The Letter I couldn't Send

[Portia]

Children should accept responsibility for their wrongs and make them right even if they temporarily feel guilt and shame. To not allow this, we believe, in looking back, that we created people who could do no wrong in their own eyes, were entitled, and grandouse. So, yes, if we are guilty, this is the place where the mistake happened. However, I believe that somewhere along the way the girls themselves made some choices that colored their personalities.

Okay I’m shocked here. Why? Read what you wrote. “Children should accept responsibility” and “if we are guilty” and “the girls themselves made some choices”. Now you think the kids are responsible but not you, not at all (IF?)? Where is your sense of responsibility here? Where is the idea that in any conflict nobody is ‘right’ and nobody is ‘wrong’? Where is the idea of shared responsibility? Perhaps it was some of your responsibility and some of the choices they made, a mixture of both. “where the mistake happened” the words we use tell some truth. Why haven’t you said “where we made a mistake”? You remove the agent from this and make it impersonal. Why.

I wonder if anyone out there can relate to this thought. Where did your N’s come from? Were their parents abusive or were they abused themselves? I would be curious to find out if generational abuse exposes itself in this way also? If it does, it seems it goes around and around and around. How does it ever stop?

Yes I can relate. I can see abuse going back several generations. I can see that I would have been an abusive parent but I simply didn’t have children. That may be a severe way of stopping the abuse but it’s happened with me, by default. I don’t think I’d be abusive now. I know much more. But that’s the problem, when we’re raising children, some of us don’t have the knowledge that comes through living. Some do, they recognise their abuse, think seriously about it and equip themselves with as much knowledge and learning as possible. I didn’t recognise abuse until a few years ago. How does it stop? Evolution I guess. We can’t keep having the arms trade as the largest trade on the planet for ever. We’ll kill ourselves off. Some people somewhere are going to either change the way we run our societies, or we’ll die off. So change is inevitable, one way or another. And abuse of each other and abuse of the planet are the same ways of thinking. I think.

[Portia]

Upon arriving, she would tell me what she wanted me to do. When I did it she would then proceed to throw it in the garbage.

Demanding nothing. I felt like a puppy dog accepting crumbs from the master’s table.

Unfortunately I can see that while you think this is a good way to behave, I don’t think it is. You don’t stand up for yourself and you allow your daughter to treat you like a servant. This is unhealthy and not a good role model. I’m serious, this seems like it could be a real problem, please consider it. The role of martyr or victim might be attractive, but it’s very harmful to all concerned. And it is a role based on power. It might not be so strong in you as to be a huge problem, but what you’ve said above indicates it. I’m not into saying you’re sick and that’s that. You may be a bit sick in this area and maybe you should consider it and overcome it? For your thoughts.

So I repeated that I loved her as she ran all the way home to her apt. with me calling louder the further she got that I loved her.

This is very scary to me. This is how an emotionally-enmeshed drama plays out. Very unhealthy. Your daughter is not your emotional lover. "Obviously" you may think, but not that obvious from the description above. Your daughter is your child. It’s good to behave responsibly with our children, by not clinging to them, not demanding from them for our own ends and not manipulating them for our own ends. Although many do. I’m trying to shock you into looking at what you’ve written and see if you can see it differently. What would you have thought if your mother – or father - behaved like this with you? Or your neighbour's family?

[Portia]

The future looks bleak as far as the girls are concerned but I’m still in love with my husband of 31 years and he is with me.

You seem to have written them off. You don’t seem to love them unconditionally? That means loving them whatever. Regardless of what they do to you. Loving them because they exist. A previous post referred … where was it … about you always being their parents no matter what. You can’t just give up on them. They’re still your children. It was the Guest on page 1 who also said:

Good for you for not sending such a letter. It will only cause more pain and I doubt you want to give them that.

