recent realization that ex is N

[miaxo guest]

Glad I found this message board.  Would appreciate any feedback regarding my situation.

I have been divorced for over 4 years and have been dealing with an EX from H*ll.  I could not comprehend how he had no regard for anything including his own children and how he was always willing to discard people as if they were used tissues.  

Last week I was on a step family message board reading someone else's post regarding the symptoms of narcissism.  Since reading the post, I have read everything I could get my hands on regarding the personality disorder and was absolutely floored!!  It's as if I am reading literature that used my ex as a case study.  Everything about the disorder fits my ex to a T.  He appears to be a text book example of N.  All these years and now I finally have some understanding as to why he behaves the way he does.  

I am relieved but scared at the same time b/c he seems to be escalating and I am concerned for my two children who visit with him EOWE (ages 4 and 7).  Background: We were married for seven years.  First four we were kid free and things were fairly calm...occasional outbursts of rage from him and ongoing paranoia...especially at his job but nothing to get divorced over. In between he would spout off grandoise plans that involved inventions and moves to exotic places. Well, at the four year mark my daughter was born and that is when the Sh*t hit the fan.  He detached and never bonded with her and became increasingly paranoid and rageful.  Oops! Two years later my son was born and that was the straw that broke the camel's back.  He literally went crazy.  Raging and destroying property and cussing all the time until I finally confronted him about his behavior (three months pregnant).  He told me he wasn't meant for the "married life" etc....and he wasn't meant for the common routines of children,etc.  Shortly thereafter he left and a nasty divorce ensued.

Since then he has brief periods of quiet that are usually followed by sneak attacks on me which involve litigation to reduce child support etc. Presently, we are engaged in yet another legal battle regarding visitiation.  

How can I get him diagnosed as N?  Should parents that are N only be allowed supervised visitation?  I can honestly say that he has no feelings for his children but uses them as tools.  My 7 yo already has sensed that her Dad is not genuine and never had a close relationship to him anyway.  I am told by the kids that ex doesn't allow 7 yo to speak and will tell her that she is a liar when she speaks up to him.  It seems that he views her as a threat as she is not in awe of him, whereas 4 yo looks up to him and receives "better treatment" from Dad.  

What are legitimate concerns I should have regarding the children visiting him unsupervised 4 days a month???

Thank you in advance for your responses and for reading through this.

Mia

[Anonymous]

Mia,

It sounds pretty disturbing and alarming. Have you talked to your attorney about it?

bunny

[bkkabri]

I am sorry to hear about your ex.  Stay strong.  Listen to these people on here.  We all have been knocked around by these sick people.  My ex started out as the greatest woman I ever met.  It was storybook, went to the same high school.  First 10 months were great, but I noticed red flags but chose to overlook them because we were in love.  All the sudden, a freak show came from nowhere and just kept pushing with ridiculous things and accusations.  I told my ex that my dream someday would be to live in our home state in the summer and live in Florida in the winter.  Its a great dream, especially in the cold.  One of her reasons for leaving me was that I was going to Florida soon and she couldnt leave because of her job.  I had no bags packed, no tickets, no ability to go.  She just etched everything I said in stone.  Just one of many problems.  I just found today that my ex told my mother she threw a Xmas party for her elderly neighbors for coffee and cake.  I have been with her for two years and there was no party.  My neighbor who was her friend for four years(kicked her to the curb for no reason) said she never had parties before me either.  The point is that they will the dumbest things to cause you pain and suffering.  My ex actually told me she didnt want to be with me because she wants a man who makes at least as much as her.  I make more, but in my book who cares.  I just want to love what I do and know that my girlfriend is happy too.  End result, I couldnt get her to bond as a couple.  It was always her and me.  Never us.  I hope you stay strong for your kids.  I have been upset but for your readers who have listened to me complain, I understand I am lucky there were no kids or marriage.  She didnt want kids because she was as she said to selfish with her time to want to take care of them.  I will never date a woman again who doesnt want kids.  Sorry for rambling.  It helps me to get it out of my system because I really miss the facade of the woman I met.

