Narcissism Part II

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your kind acknowledgements of my previous post.

Yes, while it is true that many NPDers never seek help or find independent need for change, the truth is YOU JUST DON"T KNOW UNTIL IT HAPPENS (forgive my CAPS, I don't know how to enable italics here). In my husband's case, there was a long period when I believed that change was not possible, that he would never come to understand how his behavior (the result of his inner terror) was harmful and unjustifiable, nor ever face himself and take responsibility for his actions and his own self-perceptions.

However, he ultimately did do all those things. While he is far from perfect (we see intense but brief spikes when he is feeling feeaful or deep in self-loathing), he has grappled admirably with his issues and continues to do so, even though joint therapy has ended and he is now only receiving therapy individually.

The point, I guess, is that I see so many threads and posts here (and in other sites devoted strictly to "Narcissistic Abuse") that use black and white terms like "never" and "evil" to describe the (possible - how many of these "Ns" are actually diagnosed?) NPDers in question, and I find that disheartening.

As the child of a clearly Narcissistic mother (and grandfather (world class narcissist), though he and I got on well - driving up the envy factor for Mom), I still suffer today from the "Little Voice" that Dr. Grossman describes. That condition existed within me before I ever met my husband. The "Little Voice" is no less damaging to self and others, just perhaps more subtle. And the truth be told, probably just as few "little Voices" seek the help they need or seek to change, but instead continue to alternately mourn and silently seethe, quietly self-sabotaging and avoiding real intimacy in favor of acceptance, mystifying those around them who can see no earthly reason for it. This is spookily similar to the way others react to the Narcissist: "Why in the world would anyone do such a thing(s)?".

I feel that to condemn others who suffer similarly but behave differently to "never" and "evil" stauts is to essentially do the same to myself - thus condemning ME to a lifetime of diminished voice, and by extension, diminished self - which is exactly what drives the narcissist. Underneath it all, we're not so different.

I had come to this board after reading the articles/essays in hopes of finding others who were addressing their own issues of voice, and although I see some of that (more with those whose parents are the focus), I see more posts seeking support for contemporary (immedate or recent, spouse or sig-other related) issues than regard self-redirection and self-change.

While I certainly understand the immediate relief brought by demonizing the "perp", I do also think that this can cloud the deeper issues for many, diminishing the likelihood of lasting self-acknowledgement and self-change by prolonging rage and dissillusionment.

I do not intend to cast asperstions, but I have visited several "Narcissistic Abuse" forums in the past (I guess due to the nature of Dr. Grossman's essays I thought this site would be focused differently, so my comments should be read with an understanding of my disappointment), and they all seem to be rhetorical and formulaic: "My N-EX is so evil and mean!". "He'/she is not even human!", "I'm so glad s/he got what was coming to him HAHAHAHA", "That SOB did it AGAIN", "I hope that B**** screws him over like he did me", etc., etc., etc. And while of a certain immediate benefit, I believe that kind of vitriol only serves to foster more rage, rather than helping to process and come to terms with it.

Again, it is just that kind of rage that fuels the narcissist, who continues to focus on the wrongdoings, real or imagined or some combination of both, of others - rather than on addressing the demons within, primary of which is lack of real voice.

The hardest part in all of my experience, up to now (having some way to go with self-repair), has been removing the focus from what others have done to me (legitimate complaints, to be sure) and shifting it to What I Can Do For Myself. Rage stinks, and it still does exist for me, but it has become clear that I will not be able to outmanuever it by either swallowing/burying it or directing it elsewhere. I feel my job is to accept what has happened, accept that I may or may not come to understand the motivation of the "perps" (which will not take away the confusion - "But WHY?" is and will always be the perrenial question), and charge myself with rebuilding my self-concept.

I think if one is strong in self, the need to understand WHY diminishes, and the search for solutions for self becomes more fruitful. I think of the "Why" question stage kind of like the little kid who keeps asking "Why" after every response, in hope that next time the answer will be different and easier to understand. Those of us who are parents (or were once children!), consistent ones, anyway, know that answer does not usually change, and the child ultimately has to go along for the ride even if they don't understand. We also know, from our own experience, that answers to many questions will be either illuminated or rendered unimportant as our experiece grows.

