Narcissism Part II

[Anonymous]

T, I hope the links are helpful.

GFN, I will go a little further and say that the technique you use is one from your childhood. It is no longer appropriate or necessary.

There is no such thing as a bad or negative thought. There are simply thoughts (and feelings).

The key to getting rid of redundant responses is to understand why you continue to use them. For example, an abused child’s processes:

Thought: My parents are bad and don’t love me (unconscious thought: and I will die if they are bad and decide to leave me)

Thought: I need my parents to be good (unconscious thought: but they do bad things to me, therefore it must be the case that I am bad to be so punished).

Effect? Child grows up to believe that they are inherently bad but they deny this belief using a variety of techniques, some of which cause them to end up in prison, in psychiatric care, or in everyday denial.

With your technique in particular:

a) Blatently tell myself to "stop it" – denying your thoughts instead of understanding them.
b) Substitute one positive thought, over and over, until I accept it – because the alternative of examining what’s in your head is too frightening? We all experience fear. Courage is facing the fear, not suppressing it.
c) Remind myself that I am not perfect and neither is anyone else. - Agreed, striving for perfection is harmful. However, using other people’s imperfection to excuse yourself from thinking is a diversion.

[Anonymous]

Have to ask, oh-provider-of-helpful-links - who are you? I never log in as anyone, but I've become known as "t" for troublemaker. I try to remember to at least sign off that way - do you have a preferred moniker so we know who is speaking and who we are replying to?


In GFN defense, while I believe your points are valid, this technique is a good step in the right direction and can get you through some rather stinky moments, even if it does not globally solve the problem. Analogous to labeling everyone N as a temporary band-aid solution (this is why I'm trouble)  .

My excessive ruminations are focused, I think, on the next step - What am I really saying/feeling, is it valid. and how can I change the pattern in a deep and complete kind of way?

Use of language is primary ot all of us, so choosing careful language can be a good intermediate defense. Even better, to me, is carefully interpreting the language of others as well our own (and in contrast to each other) - and those of the inner voices.

Anyhoo - Who are you? Who, who, who who? I really wanna know...

T

[Anonymous]

Why? Does it matter? Who do you want me to be? Shall I be...
Guest With No Name ...... GWNN... sounds like a radio station?

[Anonymous]

Hello again everyone:

Guest wrote:  

This is a coping technique which maintains the core problems, it does not solve them.

I think you are right, it is a coping technique but I disagreee that it maintains the core problems.  Otherwise, I would still feel bad about myself, wouldn't I?  But I don't.  By substituting positive statements/thoughts and habitually practicing the technique, I think and feel better about myself (which is the core problem-poor self-esteem--to begin with, isn't it?).  For me it was.

Effect? Child grows up to believe that they are inherently bad...

Yes..for me that was true.  I thought I was, as T has described, worthless, valueless, would never achieve my goals etc....due to listening to and believing that parental voice that spoke often and thus became a habit in my head.

There is no such thing as a bad or negative thought.

Really?  I seriously disagree.  If I think:

"I'm bad" or "I'm useless" or "I'm incompetent" or etc

What am I doing then, just having a nice thought about myself?
And afterwards, what will I feel?

IMO, I'm having a negative thought or thoughts about myself and by doing so, I am reinforcing the idea of my worthlessness and I mightl feel sad or disgusted or frustrated or angry as a result.  This is not a positive state for me.

If I think:  "I'm ok" or "I did a good job of that" or "I can do it" or etc

Aren't I just having a nice, positive thought about myself?  And after that...what will I feel?  Maybe kind of good or positive or happy or some feeling that is helpful in reinforcing the idea of my value, my worth and to solve the problem...increase my self-esteem.

The more I think good thoughts, the better I feel.  My objective is to feel better.  I felt not so great, to begin with, because I thought less of myself than really was the case.  I wasn't nearly as bad as I thought I was!

We are all valuable people.  Thinking otherwise encourages feelings that, if repeated often enough, keep us in what I call:  negative mode.  We begin to dislike ourselves.  We feel "small".  We lose faith in ourselves.

I don't think this technique is no longer appropriate or necessary.  I find it helps me to enjoy my life and feel good and happy.  I think it is a useful technique, for me, and there are many other people I know who agree.