[Cadbury]

I am in the same sort of situation as you in that I am expecting a baby with my ex-N. I have the same kind of concerns that you do about whether he should see the child unsupervised or not, but I think any steps you may want to take should be vetted by a lawyer or something first. If your 7 yo is unhappy at her treatment, I think a child lawyer may be able to help her write a statement for court that would be considered in any proceedings. Things that worry me in any proceedings with an N is their need for status. I would worry (and do worry) that he may try and discredit you as a parent simply to prove a point. He would be unlikely to want to have more contact with your children (from what you have said), but that may not stp him from wanting you to suffer for his own selfish reasons. I don't know, if I were you I would do everything legally by the book so he doesn't have a leg t stand on should he wish to turn it against you.

I know what you mean about text book narcissism - when I first read the descriptions I really thought they had written it about my ex!! At the moment I have the most wonderful comment in my head from a recent conversation :

Me: "I'm sorry, I am just not happy with you."
Him"Why not? I can genuinely say I am the nicest person I have ever met. "

Yes really, thius occured! You can imagine my open mouthed incredulity at it! What do you say in response? !!!

Good luck with it all. Do what you think is best for your children. Is there any member of his family who would be prepared o be with him when he has visitation? That way he may not feel threatened, but someone else would be there to oversee his behaviour? Just a thought. Let us know how you go.

[bludie]

Welcome miaxo,

Since then he has brief periods of quiet that are usually followed by sneak attacks on me which involve litigation to reduce child support etc. Presently, we are engaged in yet another legal battle regarding visitiation.

No clue about the legal ramifications but agree with bunny. Can you get a referral on a knowledgable family law lawyer -- who is a barracuda in court -- that could help you? Sounds like you could use some support and advocacy. Your ex-NH sounds vindictive and unbalanced.

Things that worry me in any proceedings with an N is their need for status. I would worry (and do worry) that he may try and discredit you as a parent simply to prove a point. He would be unlikely to want to have more contact with your children (from what you have said), but that may not stp him from wanting you to suffer for his own selfish reasons

Cadbury has raised a good point. So, whatever legal action you take, I'd suggest emotionally preparing yourself with counseling, too. Sounds as if he may go to any length to favorably represent himself and discredit you.

Of course where children are concerned I applaud any effort to seek their welfare and wellness first. Just check your motives to be certain you aren't doing something out of spite or vendetta. You certainly have reason to feel spiteful, miaxo, but better to not involve children in the mix.

Keep us posted and thanks for sharing your situation.

[miaxo guest]

It's funny you mention that he will attack me in court.

He has just done so two weeks ago.  He alleges that I am physically abusive to the children, that I am mentally ill, and that I am a substance abuser (also that my Mom and my SIL are substance abusers as well).
All false.  My attorney said I can't sue for slander b/c it was said in a sealed court document (protective order).  In all likeliness the judge will see through it b/c he was supposed to be talking about why it would be good for the kids to stay overnight with him one school night weekly.  Well, he spoke about everything but that topic. He also was tripped up in his own lies.  I'm sure the judge will be p*ssed when she reads half the stuff b/c she has already ruled against him for two other motions regarding child support and the children.  

It's a shame b/c he is his own worst enemey.  His former attorney quit b/c during negotiations (4 years ago) she came into the room I was with my attorney and told us that there was "no dealing with him".  He wouldn't even listen to his own lawyer.  I can remember as if it were yesterday...the sheer frustration on the lawyer's face when she muttered, "He is his own worst enemey."  At that point in time I just regarded him as a very selfish paranoid and unreasonable person to deal with, not realizing he was N.

To this day, he sends emails and certified letters to me, making threats, bragging about his fake achievements, trying to pressure me into doing his bidding..such as errands, making phones calls, making copies of things. Bascially, treating me like a secretary who is to do all his mundane things.  Of course I never do which only infuriates him more.

There are sooooooooo many insane things he does that thus far I have always "won" in court (knock on wood) b/c he always gets tripped up in his own lies.  It can be scary b/c he is always so very confident and appears to believe himself.  I am hoping that the judge will rule in my favor this time as well.  I will know in the next two weeks.  

I feel so worn down and I cringe every time I see email from him or a letter in the mail.  I know he wants me to fear him and gets enjoyment from it and I am much better now at not letting him know that he gets to me.  My husband and I try to laugh it off b/c some of the stuff is so off the wall.  I'm sure i would laugh more if I didn't have children involved.  I worry day and night about them because of him.