Again, these posts should be read with an understanding of my frustration at being unable to find message boards or communities that focus on the deeper meanings and self-applications of ideas like Dr. Grossman's rather than on the immediate slights and insults of those who betray us. To be sure, those copmplaints have a functional place in reaching understanding, but it is difficult to find places where those complaints are secondary to the larger issue of self-repair.

Thank you for reading.

[Anonymous]

Was there a time, Guest, when you experienced

the immediate relief brought by demonizing the "perp"

????

Have you ever found yourself thinking in black and white?

We are all at different stages of growth, right?

Although I understand that it is frustrating for you to see all the spewing and bashing about, and also how disheartening it is for you to have moved  to the point where you no longer think of NDPer's as "evil" and "never" able to change, yet you see so many who believe that, ya gotta have patience.

Each person is different.
Each experience is different.
Each tolerance level and response is different.
Each set of damages is different.

All require individual care and will take individual time to move to different stages.

All of our goals are similar though aren't they?  NO matter how far along we are or our differences?  Aren't we all just trying to heal and grow?

[longtire]

I can see both points here and feel that I am stuck in the middle on this issue right now.  I am working on forgiving my wife's behavior and believe that she exhibits a lot of N traits.  My understanding of where I'm at at the moment is that it is not so important to be beyond blaming and desiring revenge toward her, it is more that I do the work that I need to do to in order to grow to the point where those feelings or views are no longer necessary or even useful for me.

From my own experience, I also wonder whether there is more unresolved anger, frustration, etc. in people who have suffered from someone who is N.  Since my experiences have been completely denied by my wife, I have had no way to express it to her, and she has had no way to express remorse or to work to heal the hurts.  I have felt that I had all this anger and frustration which didn't "belong" anywhere.  I know that I have have vented to relieve the pressure, no matter how temporary, just so I didn't have to hold onto all of it by myself when I couldn't see anyway to ever truly resolve things between us.  Thankfully, I am working toward forgiving my wife and releasing all that load.  I think this is difficult enough under "normal" circumstances with just our own issues.  When you throw in someone who is unable to accept any responsiblilty for thier behavior, and blames you instead, it seems reasonable that the lack of validation and turning around would just lead to more feelings and more confusion.

longtire

[Anonymous]

My main goal right now is to navigate through my own issues of voicelessness.

Again, my disappointment has to do with the fact that the Message Board does not have Narcisissim in the title, and the articles and essays, while mentioning narcissism both as a cause and an effect of voicelessness, do not dwell on the concept. (Titles raised as a good point by another poster in Narcissism I). In this respect I do feel a little misled, but that is no one's fault here. I'm griping because I'm disappointed, and because of the following:

I have a deep appreciation for the concepts set forth in the articles and essays - and have developed a few ideas of my own in response to them. For example, I believe that "authentic voice" is implicit in an "I" statement, as opposed to a "we" statement or a "they/He/She" statement.

For example - "I am angry", "I am hurt", "I do not accept X.", as opposed to "He makes me mad", "She hurt me", "Why are they so mean?".

I'm sure to some it sounds like a petty thing, but I do believe that language is functional in more respects than just communicating ideas. I believe it also shapes attitudes - about ourselves and others. In this way, language is very powerful - just simply in they way we relate ideas to ourselves and others and the precise words we choose, we tip the interpersonal power balance.

"I feel abandoned" ", I am hurt" gives power, opportunity, hope - and responsibility - to the speaker. "He abandoned me", "She hurt me" give responsibility and power to the subject.

I'm not saying that those who hurt us are not guiilty of their actions - they are - but they technically are not responsible, in the sense that they can choose to take responsibility and make it up to us or not, but ultimately it is optional for them. So the only real, reliable way to deal with hurt and anger and fear etc. is to take on the power of ownership and responsibility for ourselves.

Just sayin' - and also tipping my hat to "easier said than done".  If I though it were easy I wouldn't be looking for a good place to explore these ideas and feelings, I'd have already mastered it all...and it is clear to me that I haven't.

So - I'm in pursuit of power over my own "voicelessness", irrespective of whether it came from a narcissistic parent or partner or whether I just fall in the 50% nature category. Probably some of both. I've encountered many people who have had run-ins with narcissistic and self-centered types who have not suffered to quite the same degree as I have, being somehow able to emerge less damaged - which is worth looking at.

