Author Topic: Narcissism Part II  (Read 52227 times)

MTOTM.

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2005, 03:59:09 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
As reagrds my husband's use of my child to harm me , I just stood up and said: "You can choose to play games with me through our daughter, if you wish. You know it's bad parenting, I know it, everybody with half a brain knows it - but you can choose that if you like. However, I don't choose to play those games, I will not respond to them other than to remind you that you are choosing to hurt your child,  and I will not repair your damaged relationship with her for you. I will provide her with any comfort she needs, but I'm not making any excuses for you or covering up your game-playing, even to her. Period."


This statement is disturbing. Particularly the lines highlighted. This speaks of a level of dissociating AS A PARENT, by both of the parents in this accounting.

It presents a picture of a lack of proper or appropriate parental support and protection for the child from both parents. I find it quite abhorrent that any parent would knowingly allow any other person to abuse and use their child for any selfish means or relationship dominance.

The consenting parent is equally guilty of abuse in this case. If any parent is aware that any other person is using or abusing their child or any child they have a responsibility to put a stop to it immediately. Once they become aware that their child is being used as a tool or weapon by the other parent just to get at them, they have an even greater responsibility to put an immediate stop it, for the child's sake. No parent should allow their child to suffer needlessly, or because of them, or because of their dysfunctional relationship. Especially when they are fully conscious of the fact that they are the reason the child is being abused!

By not active protective measures they are giving their consent to the abuse and allowing the abuse to continue while they are both playing a love-game with the child as currency. Especially disturbing if they are aware the child is being deliberately hurt.

Delusional thinking is one parent believing that the comfort that they offer the child will repair any damage done to the child by both parents? The covert abuser offering comfort is rather perverse and causes me to recall many countless similar childhood stories shared here on this forum, like
"I was being emotionally/verbally abused by my mother and my father never protected me from her."

Thankfully his conscience eventually kicked in and he stopped, and I suppose the other more covert-abusive parent could take credit for that and could even use that relationship-dynamic victory in the future to gain further personal ground.

It is just plain wrong, and we are as guilty as the perp, if we allow any  situation of child abuse to continue unaddressed, or to continue until the abuser sees the error of their ways. How terribly sad all of these games are for the children.

My Thoughts On The Matter

MTOTM

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2005, 04:59:43 PM »
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I think labeling, once past the point of essential understanding, gets in our way.
T


IMO you defeat yourself with your very own argument T.

Correct labeling of a ourselves or another person is essential for a successful relationships and the decision making processes of life. You know, adult stuff.  Intelligent labelling leads to intelligent prioritizing and then intelligent action hopefully. Not just understanding for understanding's sake alone. High IQ/Low EQ stuff.

For example. Understanding that your child was being abused by their father would hopefully have led you to the sad recognition of the fact that he was in fact, primarily,  an abuser in the context of your family. Once the approriate label was affixed, possibly with professional help, then direct intervention is the next step because you have accepted a position and made a decision. No 'child-abuser/wife-abuser' label or acceptance by you equalled no need for you to take protective and approriate action. Which was the case in your example. This also devolves you of responsibility for consequences.

If you reject labelling then you are avoiding responsibility and aren't  moving to the point of action because you are not accepting responsibility.

Denying the need for or validity of labels enables you to kid yourself that there is anything more you could have done or that there was anything else to deal with. This is a cop out and a way of avoiding reality.

This philosophy of yours explains why you are so oppposed to people being labeled N's. It's an essential defence for you against facing the consequences of your own poor decision-making.  You are labouring in self-justifaction over your own actions and inactions, especially when you haven't wanted to or been able to deal with the consequences of calling a spade a spade in your life.

My Thoughts On This Matter

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2005, 05:03:11 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
check back - it was a direct attack and accusation, worded very clearly. GFN came to my defense. Ask again if it doesn't look over the top to you.


Okay I believe I found it. I don't question whether it's a direct attack and accusation. I'm referring to your statement that the person felt there was something 'slightly disagreeable' and that she is 'distraught' about Ns. Because you are very specific about language and its power, I noticed this statement. It kind of leapt out at me. I wondered whether you had some inside knowledge about the poster's feelings. I see the poster as extremely angry, not seeing something 'slightly disagreeable' but rather extremely disagreeable, and not distraught. I'm not in agreement with the poster btw. I'm just wondering what led you to say this about the poster's reasons and feelings.

bunny

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2005, 05:30:41 PM »
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As reagrds my husband's use of my child to harm me , I just stood up and said: "You can choose to play games with me through our daughter, if you wish. You know it's bad parenting, I know it, everybody with half a brain knows it - but you can choose that if you like. However, I don't choose to play those games, I will not respond to them other than to remind you that you are choosing to hurt your child, and I will not repair your damaged relationship with her for you. I will provide her with any comfort she needs, but I'm not making any excuses for you or covering up your game-playing, even to her. Period."