It was not something I knew to do as a child.  Quite to the contrary, I believed the negative things my parents said about me and I had many thoughts that reinforced their words (and so I felt low, sad, unworthy, frustrated often..and the biggie....stupid... etc).  I believed much of what they said.

In young adulthood I read about this "technique" and really had to practice hard and often to form the "habit" of thinking good, positive thoughts about myself.  For the most part, I do that now but sometimes, as I'm sure many people do, I slip up and get into "negative mode" for awhile.   That's ok, as long as it doesn't go on and on.

It's good to deny negative, nasty, unrealistic thoughts about oneself, I think.  It's different if I have said or done something wrong and know it (then I might look harder at the why's and how to prevent again's--but even then....berrating myself with derogator thoughts won't "solve the problem").  But "Im worthless"???  This isn't negative?  This isn't unrealistic"  You say it will help me in some way if I try to understand "why" I think those thoughts?  Don't I already understand "why" I think like that?  My parents drilled that junk into my head.  That's "why" isn't it?  I believed them.  That's "why" right?  Maybe there are more reasons but .....like excuses.....they really don't change a thing.  What changes things for me...is choosing to think otherwise.  Rejecting habitual negative thinking, especially if it is causing me harm.

....examining what’s in your head is too frightening?

What makes you think I'm afraid of this idea?  How do you know this?

IMO, I already know what's there......many, many inappropriate ideas about what I'm not.  Many ignorant, hurtful suggestions about what I will be and....many, many derogatory comments (negative words) that are and were not true...

I have no wish to examine that stuff because I know, realistically, those things aren't of use or value.  My parents were sick people and so....they said sick things.

I rejected some of it but some stuck, and I work at rejecting that too.  I like my new habit (technique)  much better than my old one.. of just accepting their words (most of the time) and allowing them to ring in my head.   When I hear myself regressing to that type of thinking now...I try to say:  "Stop it" and insert something true and I feel good about it.
Works for me.

T wrote:  

In GFN defense, while I believe your points are valid

Thanks, T.  I believe everyone's points are valid.  I just choose which ones I accept and are of use to me, as I'm sure, we all do.   Positive thinking techniques are a good thing, in my book.  Maybe not for everyone.

GFN

[Anonymous]

It does not matter in the sense that I will ever "know" you - I won't, with near certainty. But it is helpful, when multiple voices are on the thread (sometimes gets busy) - just in terms of keeping straight who I'm listening/talking to....

Been through the desert on a guest with no name (more 1970's pop)?

S/he who shall not be named (cheap H. Potter reference - I am a Mom, so I know these things)?

GWNN (gwen? gawain?) is fine, though. I didn't use one at first, either - but then I realized that it creates a certain confusion when there are so many Guests.

Just a thought.

T

The links ARE very interesting, BTW. The meaty PDF in particular. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, T. I believe everyone's points are valid. I just choose which ones I accept and are of use to me

I look at it this way:

When my immediate (right now) problem is behavioral (this is how I've managed to do what I've managed to do), I take a behavioral approach. GFN's solution is behavioral (stimulus/response, Antecedent-Behavior-Consequense). Behavioral strategies can work very effectively for changing thought-behaviors and thought-habits.

On the other hand, when I know my problem is long-term and insidious, and responds well (enough to increase/maintain good functioning and reasonable happiness) but not completely reliably to the behavioral approach, I use the psychoanalytic (why? Where from? In what way is the current physiological sensation similar/dissimilar to earlier experiences? Are you re-creating the situation in an effort to resolve it or merely reacting in a habitual fashion? Is there a Santa Claus?) approach in addition to.

Like some other arguments here, everyone is really right - depending on the circumstances and the immediate vs. long-term needs.

T

[bunny]

T,

Yes the therapist told me the reason not to talk about my MIL to my husband. It wasn't advice about pussyfooting. There were very sensible reasons not to discuss MIL with my H. The reasons were very solid and I agreed with them. Things have been better ever since. My MIL is now deceased but I still don't talk about her.

re: the imposter issues. I think it's pretty common among artistic people to feel fraudulent, unworthy of high remuneration, apprehensive about performing, writer's block, etc. I'm not sure it needs to be overcome if you're performing at a level that is satisfying to you. Why does it have to go to the 'next level'? Maybe it could, but maybe it's okay where it is for now.

