This, Portia, is what I wanted: A real dialogue (poly-logue?) not just about band-aid self protections, but deep principles of human rlationships, self-perception and language. Here it is!! Everyone thinking, learning, debating.
There are so many good, astute comments, challenges and thoughts flying around. I'm going to kick back a little, watch and learn for a bit.
In the interim, Luego Dude's questions to me are simple enough to answer, so I will:
Quote:
I think we should be able to protect ourselve in a more well-rounded and self-specific way than labeling anyone, even an abuser, an "N" or anything else. I think we are NOT protecting ourselves very effectively if we compartmentalize all abusers into "n" category, if only because all abusers are different. Some are Narcissists, some are not. If all you are lookning for is the "N" profile, you could very well miss the next abuser coming your way.
Who decides who is an abuser? Are all abusers also victims too?
‘Person’ seems a good label. What labels do you apply to yourself T?
My comments about abusers were in response to a question/comment specifically addressing abusers as such. In general, throughout this thread, my posts have been clearly in support of abdication of labels for the sake of the labeler - more globally, using moderation of language to manage/control/avoid internal stress and negative feelings/self-perception. I think labeling others implicity gives us an unspoken de-facto label, so if we use compartmentalizing language toward others, we are silently applying the opposite label to ourselves, which in the cased of "victim" and " abused" may distract us from our true power. If you read back through my earlier posts this is outlined in greater detail (it wad only recently that I became "T" - previously, I was just guest who took a lot of heat for my postions).
Seeker, thinker, writer, partner, mom, musician, nature-lover, smoker, red wine-drinker, and more. I try to focus on these labels for myself, though on a dark day the words may be less corporeally descriptive and more personally condemning. I'm trying to do what I've advertised here and use language to change/moderate my thinking so I can dispense with all that as much as possible. It's a process.
In a related comment elsewhere in this thread, you inquired abouth whether an abuser should be better considerd a flawed person. Yes - and no. Primarily, an abuser is a flawed person - this describes the person in noun terms - what they are. An abuser is someone, in my definition, who has regularly behaved abusively toward another in one form another, while having litle awareness and/or conscience about their actions. Basically, that's the verb description - describing the action. In any event, I don't use the term often to describe a person, unless it is in direct response to something already presented in that context. I like words like Ex, Mother, Husband, etc..., without "N" or Abuser attached. I feel that refraining from using those terms does not compromise the reality of their behavior, but I would rather define them simply as people rather than as a disorder or a behavior. For example My mother's abusiveness" vs. My Abuser Mother." My descriptions of my experiences illustrate any abuse or narcissism or what have you very effectively without deconstructing the person.
I would venture that most abusers are/have been victims, aside from those with serious reality contact issues (voices, hallucinations, etc). In fact, those people are, to me, exempt from this conversation - different animal.
Again, the quote you pulled in conjunction with your inquiry was in direct response to Bunny's comment about "Using N-Language to protect their psyches from an abuser". I'm guessing that you and I feel more or less the same way about it all, from the content of your posts in general.
T - why do think Iamane has "balls"? What does this mean to you?
and why do you think you lack them? and how are you cultivating them?
I think Iamane is more consistently direct and challenging than I am, although she is not a confrontational bully about it, either. Often, I decline to ask very directed questions of other posters (and people in the world, too), instead opting to use language like "we", "one", "persons", etc. Although I think in one way this is a good thing - demostrates my intention to try to be socially repsobile and considerate as much as possible -, in another it can prevent me from making my points more sharply, honestly and deeply. At the root of it is a definite fear of my own potential to be a bully (we all have it), and worse, a fear of being "punished" by withdrawl of affection/esteem.
I think on this one I get an A+ for academics, but maybe a C- in lab.
Again, it's all a process.
And GFN, you are so very, very welcome. Thank you, too (and everyone else here perticipating), for your insights.
T