I think it's important to remember that the context of this statement is one where I did not have control over how my husband chose to behave. Factually, it was his choice to play games or not, and my choice to participate or not. Since he was commiting no illegal acts, I had no power to force him to alter his behavior.

However, I was able to say "This is bad parenting and you know it" but refuse to engage with him further on the direct issue, other than to point it out when he did it. I then walked away, refusing to play. I was also able to tell him that I would not cover up for him or make excuses, nor would I try to "fix" any damage to his relationship, because I would then be teaching my daughter to ignore her own reality. I did emphasize, however, that I would provide all the comfort she might need as a result of these transactions, and I did deliver on that.

Basically, I refused to be party to the game. Every "You Stop That Now You Bad Man" reaction on my part would have been construed, under the conditions, as an invitation to play, and would have escalated the whole business.

I used this illustration to demonstrate taking control of the situation to the best of my ability and within my legal rights, not letting myself get sucked in by rising to the argumentative bait. If I do not dispute his choice, he can't fight with me to affirm his power. I simply gave him his power and said "Here. Have the control - and the responsibility for how you use it."

Say whatever you want about my ineffectiveness or destructiveness or whatever, but the strategy was effective and it worked. He stopped doing it after a couple of months of me repeating the same speech every time.

Speaking of argumentative bait...sometimes, I will nibble. But most often, I bypass it in favor of more delicious fare, the kind without barbed hooks in it.

MTOTM

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2005, 06:11:35 PM »
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I used this illustration to demonstrate taking control of the situation to the best of my ability and within my legal rights, not letting myself get sucked in by rising to the argumentative bait. If I do not dispute his choice, he can't fight with me to affirm his power. I simply gave him his power and said "Here. Have the control - and the responsibility for how you use it. T

I'm looking at your child's legal rights and how you failed to enforce those, not your legal rights that you were busily enforcing. Our children are separate entities with their own rights and identity which it is our responsibility, especially as parents, to enforce until they can.

You failed to dispute his choice in any significant protective way so abuse continued for months. By your failure to intervene appropriately and your particular type of inaction you affirmed his power to your child and denied your child their full legal rights. IMO you had full opportunity and responsibility and power to intervene and protect your child immediately from the abusive-power and effects of the other parent. Whether you like/accept it or not!

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Speaking of argumentative bait...sometimes, I will nibble. But most often, I bypass it in favor of more delicious fare, the kind without barbed hooks in it

I see your 'Barbed Hook' comment as simply you projecting T. I refuse to accept that comment if it was dircted at me. I am speaking to you honestly and directly from my own firm beliefs about child-abuse and it's many players and guises. If you are interpreting that as Barbed Hooks from me, that is your loss and your problem to sort out.

My Thoughts On This Matter

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2005, 06:32:47 PM »
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One of my issues in contemplating leaving my own situation is that I may be aborting my own growth process. I keep coming back to the question "what am I meant to learn here?" I am not a victim, but instead a strong, capable, powerful woman. Many of the patterns in my familial relationships are clearly reflected in my situation with my spouse.


I can't say whether leaving or staying is best for your growth. Certainly I benefited from our separation, but I am also benefiting from our reconcilliation. Sometimes getting to the benefits can be a painful process - but without some of the conflicts and hurts we have been experiencing, I might not be in a position to refine my self-perception as deeply. If I had moved on to another relationsship or was not in one at this time, either the newness or the isolation would have prevented me from understanding myself not just a s a discrete individual (separation helped that ), but also in terms of my self-assigned/accepted roles in relationships and how those roles serve a hidden purpose. It can be a double-edged sword.

I can't say for sure one way or the other if I was "meant" to learn anything, but I did, at some point, make a conscious decision that "By damn, if I gotta suffer, I'm gonna get something useful out of it!" I found that more helpful than pressuring myself to live up to a "higher purpose", especially since I personally don't subscribe to the idea that suffering is "for a reason". Sometimes, it IS just random and makes no sense. But usually, you can find something valuable to take away, if you try. Even if that's only "let's not let that happen again".

Most recently, I've enjoyed Dr. Grossmans essays on this site. There is no direct link for this page, so you'll have to go to ww.voicelessness.com. Although certainly not comprehensive, they do give a nice summary snapshot of the fundamental thought/effects of the concept of voice and voicelessness.

Many of the more specific thoughts I have on the subject of I Voice and Labeling (voicelessness carries a self-labeling, self diminishing component) are directly inspired by these essays, which is why I chose to post here.