I would assume that it's very dangerous to ask for more money, better conditions, venues, or whatever, because that's like asking for different cabbage.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Bunny - I did not mean to sound dismissive with the use of the term pussy-footing. Please disregard.

I'm just puzzled that the therapist would declare someting like that off-limits entirely (although I would understand advice of caution), but if you think it's valid advice and has helped, then so be it. Lacking details, I can't comment more. I'm sorry that even in death MIL is so powerful for your husband.

I'm satisfied that I'm performing/progressing as an artist as much as is reasonable to expect. My problem is how I FEEL when I am embarking on new projects (even repeating old ones) - my desires are at odds with my internal reactions which are at odds with known evidence.

Low-balling my rates is another expression of that...when evidence supports that the market will bear it and that I have the skills necessary to demand to be paid equally to my peers and I don't - there's a problem IN ME, not in the market or with my outer self (skills).

I'm sure, in some sense, I equate acceptance of my skills and rates with love, and rejection of either as withdrawal of love. Probably, as an unloved child, this is what is all boils down to, in every situation.

I'll never make Mother happy, will I? She'll never really love me or respect me no matter what/how much/how well I do, will she? And if Mother's not happy, no one is...(rhetorical questions).

What a screwball and difficult pattern that is to break, huh?

T

[Anonymous]

So then T:  

I FEEL certain that I am a big fraud and will fail. It is as if no amount of success will teach me to FEEL my value.

why?

Why do you think you keep having these thoughts, not matter how many times you perform successfully?
Why do you think you don't feel the value of them?

Where from?

Where are these thoughts "I'm a big fraud" and "I will fail" coming from?

In what way is the current physiological sensation similar/dissimilar to earlier experiences?

In what way are your current successes and lack of feeling valuable similar (dissimilar) to an earlier experiences?  What feels the same about it?

Are you re-creating the situation in an effort to resolve it or merely reacting in a habitual fashion?

No matter what the answer.......what can you do to change things so that you are not re-creating "I'm a big fraud" and "I will fail" thoughts, so that you are not reacting in a habitual fashion, so that you are not always comparing to/trying to solve earlier experiences (but rather experiencing them in the now), so that the place where the thoughts are coming from does not have so much power over your current and future thinking, and so that the reasons why that is happening, insidiously, long-term...will no longer be an excuse?

I'm going to copy that paragraph and ask myself those things, the next time I'm in negative mode (prior to beginning my behavioural approach).

What the heck.

GFN

[Anonymous]

I'm sure, in some sense, I equate acceptance of my skills and rates with love, and rejection of either as withdrawal of love. Probably, as an unloved child, this is what is all boils down to, in every situation.

I'll never make Mother happy, will I? She'll never really love me or respect me no matter what/how much/how well I do, will she? And if Mother's not happy, no one is...(rhetorical questions).

What a screwball and difficult pattern that is to break, huh?

T

GFN, the above self-quote is likely the best nut-shell answer - and dilemna - there is. I might go further to say that the physiological sensation is similar to my feelings of impending rejection/love witholding/punishment/emotional-physical abuse as a child. these things happened to me whenever I asserted my needs, preferences and desires - WANTS - and they differed from my Mother's ideas of what those should be or were threatening to her in some way.

It's the old cognitive dissonance trick - I know as an adult I'm not going to experience rejection most of the time, nor will it be that significant, in real terms, when it happens, but the feeling is just as opressing and frightening AS IF it would be so.

The worst part, for me, is sometimes sabotaging myself so I can fail (not to a huge degree, I generally recover quickly and get back on track) by procrastinating or avoiding - thus the re-creation part.

For example - I am never late in the creative work/output (I'm really fast) - but I am cyclically (when I'm in a period of anxiety/depression) late to bill my customers. My customers can be a little frustrated by this (can mess up their bookeeping cycle a little), but forgiving because they get the finished product on time and they like the work. I punish me by not getting paid for longer than is necessary, and by setting myself up to feel like a loser when I do eventually deal with it.

Weird, stupid head tricks.