That was my point to your husband. I wanted to hear that the reason you didn’t send the letter is not just because it would have backfired on you, but very importantly, because you care about them and their feelings. Because you can empathise with them. Because you love them and don’t want to hurt them. I wanted to hear this reason. And I didn’t and haven’t.

We have told them we take responsibility for every mistake we made, our problems. We have asked forgiveness and everything we could think of. No, we haven't lost our children because we were too stuborn or proud or because we won't accept them as they are. We do and always have. There is something else going on here.

“because we won't accept them as they are”. But you won’t will you? You won’t accept them as they are, otherwise you wouldn’t be here. You want them to be what you want them to be. They’re not. They’re different to what you want. And they’re perhaps ill, unstable and unhappy. Perhaps they are not NPD? Have you considered that you might be incorrect? We see what we want to see. I am sorry for your situation and I am also sorry for theirs.

Thank you Portia for your insight and sharing your knowledge on the subject of N's.

I wonder if you will thank me now. I think you might be angry or upset with me but that’s okay by me. And my knowledge isn’t really knowledge. Sure I’ve read up on the subject but don’t take what I say as the ‘truth’. We each have our own ways of deciding what the ‘truth’ is and we have to try and respect that we all see things differently, even psychologists and scientists and governments etc.
 
for both of you:
Please read the thread entitled ‘Narcissism’ for a balanced view of changing NPD behaviour. I say behaviour rather than thinking, but we really don’t know. We don’t have enough evidence and almost nothing is black and white, there are unknowns everywhere. That thread has so much compassion.

Be very careful of what you say, your children are not grown yet.

Not good. This sounds like a warning. Not helpful to Ellie. What was the motivation behind writing this?

I love you very much and feel your pain more than you can imagine.

I hear assumptions about what Ellie can imagine. You don’t know and never will know what Ellie can imagine! (I think.)

Take care both of you. I‘ve written because I’m interested in you and think you’re good-intentioned human beings, which I like. Some of my words may be harsh too because they set off childhood stuff in me. But maybe that will help you? I don’t know, bye for now P

[Anonymous]

Just curious, Portia. Are you a parent?

[Portia]

ummm why?

[Anonymous]

i ask because i think it's an important part of knowing what it feels like to have a child spurn you - for wahtever reason

[Portia]

I’ve not had “a child spurn” me yet. But then I wouldn’t be worried about how I FELT, I’d be worried about how the CHILD FELT. Does that answer your question guest?

[Anonymous]

no but thank you for the response

[Portia]

Last one for now. Question:

Which hurts more – being rejected by your child? Or being rejected by your parent?

Which has the longer-lasting effects?

You know the Beatles song, “She’s leaving home?” The line where the mother cries “How could she does this to me?”

Why didn’t the mother cry “what did I do to hurt her so much that she feels she has to leave?”

I doubt that the perfect parents exist. We’re all human, we’re all fallible, we can only do our best. You too. Does doing our best include using our brains to think and empathise – imagine what another person is experiencing?

[Ellie as guest]

MyhusbandandI and MyWifeandI,

I know my post came across harsh. I didn't want to acuse, but it came out I could not stop the words and feelings. It was as if my parents were writing asking why I didn't love them anymore. But here's my 2 cents after reading the later postings.

My H and I have spent the past 2 years wondering what comes next. We have refused to be enmeshed with church for over 5 years now and have been so busy with kids sports and school and life that we realized we were forgetting ourselves along the way. In doing this form of thinking was when I stumbled upon the realization that my Nparents tried to trap me into their world so many times because I and my siblings were all they had. They lived their lives around us. They only made choices for us they wanted - never considered our wants, but every move in their mind was for their children.

When we grew up and moved away, they were hurt that we had the nerve to pull up roots and explore a life for ourselves. Sure college was ok, but leaving town, being on our own, never needing them anymore was more than they could take. That's when the adult to adult-child abuse started. Because I didn't need them as a parent anymore, they wanted to punish me.

When I married and moved to Alaska, they took it personally because they needed to be needed.