Books that have helped me with practical problem-solving and decision-making include The Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Sourcebook (helped during crisis mode quite a lot), Glen Schiraldi (MD? PhD?) and After the Affair, Janis Spring - which very surprisingly contains lots of concepts applicable to situations other than infidelity. I SOOO did not want to crack the cover of that book (recommended by joint therapist). I was just sure it was going to ask me to forgive and forget and just get over it. Instead, it was very affirming for me, the betrayed spouse, yet still asked lots of penetrating questions of both the betrayed and the unfaithful spouse -many of whichm, in retrospect (it's been awhile), relate to voice, though not in that language.

There is another that I can't find (I have too many books - and some of them, in deferenece to the feelings of my husband, I keep tucked out of sight. It would suck for me if I thought he was constantly trying to diagnose me. We talk about all this sometimes, but I don't find it helpful to belabor the point) that was partuicularly helpful in coming to understand my husband in crisis mode. I believe it is simply titled "Narcissism". It is a slim volume by a Medical/Psychoanalytic professional. It describes the continuum theory very well, and helped me understand how a man who was seemingly centered and okay (if a bit impatient and moody) some of the time could seem so out of touch with himself and me at others, escalating in crisis to what appeared to be a severe psychotic episodea (we both agree with that assesment, as do both therapists involved with us). This also helped me to understand how those nasty-self-directed messages, learned and adopted in our formative years, can drive a person to divorce himself - thus everyone else, in both the literal and figurative senses - and how we repeat those messages internally and often without our knowledge.

Jung's archetypes, while probably read by most people participating in this thread, still helps in terms of finding one's own subtext, I think. simplistic, but does help pinpoint emotinal/behavioral trends in a very concrete way.

I've been influenced in my thinking by so many works, including fiction (Salman Rushdie has an interesting spin on trauma and birth/re birth in the opening chapters of The Satanic Verses), eastern thought (zen in general, Peace is Every Step (Please don't ask me to spell the author's name without going to find it first), sociological works regarding race and class, etc. I just like to read and am naturally curious, so I end up with lots of stuff packed in there that influence the outgo. I guess I'm always experimenting with the things I learn - see if they hold up or not for me.

 It's hard to pin down a single source for the exact philosophy (that is the right word, thanks) I've come to have. This is really a result of piecing together lots of different ideas and premises from elsewhere into terms that are meaningful to my life and my self.



And once again, for those who feel I am trying to run their lives: I am posting simply to communicate my ideas, share what has been sucessful and not for me, and to refine my concepts of voice through the concentration that posting requires.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2005, 06:34:13 PM »
Hello all,

Luego asked:  
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So your fear is that the abuser is causing you emotional harm, mainly through your children? And your children are also being damaged emotionally? What do your children say about the situation?


One won't talk about it, seems to believe what has been communicated by my "abuser", seems to consider my "abuser" to be a model human being, etc.  The other is upset and says he/she "can't stand it" when this "abuser" person "says bad things about" me, seems to avoid contact with my "abuser" (as much as possible), voices a desire to remain out of the conflict and states he/she feels "stuck in the middle".


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So you are not afraid of the person themselves. You are afraid of the consequences of them influencing others, including your children?


Yep.

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What are the consequences? If you think about the worst that could happen, just how bad is that?


The consequences could be severe.

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This indicates a disagreement between the two of you and that you would like it resolved?


I have no desire to ever resolve anything with this person.  I want the person out of my life and away from my family.  I want nothing to do with this person again.  I care about the person but the reality is...this person does not see that they have a problem and will not likely change their behaviour in this lifetime.  They will continue to hurt me, as sure as cold ___ in a dead dog, if I were to allow them back into my life.

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Perhaps it would be better if the person said whatever things they have to say, directly to you and beat the crap out of you.


Perhaps but the person has no spine and will never face me.  The person is a sneak and a liar and has no guts.   I made a big mistake in confronting this person, awhile back, and that sent them off the deep end.  I'm not the least bit afraid to speak my thoughts and feelings clearly to this person but this person will not face me.  It is much easier (and possibly) more satisfying for them to try to destroy me by other means.

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It also sounds as though you perhaps have some sympathy for their viewpoint too?


I understand that this person was also abused, which explains but does not excuse their behaviour.  I suspect the person is projecting feelings from the past toward me.

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We cannot control others but we can attempt to communicate with them and understand why they behave as they do.


I am not interested in attempting any further communication with this person.  I think I understand why they are behaving the way they are but this does not make it right.

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...or we reach a stage where what they do no longer affects us.


That is definately my goal.

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Is it instead your own thoughts and feelings that are affecting you?


I can't think of a thought that would produce a positive feeling at those moments when my one child pulls away and the other expresses hurt because of what my "abuser" says and does.  I want to scream and I want to throttle this person and tell them that they are "abusing" my children and me.    Confronting them, however, is not an option.  Instead, I try to soothe the one child and help he/she to express feelings and I try to reach out to the other and be patient and hope for the future.