T

[Anonymous]

I love that supid word.  It's so stupid (and silly).

So:  

...these things happened to me whenever I asserted my needs, preferences and desires...

Might then, you practice asserting your needs, preferences and desires (set yourself up so you can win, so to speak).  For instance, you must perform tonight (you need to earn a living, just like anyone).  You prefer to be calm, relaxed, etc to help yourself do a good job.  You want to enjoy the experience and your desire is to succeed and perform well.

What can you do, ahead of time, to help yourself feel calm, relaxed, etc?
What can you do to assert your needs?  (not necessarily to anyone else...maybe just to yourself?)
What might help you to enjoy the experience to the fullest?
Your performances aren't happening to you.....you're making them happen.
If you do things to make them happen to the best of your ability, do you think you will succeed and perform well?
Once you perform well, what can you do to make sure you acknowledge this to yourself? (or do you think this is important?).  How will you feel, if you perform well?  What will you say to yourself?

The outcome, then, will be different from what you experienced as a child, probably, if you take steps to assert your needs, in the now, right?

I know as an adult I'm not going to experience rejection most of the time, nor will it be that significant, in real terms, when it happens, but the feeling is just as opressing and frightening AS IF it would be so.

 
Are you saying that when you experience rejection it feels opressing and frightening?  Would you say this is an appropriate response to rejection?
What would be a more appropriate response (if there is one)?  How much rejection, as an adult, have you experienced and how did you react?

The worst part, for me, is sometimes sabotaging myself so I can fail...

Isn't this a self-defeating, destructive behaviour?  What can be done to change this?  Who has to do the work?

Hey.....I've been there.  You understand why you're doing stuff.  Now it's time to decide what to do about doing stuff differently.

((((((((((T)))))))))))

GFN

[Anonymous]

thanks, and a lzy 3 character HUG to you, too.

Actually, once I'm in the work mode, I'm happy as a clam and alll about the work. My regular gigs are very comfortable, and if I'm not relaxed when I start, I am by the 3rd or 4th song and/or the first half of the wine glass. Interesting to note: this is the Non-Diva Diva gig, where I get to be slightly invisible but still make lush and emotive and haunting sounds and read the lush and emotive and haunting verses of the greats like Johnny Mercer (I fancy myself sort of a Barrymore of Song- wink/giggle).

On the other hand, the Diva-Diva gigs make me happy once I'm DOING IT, so this isn't about coping with the actual event - it's more about coping with my feelings all the rest of the time. I don't have time to think about it at all when I'm performing, as it does (despite the fact that many non-musicians think it's as easy as breathing) require effort and concentration to do a good job. It's like being an athlete, really. The "not having time to think about it" is what makes it work - and letting others call me instead of the other way round is a function of that same thing.

In these areas, I feel I've done a really good job of addressing it behaviorally, and the resume supports that (even if it could be better under other conditions). It's just that the wounded child still lives with me and continues to devalue in anticipation of devaluation (she's nutty and sad, I am not).

Finding a way to become my own suitable replacement of a loving Mother is a daily fit-and-start process.

Just looking at myself honestly like this, out loud, helps.

((((GFN))))

T

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the hug, T.  Can we get/give too many hugs?

Ok....so this is the last post for me here today as I gotta get off here and do stuff.

Last question:

It's just that the wounded child still lives with me

So what are you going to do to repair her wounds?
To meet her needs?  To satisfy her desires?  To leave her in the past?

'Cus it's up to you, right?  Otherwise, she'll stay as she is, won't she?

another hug, GFN

[bunny]

After we discussed his "success", I was trying to ask my husband if he thought discussing his childhood with his personal therapist was beneficial in a significant way - but my daughter finished her homework before I could get a comprehensive answer. then it needed to be about her for awhile, after which life in general took over.

I'd leave it alone.

bunny

[bunny]

I don't see your mind as wierd, twisted, nutty, sad, etc. There are parts of you that are probably terrified and enraged. That's pretty common in most people, although in your case the terror was really pretty horrific. My philosophy is to manage vulnerable parts of myself are well as I can, and enjoy life, whether or not I get anywhere socially or career-wise. Mainly my wish is to be content rather than miserable. That's all I want. Others are far more ambitious than I am, which is fine.

bunny