When I had my first child and refused to let them take him for their own, they said I didn't love them enough.

When we moved back to their state, but refused to live in their town, they took it personally. When I had 2 more children and knew how to be a mother and didin't need them anymore in that realm, they took it personally.

When we moved across the country they took it personally.

The trend here is that when you enmesh yourself too much with your kids and depend on them to continue to bring you happiness later in life, when they are just discovering their own lives, they can become angry, feel stalked, feel smothered. And the reaction to a parent can be a mature discussion, or can be a child lashing out because they want to grow up and be an adult themself, but feel their parent pulling them back, begging to be needed.

An adult child does not want their parent to act like a needy child begging them to be loved and needed. They want to see their parent move on as mature adults and let the adult child discover their own lives. When the adult child feels stable they will return, but do not want to be shamed or reminded of their weaknesses as a child. They want to be discovered as another adult, respected for having reached this season in their life and addressed and respected as any other adult in the parents lives.

That does not happen very much. My MIL treats my H and I just like the last paragraph and we love spending time with her. My Nparents treat me husband and I as 2 year olds and we refuse to be around them.

Who do you think we want to spend time with. Who do you think we want around our children?

After my H and I discovered we needed to plan a life for ourselves for when our children do not need us anymore, we stopped at that moment depending on them for our happiness. We started pulling away a little and continue today pulling away, forcing our children to start making their own decisions, forcing them to not be at our heels needing us for entertainment. We started planning vacations without them in the near future.

They will leave us soon and we do not want to look back and say we lived our entire life for our children and they left and do not need us anymore - bad, bad children. We want to say, they left, we're free again, and lets go have some fun!

We do not care what anyone around us thinks about our decisions. We are still responsibile parents, but will not allow our children at this point in their lives to be 100% dependent on us.

We bought Harleys and plan on exploring the nation on 2 wheels over the next few decades. Our kids are jealous of the bikes, saying we love the bikes more than them because we will go on rides without them. Guess what - I'd rather they see we are separate individuals now rather than later in life and have the issues you now face. They are getting over this little jealousy, but there will be others. The thing is, we don't care if they do not approve of our decisions fro our lives. It our life - theirs is their life.

My kids will have kids and they will be my grandchildren. But I am not planning my future living with and around grandchildren. I don't know where my kids will live - near or far away. I do not want to be let down thinking I was to be the nearby granny taking care of the little ones. To tell you the truth, the church people I grew up with think this way. And my mother thinks I am lesser of a mother because I do not want to raise my grandchildren. I want my kids to raise their own kids. My mother stole and adopted my sister's child because she doesn't want us girls to grow up and taking our children is a way to deny we are adults and mothers.

I see ways in my daughter that mimick my mother and sister. I have to leave the room because I want to scream at my daughter to stop being my mother. But, my daughter has to make her choices - whether to act in a way not acceptable to her family and friends, or to be loving and kind. I hope she will be loving and kind. I love my daughter dearly, but if she decides to follow a pattern like my parents, I will put a distance between us, but I will always love her. I will never give up loving her but I also will not beg her to change. But my daughter knows that! That is the difference. She does not want to be ailienated. She makes an effort to swing back to us because we will not support any form of demanding children, nasty, violent attitudes, martyr personality, or any other ways that are harmful to others.

We are teaching our kids, and ourselves to become separate individuals. Sho knows what the outcome will be. But...... we will have our lives still and will not try to follow our children for our happiness.

[Ellie as guest]

More thoughts:

1. My children are not a reflection of me. What they become or do with their lives is not a reflection of what I taught them at home. If they choose a different road, or mimick our lives, it doesn't matter. It just proves they are seperate individuals allowed to think for themselves - AND - accept the consequesnces of their actions and decisions.

2. As my children gorw into young adults, I vow to never use them for my gain or entertainment, nor will allow them to use me for their gain or entertainment.