In the meantime, I probably will keep looking for another place to post. I do understand where people here and on other narcissism-devoted boards are coming from, I just did feel that it was important to make a few of these points - not the least of which is that not every situation is hopeless and inherent evil is a theocratic notion, not a human, psychological notion.

In addition, I wanted to direct some focus toward the essays - which I believe to be very important - more so than debating wether or not a "perp" is an NPDer, whether they know it or, or whether one should get revenge.

I don't lack appreciation or empathy for what is going on for some of the posters - been there and it still hurts - and I don't plan to continue arguing my points, either (though I will respiond to questions, as these points, especially those that are "athentic voice" oriented, are important to me).

I don't think everyone has to agree with me or support my contentions, I just want to share my ideas, experiences and opinions. I think the evidence for that is in the fact that I did not derail anyone else's post to make these points or take any one particular post to task (not that I think anyone is doing that to me, especially - I realize my views could be construed as somewhat contoversial here and questions - even hard ones - are appropriate). I believe that the experiences and feelings of the posters here are perfectly valid - I am simply presenting alternative viewpoints that I hope will be helpful to at least a few.

longtire: I still feel stuck in a wierd middle place sometimes. My ideas and philosophies have evolved quite a bit ahead of my mastery. Part of the quest for that mastery includes cultivating the "I voice". I think finding a place for anger etc. to belong has to do with ownership - and if my "I voice" is weak or non-exisitent, I can't own it. I'll remain dependent upon the voice of the "other" to tell me what to do with it, and since other technically can't be responsible for my healing and learning, that just won't work.

My huasband still does not take responsibility for all his behaviors, and perhaps I do not always do so either, especially when I'm feeling victimized. I do find it helpful (though of course not a perfect solution) to be diligent about hearing HIM, also, without blame or jugement or tit-for-tat,  even if he is not operating in the "I voice" (You do this, You do that). I try to overlook hyberbole and blame in favor of hearing th subtext, at least at the time, and just respond to his feelings at the moment. At the very least, I can cite it as an example of what I need from him at another time.

Basically, I try to overlook use of "always", never" and similar, and also don't demand that his facts be utterly straight and accurate before listening and responding to how he feels. sometimes I go back later and say "Do you really think I always/never?" or "Do you really feel I was doing something to hurt you?". Often, if sufficient time has passed and the mood has changed, the answer will be "No - I was just upset at the time. I'm sorry I was so over-the-top"". I can then point out that I need this level of listening from him. I also do not resist delivering a simple "I'm Sorry" when I know I haven't been exactly awesome (I am human, too), whether or not he's wonderful about delivering his criticism - although I will reinforce that I want gentleness in criticism later.

I alos try to avoid tit-for-tat because I then say truthfully that I have not responded to his accusations with a counter-accusation (Yeah? Well, You x, x, x"). This is called deflection and it's something that voiceless/narcissitic people are very good at but serves no useful purpose in problem solving. I believe he does much more of this than me, but just the fact that I consciously don't respond in kind (usually, I'm not perfect either) gives me logical leverage when trying to help him understand my needs and complaints.

In addition, I do not discuss whether or not the behavior is question is narcisisstic in nature, I just tackle tham as discrete entities, one at a time. We've had those NPD conversations in the past, and I'm not sure whether it helped or not to discuss them in that context. The joint therapist does not dispute nor confirm his NPD status, and according to him, his therapist says "personality disorder" but does not specify. I think she does not feel it necessarily helpful to pigeonhole, and may be, like me, a subscriber to the personality continuum thoery - meaning the degree to which one is experiencing dysfunction and crisis is what determines whether they are just a narcisisstic personality type (no harm no foul), a borderline, an NPDer, an anti-social, or a psychotic - which can change over time, moving up and down the scale.

Hope that helps.

PS: Please pardon all my typos...too lazy to fix. I really am more literate than that (and terribly insecure, ain't I?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous,

You're right - narcissism isn't in the title of this group. I totally zoned out on that one. But after reading posts for a short time, I think it becomes clear that this group is focused on narcissism.

Using I-statements is not petty. Taking personal responsibility for one's own contributions to problems is important. Some people aren't at that space right now due to earlier trauma. And some people know that they tend to take on 100% of the responsibility so they swing to the opposite end of the pendulum. They haven't practiced ambiguity, sharing responsibility, etc., because there was no role-modeling for that.

