry for him" ... dunno, but it was as though I saw him as someone who was fighting demons and will fight demons for the rest of his life in his head.  That is where the compassion comes from despite the way he hurt and destroyed me.  I will move on and find happiness again, and eventhough he is with someone else now, I don't "buy" that he is happy, b/c I truly don't think he is capable of it.  

Sorry for rambling.  I am truly appreciative of all the insights here and wish you all recovery and healing.  Thanks to Lara for this thread, too.

Terry