Author Topic: Narcissism Part II  (Read 52345 times)

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2005, 02:18:57 PM »
Thanks GFN and Bunny. Both of you have provided good insights into the "misunderstanding" between Portia and myself.

Portia, I still question the meaning of your statement about IQ, but I am sorry that I did not handle it more gracefully. Some of the posts here have left me feeling quite raw, hurt and misunderstood, and I also have to admit that intellect-directed statements are a hot-button issue for me.

I come from the only family I've encountered that thinks it's a bad thing to be smart and will punish you horribly if you slip up and somehow make them feel bad because you are. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

They have used statements very similar to yours: "I hate to question your IQ, but...". or "We all know how smart you are, but...", etc, etc.

It's hard to figure out your identity when you know a) Everyone says it's good to be smart, but b) people will hate you for it and get a kick out of denigrating you for it.

Anyway, I've got a lot to do that I should have been attending before now. I will respond to points and inquiries as soon as I can, probably next week (I think academics and strategies can take the weekend off!).

T (I think I'll keep it, Guest For Now. Ownership and all that.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2005, 09:58:13 PM »
Okay, I lied. I had a little personal epiphany (thanks to some of the discussion now taking place), which I'll share a liitle later(this is great, now I'm really thinking and putting puzzle pieces together!).

But first:

Bunny said on another thread:
Quote
They've told you a lot of bad things about yourself but none of it's true. They need to shut up and go away. That's my thought and I don't think I'm bad.


Why on earth, Bunny, would you think you're bad for saying that? For sure, we can go toe-to-toe on "healing language concepts" as,  well..uh. say..., my version of Sega-Genesis for the Self-Impaired (you are supposed to laugh right now), but the first part of what you said is a good example of "triage (temporary fix)" language, which I don't dispute is useful.

Frankly, I'm surprised. I haven't gotten the feeling so far that you would ever be so seemingly (shoot  me if I'm wrong) defensive about such a statement. I just see you as pretty confident about your postiions and not especially needing to defend them, so I'm a liittle...well... am I seeing this right? What does that mean, really? (I just don't understand; it does not jive with what  I've seen from you. Not to me, with our limited involvement, anyway).

serena

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2005, 12:03:12 AM »
In my second year of school, at the age of five, my parents were called in for a 'chat' with the teacher and headmistress.  They were told, in front of me, that I was a 'genius'..........  I instantly knew this 'label' was inaccurate but realised how delighted they were.  I also knew I could never live up to this falsehood so I never opened a book from that day up until I took my 'A level' equivalents. I also realised that from my mother's point of view, this was the only thing that mattered about me i.e. conditional love.

It took me thirty years before I even tried to fulfill any potential I had.  I went to University and graduated in 2001 with a 2:1 in psychology.  This was funded by my wonderful husband and they were the most amazing years of my life, mostly through the friends I made.

I always think there are two things in life you should never be big-headed about - these are IQ and physical looks because this is largely genetic.

I am much prouder of qualities such as empathy, compassion and a sense of humour.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2005, 01:22:37 AM »
Absolutely agree with you Serena. My formal education took a similar route as yours.
I also know that being well educated doesn't mean that I know it all.

serena

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2005, 02:05:16 AM »
As you know, I have a university education through my own endeavours.  My husband doesn't even have an 'O' level and is a plasterer.  Not only does he earn four times what I do, he is also much more intelligent than me.

Give him a broadsheet cryptic crossword and he is a happy man.  Ask him any mathematical situation and he can work it out in his head!!  I'm lost once I run out of fingers to count on.

Not only is he bright, but he is so emotionally together - it's frightening!!  He doesn't have a complicated bone in his body - what you see is what you get.  I can't tell you all how refreshing and wonderful these qualities are..............

bunny

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2005, 10:23:32 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Why on earth, Bunny, would you think you're bad for saying that?


I think you misunderstood. I was trying to give the poster permission to have any negative thought she wanted through example. I may have expressed myself clumsily.

bunny

bunny

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2005, 10:28:31 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous
For sure, we can go toe-to-toe on "healing language concepts" as,  well..uh. say..., my version of Sega-Genesis for the Self-Impaired (you are supposed to laugh right now.)


I might laugh if I had any idea of what this meant. I appreciate the humorous feeling anyway.  :wink:

bunny

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2005, 12:54:34 PM »
Bunny:

I guess I'm referencing the way people choose to spend their "free" time. I'm not interested in video games,  nor do I think I'll learn a skill that is useful to me, so I don't indulge. Plus I'm older, so pinball is better to me. A silly joke on myself, reslly.