My take on it is that a lot of language you're hearing about adult partners is really about the person's early relationships. So you're hearing the voice of a hurt child (imo). However since the person is chronologically adult, they may want to learn to switch from a hurt child to an adult when necessary;  i.e., developing an awareness of when the child is in charge and encouraging their adult parts to be in charge.

It sounds like you and your H have some agreements on how to negotiate with each other, and you're in therapy together. Many people don't have a two-way street to work with. That makes it very difficult. It takes a certain level of groundedness, emotional detachment, and the ability to contain powerful affects, to do what you're doing. You may not realize how sophisticated you and your H are.

I think there are some regular posters here who post in the language you are hoping to hear.

Thanks for your very articulate and helpful post.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Thanks Bunny! I feel better now that the "Title" issue is resolved.

I want respond to address the "I statement" a little more - to me, it's not about taking responsibility for what has happened (although sometimes we need to take at least some of the fall, sometimes not) or what someone has done to us - clearly, if someone has harmed us, deliberately or not, usually they have chosen their course of action with free will. To suggest otherwise, for the most part, is like saying that "Because she wore a short skirt, he had no choice but to rape her". That is clearly wrong-headed. (the E-mail snooping posts are analogous - I have his e-mail pw, thus I am compelled...).

What I really am trying to say is that there is a subtle but distinct and important difference between saying "He raped me" and "I was raped". the former focuses on the HE in question. The latter focuses on the I.

I think taking the HE out of the equation, and making it about the I and the event, can serve to help make sense of the event in the context of the future -healing, prevention, awareness - all that - rather than dwelling on the HE - which makes the rape HIS event, and not the victim/I's.

I guess I think, in a way, it is an even better defensive posture to change the language for yourself, because whatever you lerarn from your experience is then more likely to be generalized across new situations and encounters, regardless of ANY HE who may be present.

I'm not sure if I'm being utterly clear. Again, the distinction is subtle, but important. If you look at it from the perspective of someone reacting to childhood abuse, say, if the focus stays on the parent - then it could be much harder to draw the parallels with new or current situations and people, actually making it harder rather than easier to really learn and avoid future repeats of history.

Maybe this is in part because dwelling on the parent/perp's wrongdoing necessarily means dwelling on our loss of innocence and a sub-conscious pursuit of an idealized parent/partner who won't let us down. so in a way, I guess I think HE statements set us up to replicate situations over and over because we are seeking the solution without, hoping we'll get it right this time, so they'll love us more/better this time, or they won't hurt us this time. Jung calls this the Orphan state - I gues his equivalent to the concept of voicelessness.

Does that make sense?

[Anonymous]

Oh- and just in case people think I've got it all covered with the hubby, think again - some days he just righteously SUCKS and I wouldn't mind hurling an ice pick in the general direction of his nether regions. I got let down in a big way this weekend, after some big promises friday that involved his proactivity, as a matter of fact.

However, this doesn't happen all the time and every day, and it is my own fault that I let him blow me off without demanding he keep his agreement until late sunday/monday morning. Instead I just sat around thinking, "You're blowing me off, you8 A**hole", instead of piping up with MY VOICE like a big girl.

Kind of expecting him not to let me down this time, even though I know he will if he can because it is stressful for him and involves putting himself at risk for failure, but also not going to bat for myself when I saw it starting to happen.

I kind of suck, too, sometimes, in my own special way.

[bunny]

Anonymous,

I understood what you meant by "I" statements. But thanks for giving some really good examples. You wrote another post with many I statements, in which you took responsibility for your own feelings and for your part in the interactions with your husband. Some people aren't ready for that level of relating. Believe it or not, they can feel that "I" statements are another manipulation and humiliation. There are abusers (parents, especially) who've learned about I-statements and misuse them malevolently: "I feel that you are selfish. I feel that you are screwing up my life," etc. This confuses traumatized people and it makes I-statements threatening. Even if they intellectually understand them, emotionally it's another story.

bunny

[Anonymous]

One thing that I have observed is that Anonymous' situation is the exception rather than the norm. For many of us, there may have been no other choice but to end the relationship/marriage. (Or the Ns left the relationship and quickly moved onto another person). You are fortunate, Anonymous, to have a partner who is willing to look at his issues and work on the marriage together. So when you feel disappointment about not reading posts you can relate to on this forum, you may want to remind yourself of this.