Thanks for the responses and advice.

[Anonymous]

I feel so worn down and I cringe every time I see email from him or a letter in the mail. I know he wants me to fear him and gets enjoyment from it and I am much better now at not letting him know that he gets to me. My husband and I try to laugh it off b/c some of the stuff is so off the wall. I'm sure i would laugh more if I didn't have children involved. I worry day and night about them because of him.

Do you have to read/answer every e-mail, phone call and letter? Could your husband screen any of this for you? Is your ex-NH remarried?

Best,

bludie

[miaxo guest]

No, ex never remarried.  He can't seem to maintain any relationship for more then a few months.  I actually prefer when he as a woman around the children b/c they seem happier b/c it's obvious he treats them better in front of a new person.  

Recently I have been deferring the emails and letters to my husband.  It helps but he seems to get upset by a lot of it b/c he can't understand how a *man* (I use this term loosely in regards to N) can act in the ways that N acts.

However, my husband is gaining an understanding b/c I have been giving him info on the personality disorder to read.  He was stunned after reading the literature because he couldn't believe that everything written was describing ex's existence or I guess lack of existence.

I must say that although it helps to discover that ex is a N it also is very depressing.  Members of my family have in the past described ex as evil and now I feel the dark side of him.  At the time of divorce 4 years ago I can recall saying that he was a shell of a being and that he did everything for appearances only.  My Mom had said at one time that he was emotionally dead and never bonded with anyone in his entire life.  At the time we knew what he was but at the same time we didn't know. Do you get what I am saying?  Even though we knew the behaviors were inappropriate  and pathetic we didn't know that there was actually a personality disorder that explained why he was the thing that he still is to this day.  I can't get past the feeling that he is evil.  Evil seeks out hosts and he is nothing more than a host who feeds off of others without any regard to the damage that he causes.  

I now view him as a host of the devil.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the clarification. It sounds very upsetting and distressing. Is there a need to open every e-mail/letter? Does he use the children as a reason to contact you so frequently? Isn't it possible to set the schedule for child visitation with him each month and forego all these other contacts?  Were you the one to end the marriage? His idea? Mutual?

I know what you mean about perceiving our ex-Ns as evil. I wasn't married to mine (thank goodness) but the aftermath was negative and scathing enough to let me know his true colors. He turned on a dime. Once I regained some of my own momentum, drew some boundaries, and it made it clear things were over his sense of humanity or any concern for me and my daughter completely vanished. He became even more rude, condescending, vicious, demeaning and insulting.

Why I would miss him in the least bit is beyond me. I guess it takes more than 4 months to disengage emotionally. I can't just turn my feelings on/off like a faucet.


Best,

bludie

[Anonymous]

miaxo,

These URLs might contain some information that would help you:

Working with the System and with Professionals

http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily10.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily11.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily12.html

You have to cursor all the way down to find articles that are pertinent. This quote, in particular, seemed to apply:

In his seminal essay, "Understanding the Batterer in Visitation and Custody Disputes", Lundy Bancroft sums up the asymmetry in favor of the offender:

"Batterers ...  adopt the role of a hurt, sensitive man who doesn't understand how things got so bad and just wants to work it all out 'for the good of the children'. He may cry ... and use language that demonstrates considerable insight into his own feelings. He is likely to be skilled at explaining how other people have turned the victim against him, and how she is denying him access to the children as a form of revenge ... He commonly accuses her of having mental health problems, and may state that her family and friends agree with him ...  that she is hysterical and that she is promiscuous. The abuser tends to be comfortable lying, having years of practice, and so can sound believable when making baseless statements. The abuser benefits ... when professionals believe that they can "just tell" who is lying and who is telling the truth, and so fail to adequately investigate.

Because of the effects of trauma, the victim of battering will often seem hostile, disjointed, and agitated, while the abuser appears friendly, articulate, and calm. Evaluators are thus tempted to conclude that the victim is the source of the problems in the relationship."

I am reading Lundy Bancroft's book and it provides some valuable insight, for what it's worth.

Best again,

bludie