Others:

Your posts relate to my little epiphany, and I was illuminated by the conflict between Portia and I.

I realized after thinking about his experience that I have been in self-kick mode for many, many years and I now understand that I don't need to kick me anynore - it wasn't possible, under the conditions, to do differently than I did. Every choice was a loser.

Those conflicting messages I spoke about:

It's good to be smart.

It's bad to be smart (we'll punish you).

The net effect for me: I've frozen in every classroom situation I've ever been in. The fear of being smart (e.g., succeding) was so intense that I could not move. I would try over and over, but not be able to maintain a forward motion. This is the result of being, as one of you said, subjected to unrealistic expectations (no one called me a genius, ever, just gifted, I assume in the regular somewhat above avarage way). Not in the sense that I was expected to be a genius or smarter than I was, but that I was expected to be smart under certain conditions only, and only if it made mom look good.

If I was smart in the wrong way, in a way that exposed my Mother (I understood something that she didn't, could do what she couldn't, caught her in a lie or a weasel), I was subjected to such intense hostility and denigration that I eventually learned it was better to not be smart at all than risk being in that position. Of course, I felt guilt for not performing, so I would try, try again - but repeatedly freeze and fail miserably. Not by doing the work incorrectly, but being unable to bring myself to do it at all! I only felt worse and worse, never better.

I have to say that my teachers/educators tried everything they could think of - assuming the main problem was that I wasn't challenged, which was also true, but didn't even touch the real problem. I couldn't articulate it to them because I did not understand it as anything but MY hopeless deficiency. I found a good "cheater" system, though, in JHS - I just read textbooks and other books, cutting class and just showing up for exams and Major Projects. I aced those and squeaked out with a D, year afer year.

The system, while a good band-aid, was not enough, really.  I eventually just gave up,  dropped out and left home at 15. Went to college some, off and on, but the fear and the problems remained. I learned to cope by self-teaching, which worked beautifully because - as Grossman says in his "liitle voice" essay - I didn't WANT anything, other than the learning itself. I had no objective, I learned for pure pleasure. Put an objective on it, though - faggedaboudit. I had to be smart in secret, kind of.

Outside of school, I had friends in legit academia, even some Professors whose classes I dropped,  read copiously, had great discussions and debates - that helped me immensely in terms of understanding my capabilities, at least, and also helping me understand that some people would celebrate my smarts (imagine that) and pat me on the back if I made an astute observation or countered an argument accurately and effectively. Fortunately, as an adult, I was able to l to find good, rewarding work despite my lack of credentials, because a few people recognized some ability or another and - well - nurtured me a bit, as much as one adult can do for another. those people remain good friends to this day, althoughI live in another part of the contry now and am self-employed (works for Mom hours).

It never has helped me with the kick-self, though, the relative success I've had. I've just continued to feel deficient all my life, thinking about all that in purely self-directed, self-punishing terms.

After this experience with Portia, however, I got to thinking about it and realized that I really did the best I could. I don't blame me anymore for choosing not to choose. Sure, life would have sure been different, and probably better in some ways, if I had been able to overcome it. But I was little - as in second grade little - when all this started.

I can't blame the child anymore. In fact, I may send her back to school one day, just for the pure pleasure - or maybe so she can just learn to be comfortable with being smart out loud.

Anyway, that's that for the epiphany.

Also, something else - short and sweet:

Sometimes when we disagree, our problems do the fighting for us.

I get a pretty funny mental picture when I think about my husband and I disagreeing in the audience while our "problems" are in the ring dukeing it out.

serena

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2005, 02:38:59 PM »
You sound like a really nice person.  Apart from formal education, I am a naturally curious person and read copiously.  I almost believe that's my reason for being i.e. to learn, grow and develop as a person.

Don't be ashamed of being smart, but don't give it too much credence in terms of how you envision yourself.

I am also capable of becoming fascinated with reality TV shows and would never pass a day without reading a trashy 'red top' tabloid line to feed my curiousity for trivia and gossip!!

As I have said before, qualities such as empathy, compassion, kindness and a sense of humour are far, far more important in my book.....

Concentrate on these.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2005, 03:28:00 PM »
Thank you, Serena.