Best,

bludie

[BlueTopaz]

To the original author of the thread:

I agree with you very much that there are exceptions with N's, because there are different types of N's, for one. For instance, I don't think psychopathic/malignant N's get better. Someone with N traits or a lesser patho. type of N might improve quite a bit, with help. There are usually either explainable or unexplainable exceptions for most things.

By the way, I think the person that said the short form was used for no other reason than to shorten typing was right in my book!    I can't imagine typing out the whole word all the time. This is the only reason I use the abrev. I just want to be clear that no disrespect is intended. In fact, I am one here that is not angry with their xN, and even has kind feelings toward them.

I much admire your wanting to share your experience and opinion where as you say, it seems in the minority.

Though I do believe it is possible for some N's to improve a lot, it just seems like it is more uncommon than common, and I think that is maybe why you get most of the kinds of "never" etc (words you mentioned you weren't comfortable with) depictions & advice on N message boards. If it were more common I'm guessing we'd hear a lot more success stories like your own. Some have lived for lifetimes with N's(where it is a parent, child, or sibling) never to see any hint of change. Perhaps in some cases where healing could be likely at all, it is due to a lack of updated info. known regarding what would reach an N person & help them change perceptions & heal. Maybe in the future there will be new strategies known, and we would be lucky enough to experience many more stories like yours.

It is also described in its professional diagnostic context, specifically as a very rigid(resistant to change) personality disorder, unfortunately.  

But I must say that I thought about saying what you did a few times (in context with a posting at those times) but never did. This is because I was always very concerned about giving those who really should have been leaving abusive N relationships, false hope. One of the biggest things to overcome when trying to leave an N romantic relationship for good is the magical thinking that the N can change... "if only"... Or that "this time will be different if I try again" Any sliver of hope of change & the one emotionally stuck in the N relationship is in danger of returning physically. Since more don't seem to change than do, I thought it best not to open that can of worms. This was only for me & related to my personal preferences & reasons but I personally welcome that you did write about it & again, admire you for doing so.

Anyway, I'm really glad it is working out as it is between you & your husband. You both have been truly blessed!!

BT

[Anonymous]

For the record, I've been through some horrifying trauma - both with husband and mother (this seems to be unclear, based on some of the repsonses).

With my husband, I have been abruptly left and replaced. I've been cut off from my entire social structure and replaced within that, too. I've experienced threats, lies, rumours, stalking behavior, crazy-making...all of it (though I should point out that for some of it, he had help in the form of the "other"). I thought I might not make it through all that; cried every single day for over a year, lost all kinds of weight, did not sleep more than 5 hours a night, needed anti-anxiety meds to get through the day even marginally.

But I knew that this was not his "norm" (even though his norm still shows many clear characteristics of narcissism). I knew that he was having a severe crisis, and since I've had my own crises before, I had to cut him some slack even as I cut him off, which I did for a time, as much as I could with shared custody of our daughter. I also knew his childhood was hallmarked by abandonment and severe neglect - he once had only onions to eat for an entire week, and lived in a cabin in Maine - winters with no electricity, no running water, and no school. And no father, with a mother who was too depressed to even apply for welfare. Knowing all this, I never was able to demonize him, even though for a long time I stayed as far away as possible, directing him elsewhere for help and support (a critical maneuver, in my book).

With my mother, I have experienced abuse of the I voice as described, in addition to physical attacks as a child (hair pulling, scratching - and once a knife to my throat, over my preferences re:cooked vs. raw cabbage). For her, to disagree was a sign of pathology in me. "You are sick, you are selfish", "You always hurt your mother".

But I (now) know that her father was also Narcissistic and abusive on all levels toward her and especially her brothers, as was his mother - who once stood my child-mother before a mirror and said "You will never be as beautiful as me." Who knows what happened to her!

These conditions excuse nothing, but they do go a long way to EXPLAIN. While explanations are not always clear or as straightforward as these examples, largely they are there somewhere, if obscured by denial and fear.

My experiences have shaped me and my behavior, too,  leaving me, like them, with a Voice that is dependent upon outside voices. My execution is different - I tend to pump up others to feel better about me while asking or even accepting too little for myself -  but it is no less dishonest and pathological (see "Saving Other People" thread). In fact, it leaves me perfectly available to any self-centered type and open to the inherent hazards. I do what I do because I needed a means of defense and deflection, so it's not that different, underneath.