3. My children are allowed to have different views than my views. I will respect that they have different views. No more would I engage in a discussion about religion or politics with a co-worker with opposing views, than I would engage in a discussion about religion or politics with my child who has an opposing view. This is grounds for conflict that can be avoided if not allowed to be brought up in conversation.

4. I will assist my children in life long decisions only if they seek my assistance, then I will not hold it personally if they choose another path. This again proves they are a seperate individual with the ability to make decisions on their own after considering other options.

5. I will not give up my time to run to a child's side at their demand unless it is an emergency, anymore than I would do this for a friend. I will follow the golden rule, as is already followed in our family. If my child is giving and giving and wants something, we will be giving and giving. But if my child is a taker and demands things from us - tough sheat!

6. I will continue to praise my children through their adults lives just as I praise them now. They never grow too old to be told how wonderful they are. BUT, I will stop my critique of their lives and actions and decisions when they leave home and are no longer dependent on me for financial support. I can think what I want, but will not discuss my thoughts with them if it brings on conflict. If my child chooses to live at home as a young adult, they will assist in the financial support of the family and will never get a free ride. I will help with college tuition as long as they are trying to do something with their life. If they stop trying, I sto giving.

7. As long as my children are under the age of 18, I will continue to be their mother, their full support, their guide, their companion, their helper. BUT I will never attempt to be my child's friend. There is no place in a parents life for befriending their child. There is plenty of room for love, understanding, compassion, companionship, guidance, etc. But never will I let trying to be a friend stand in the way of parenting.

Just a side note on that thought. Many times my daughter has said to me - "you're not my best friend anymore" or "you're not acting like a friend". I shout hallelujah! and say - "I don't want to be your friend. That job is for kids your age. I am your mother. That is my job". My daughter has written me hate notes when she is mad. It hurts. I call it practice for later in life. I know she is lashing out. If I had tried that with my mother, I'd have been beaten. I actually take the note to my daughter and explain that if she indeed hates me, then I'm busy later when she wants a ride to a friends house or to a sports event. I tell her I will spend my money buying myself something rather than buying her new clothes or shoes. I tell her I can be just as bitchy back to her as she is being to me and when she wants to be nice again, I will be nice. AND I stick to it! That way I do not hold grudges and she gets the message and we move on.

My sons do the male thing, they are around and are sweet and loving young men when they want something from me. But when they are just fine, they are not around or thankful or loving. Ya know what - its the gender! It's not personal! That's just the way most males are and I let them be who they are. I praise them for being loving and helpful more than when they ignore me, but I can't nor do I want to change them from who they are.

[MywifeandI]

I woke up this morning and checked to see if there were any responses to my wife’s post. I read Portia’s  response – it speaks for itself.

When my wife awoke I told her that her post had a reply. She asked what was it? I told her that had been assaulted ah peppered and ah roasted.

The guest after Portia asked Portia this.

Guest: Just curious, Portia. Are you a parent?

Portia’s  answer was: “ummm why?”

Guest: I ask because I think it's an important part of knowing what it feels like to have a child spurn you - for whatever reason

Portia: I’ve not had “a child spurn” me yet. But then I wouldn’t be worried about how I FELT, I’d be worried about how the CHILD FELT. Does that answer your question guest?

Guest: no, but thank you for the response

Portia would not answer the question because she knew why it was being asked.

When Portia was roasting my wife and her intentions, she answered the question for us.

Quoting  Portia's response:  Yes I can relate. I can see abuse going back several generations. I can see that I would have been an abusive parent but I simply didn’t have children. That may be a severe way of stopping the abuse but it’s happened with me, by default. I don’t think I’d be abusive now. I know much more. But that’s the problem, when we’re raising children, some of us don’t have the knowledge that comes through living.

Now I think I know how a pregnant woman must feel when a male gynecologist tells her how she is or isn’t supposed to feel. He has read about it but he has never been there to actually know what she is feeling. He can only suppose.