To be honest, I never give it any thought unless someone uses it as a weapon - as I noted earlier in the thread, only my mother and her brother have ever used terms like IQ, intelleigence, intellect, smarts or other when trying to point out something to me. And always in the same way Portia did...

No one else ever mentions it, nor do I, independently of this kind of event. If I think of it, it's in the same terms as Mother, Uncle and Portia: "For someone so smart, you sure are stupid...". You know.

The whole beginning and middle of this thread is devoted to "Humanizing your Narcissist as a Means of Humanizing Yourself" and "Language Modification ifn Pursuit of Healing and Re-clamation of I Voice" (or whatever drivelly sort of names you'd like to give those ideas). I think that speaks to compassion. If you want humour, I've really enjoyed thinking about the "Southern Bell Narcissist" in the "Wishing She Were Dead" thread. In general, I think I am a kind person - just naturally and for no particular reason.

Thank you for your comments.

bunny

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2005, 03:58:53 PM »
There is a phenomenon called "attacks on linking." This is when an impaired person (narcissistic, paranoid, borderline, whatever) unconsciously feels threatened by a rational thought process. They are threatened by putting links together and coherently reflecting on something. They prefer impulsive overreactions. Thinking about oneself and others is perceived as highly dangerous. So they destroy the possibility of thinking in themselves and in their children.

Maybe this happened to you. And you're now feeling it's possible to put links together in relative safety. It was probably dangerous to do it earlier.
 
bunny

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2005, 04:25:14 PM »
One thing. Everyone does 'attacks on linking' it's not limited to severely dysfunctional people. But people with problems do it more.

bunny

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2005, 09:24:37 AM »
Quote
... only my mother and her brother have ever used terms like IQ, intelleigence, intellect, smarts or other when trying to point out something to me.


This makes me think that you were not really reacting to Portia but instead, you were actually speaking to the people of your past, reacting to them, after all this time, saying it to them??? Might this be possible?

I think many of us do this.  Someone says something that rings so close to the junk we've heard in the past, from those who abused us, words that hurt us, and we react by responding to the past event and person/people, rather than the present person/people/situation (who may not be saying anything close to what those people of the past said).  We are actually flung back into the past, sometimes, and not aware of it.  We associate so much with what has hurt us and if someone triggers those hurts, we sometimes strike back with such full force, we shock even ourselves.  We later wonder....why did I react like that?

I've done it.  I've seen others do it.  How often are we doing this in the real world?  Do we even know we're doing it?  How can we correctly respond to stuff that triggers our memories like that??

Guest for now

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2005, 09:42:59 AM »
Me too, Guest for now. I’ve reacted very badly to thinking someone was trying to get me to think in their way, trying to force their opinions on me….like my step-father did…..it was a great learning lesson. It’s quite shocking when it hits you full on, suddenly, when you realise you’re doing that, reacting to the past and not the present.

How to know when we’re doing it for real in non-online life? Listen to the rise in heart-beats, ask if we’re sweating, panicking, shamed – in fact any emotional response. Even lust for someone new! Why? What is happening here that I’m responding like this? How does he/she remind me of my father/mother? Why am I afraid? Why do I feel shamed? Why am I angry?

Trouble is, it takes so much time and thinking, it’s easier not to do this. Thinking is hard work.  :roll:

onlyrenting1

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2005, 11:17:23 AM »
Bunny and Guest,

Because you are so well versed the many areas of Psychologocal disorders.  

Quote
Trouble is, it takes so much time and thinking, it’s easier not to do this. Thinking is hard work.


Each of us has these 3 egos. So you could say you had a Knee Jerk reaction in the Child ego state?

1. Your Parent

2. Your Adult

3. Your Child.

So as an adult we react in one of these egos very quickly with no time to stop and think what is appropriate.
We react as we did when we were hurt as a child.
So maybe the reaction is like a Knee Jerk reaction, almost uncontrollable?

I saw this yesterday with my N-Husband. we were watching the Exorcist, My (N-H=6 yr old) was teasing my 12yr old, he said  her dolls were going to start turning their heads and just trying to bug her.
Somthing happen and she said he was "evil and his head was going to start to turn full circle."

He got mad and left the room and now he is not talking.
somehow this is all my fault and Im responsible for MY Daughters mouth.
She said she was sorry for the comment, but he would have nothing to do with the appology.

I think I can remember something about his Big N-Mother, calling him evil, this may have sparked the Knee Jerk reaction.
It's going to be a great Day.

I love this stuff just an observation.   onlyrenting