I guess, for me, I have decided that while I have been shaped by these experiences, it is ultimately not relevant to what I do next, now that I have  a certain knowledge on my side.

My husband has progressed, is at least out of crisis, and he may or may not improve more. My mother has not improved much at all, although I think, on some level, she tries - and I am ultimately vindicated by my extraordinarily happy child who is so accomplished that she will be a Student Ambassador to Australia next summer. I think my mother has noticed, and is somewaht more deferntial than she used to be because of it. A liitle shamed, maybe - because she sees the differences in the dynamic. She is only a little different with me, but she is VERY different with my daughter. Even if she never admits it, she has learned something.

So while I have suffered greatly, yes, I also can still see the humanity of those who have hurt me - as I can see my own humanity, even while I have hurt me, too, at times, by simply not giving enough credence to the "I" voice..

A couple of other boards out there give striking evidence of the perils of obsessing on NPD. After four years, when I occasionally look in, I see the same names, still telling the same stories (no worse than mine) - even though the dreaded "N" is more or less gone (and if not, they are still not looking at "I" enough to figure out why leaving a horrible relationship is so impossible). They have not made progress within themselves, instead opting to continue to puzzle over "why" and "what is HE doing now".

Sometimes there is no explanation (not apparent, anyway) - and that means that the challenge is simply to change your own life and behavior, regardless of who did what to whom and whether or not the "doer" is NPD (and most cases do not include an official diagnosis of anything at all, so is all layman conjecture).

As Dr. Grossman's essays point out, Narcissism is both a cause AND an effect of voicelessness. To me, this means that the true voices/identities of the narcissists in my life are no less and no more important than mine. To tolerate or love them is optional, but to recognize them for what they truly are - products of their experiences - is an important step toward recognizing ME.

[Anonymous]

What is your point? With all due respect you come across as holier than thou and somewhat of a know-it-all. If that is the case why bother with this group?

[Anonymous]

Not my intention to bother, which is why I confine these ideas to this post rather than intruding on someone else's (not that I think that's what you're doing, you're responding directly to my post, that's okay. I AM challenging a status quo, so I don't expect otherwise).

I would never dream of presenting these ideas in another post, unless a relevant question was raised and the questioner seemed open to it - that WOULD make me holier-than-thou - and I'm not. I don't respond directly to the posts that bother me, simply because I respect the rights of everyone here to their own discrete experiences and feelings, even if I don't agree with how they approach them. I have, in fact, provided a couple of supportive responsives in other posts, when I've felt I have something useful to offer on the subject. If I've only felt put off, I've stayed out of it. That is not a criticism of you, by the way. You have a right to respiond in any way you see fit.

My reason for continuing to work in this thread is basically two-fold:

1: Posting gives me a means of articulating and reinforcing my thoughts to myself...using my voice functionally and claiming some ownership, as it were.

2. If I'm fortunate, there may be some others here, who like me, arrived because of the content of the essays in GENERAL (rather than just the parts about Narcissism, although those have great merit, too), and may also feel ready to discuss those ideas on a different level (notice I did not say "better"). Hope, in a nutshell. Because the title does not include Narcissism. Beacause the essays and articles do not dwell on Narcissism. And because the impact of Narcissism is acknowledged.  ALL these things are important.

That's really about it. Plus, as I've been through so much myself, I also have some very passionate feelings about my experiences.

It should not be overlooked that learning to deal with criticisms like yours without sinking into the ground or running away, or worse, questioning the validity of my own thoughts and feelings- e.g., being true to my voice - can't hurt. It can be really tough to listen to a sharp criticism and resist the temptation to hide or deflect.

Granted, it's a bit easier online than in life, where I sometimes crumble like a stale cookie then proceed to crush myself with my own bootheel of self-sabotage (little bitty squashed up voice so wretched and undeserving may as well not have anything to start with crap), but hey - you have to start somewhere.

[Anonymous]

I have been reading this thread.  I think I was very caught up with my Narc significant other.  Going over and over in my mind the rhyme and reason of his behavior.  It is true what you say.......you can only make progression with your own health when you can give those thoughts up and choose to live again.  You cannot change the past, only your response to the future.  As a survivor of an N it took me about 4 years to really begin to pull out of it and start to live again.  So keep posting because validation of your reality is everything.  Patz

[Anonymous]

Thank you, Patz. I really appreaciate that!