It is kind of like the arm chair quarter back yelling at the players on the TV that they should have used this play or that play when he has never even stepped onto the playing field.

The comments from this post have let us know that we must remain silent because the parent is always wrong. For this knowledge we are grateful.

To the mothers out there who are on the playing field of life and have had their teenagers triangling against them, even triangling parent against parent. We know that you know that triangulation is not your fault. It is a means for your children to get their own way and to move events  to their liking.

I hope others do not become afraid to post here because  of  hard critiques from those who have never been on the playing field.

After being emotionally slapped for three years, caring how they felt and trying our best to fix it only to have everything we did turned into Narcissistic supply against us, It is sort of hard to continue to care  and worry 24-7 about how they are feeling.  After the manipulation we have been through the last three years, I guess I am a bit tired of trying to figure out what they are thinking next. Sorry if it seems that we are unfeeling. We are worn out from the pain of feeling in this vicious circle. We have literally gone through hell, lost a couple of years of our lives, cried until we were sick. We have just begun to heal to the point that we are not having anxiety attacks on a regular basis. Many, many nights we have been sleepless, walking the floor with concern  over how our children were feeling and why. And to come on this post and be attacked by people who like to play the devil’s advocate is the  end. We have never stop being concerned with our children. We will never stop loving them. But we are exhausted.
I think I am about ready to check out.
Thanks for all the help.

This is not a pity party, it is just that My  wife and I have some living left to do and we are going to do it.

Ellie we just saw your beautiful reply  and again you are exactly speaking our feelings. This is where we are now also. Not because we have stopped loving and caring but because we must go on and make a life of our own. We also have our own interests and hobbies. Our children left the nest more than 10 years ago. In that time we had an unemeshed relationship with them. They have lived at least 400 miles from us during all that time. It is only the last 3 years that this behavior has presented itself.  We, like you and your husband are planning to see a bit of this country, but in a Buick, not a Harley. We wish you and yours well.


Best of Wishes to each and all
MywifeandI with MyhusbandandI

[serena]

Hi Mr and Mrs!!

I think you've been treated a bit harshly.  I have to say it is with the best motivation from people (like myself) whose lives have been blighted by Narcissism.

I don't understand - like you - how sympathy can be given to N lovers and N children but not to N parents.  After all, every N HAS a parent(s).

Although I have a degree in Psychology, what I believe isn't necessarily backed up by peer review journals etc.  I happen to think that those of us who surviveNarcissism have MORE empathy, kindness, love and decency than the population at large.  I don't understand this?

I would also like to add that my Mother was dreadfully spoiled as a child (and only girl).  I think this has a huge amount to do with Narcissism i.e. these 'children' always get what they want, always have their demands met so have no reason to develop emotions such as empathy or compassion.  When they grow up and face the real world and their complex needs aren't met totally, their Narcissism comes to the fore.

I reiterate what I said earlier about believing religion played a malignant part in this saga.  I'm NOT anti-religion, I am against people usingreligion to further their own ends.  This happened me and my mother's twisted view of Catholicism was a weapon she used to dole even more guilt into me.  

There is lots of advice on this board how to completely disengage from N people.  I think both of you would do well to heed it.  If your daughters are as Narcissistic as they seem - mentally cut the ties, put yourselves beyond their reach and enjoy the rest of your lives together.

[Anonymous]

Just remembering what I wrote and wondering if I went too far and I remembered I wrote this:

I think you might be angry or upset with me but that’s okay by me.

Whoa. Think I better say, what I meant is: IF you are angry or upset with me and you want to express those feelings back to me – vent at me if you like – that will be okay by me. I won’t ‘retaliate’ or attack you (but I reserve the right to defend my self okay?). But I will listen and I’ll stick around to listen and comment if you want. Wanted to clarify that. Portia

[Anonymous]

Ah. Well, I did say please vent at me. But you vented about me. You talked about me instead of to me. Want to talk to me? Portia