I'm using the label "abuser", by the way, because this person is one and is indeed doing that and it seems the most accurate description, since I choose not to devulge our relationship (otherwise I would just say...my  blank).    I see this person as sick but not wholly evil.  I see the person as human, fragile and yes....terrified....of the truth about themselves.  Inside, somewhere, there is a small child who was badly hurt and who is now striking out at the wrong people.  For that...I feel very sad and wish I could make it all better.

T wrote:  
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I think what I'm ainming at with this statement is moderating the language I use when I talk to MYSELF.


I call this self-talk.

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I unintentionally keep myself in the weakened position - trapped, in essence, by my diligence in maintaining a narrowly defined control (thus the C- in lab). This robs me of my own voice to express my anger and to take action about it, because somewhere in the programming of my childhood I learned to be very still and quiet while I waited for the threat to go away ("until it ends"), in your words.


I don't think I'm keeping myself in a weakened position.  This person has definate power and knows it.  Anything I say will exascerbate the situation.

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What was most helpful for me when we were (I thought permanently) separated was to stop saying to myself "My Life as I Knew It is Gone/Destroyed". That was a true statement, but it did not serve me to keep saying it that way. Instead, I taught myself to say: "I am out of an unfulfilling, hurtful life and am Starting a New Life."


For the most part, I have done the same thing (except my old life was not unfulfilling or hurtful).

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As for the reputation-smear campaign stuff, that was harder. There was really nothing I could say to HIM to make that stop.


Ditto for the person in my situation.

It sounds like you've been through quite a time, T, and I commend you for sticking it out and working to improve things.  You seem to be trying to be self-aware and looking to grow into the best person you can be.  You are taking responsibility for your behaviour in the relationship and trying to help your husband understand you.  You seem to have a handle on seeing things from his side too and it sounds like some things are improving.  I hope it continues to get better and better from now on.

GFN

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2005, 06:47:06 PM »
I think you need to examine the lack of information with which you are arguing.

How do you know that the behaviors met the legal definition of abuse (I was talking to GFN about game-playing that ex-spouses sometimes do, not outright abuse)?

How do you know that I did not consult with an attorney to determine my rights/my child's rights (I did. Spent 200.00 with the best family attorney in town for one hour of"nothing you can do". Was I supposed to cause such a ruckus, with no legal backing, that I lost complete control over my daughter's situation?)

As for the bait comment - I'm not projecting.  You are being argumentative and hostile, making serious accusations without nearly enough information to support them. you are failing to present a thoughful argument or rebuttal to anything, you are merely trying to punish me and make me feel small because you don't like what I say and you don't agree.

Let me be more direct: I will not play this game with you. You can choose to talk to yourself out loud about it and me to try to get my attention, but I'm not gonna play unless you are reasoned and civil, and at least make a tiny effort to get adequate information before leveling such serious allegations.

MTOTM

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2005, 07:02:41 PM »
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As for the bait comment - I'm not projecting. T

You were.

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You are being argumentative and hostile. T

This is not me being argumentative and hostile but you can't know that so you are assuming. I'm simply saying what I think. No hostility. You are projecting again.

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you are failing to present a thoughful argument or rebuttal to anything. T
Once again, I'm not arguing. Just calling it as I see it.
If you can't see anything thoughtful in what I've said that's your right and loss.  
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you are merely trying to punish me and make me feel small

This, is you projecting big time now. That is your realtionship with your mother you are projecting onto me. That is your realtionship with husband you are projecting on to me. That is nothing to do with me and what I am about. Your loss that you can't see that.

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because you don't like what I say and you don't agree.

I am not arguing with you, just stating my opinion and position as you and others have a right to do. I don't agree with abusive parenting, or it being enabled by denial.

That's all for now
MTOTM

Kaz

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #144 on: January 28, 2005, 12:30:23 AM »
Thanks for your reply T.
One thing I'd like to mention about the danger of always being on the look out for N's, (in a paranoid way). I think this does happen but it is in conjunction with the knowledge that you have attracted this type already and sure as hell, don't want to again. Those that keep going down the same road haven't worked that out obviously, but those that know about the mechanics of a narcissist are on a constant vigil. Self protection.

I do hope that everything works out well for you.
Kaz.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #145 on: January 28, 2005, 08:08:46 AM »
Good morning:

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One thing I'd like to mention about the danger of always being on the look out for N's, (in a paranoid way). I think this does happen but it is in conjunction with the knowledge that you have attracted this type already and sure as hell, don't want to again. Those that keep going down the same road haven't worked that out obviously, but those that know about the mechanics of a narcissist are on a constant vigil. Self protection.


Does this really work?  Being hyper-vigilant, in a paranoid way, knowing the mechanics of a narcissist, and always being on the look out for the type?

The reason I ask is because I truly believe these people have an uncanny way of insidiously slipping in closer to their prey (that's what it feels like to me.......like a hunter came after me as prey).

My theory is the better I know myself, the harder I try to give out "I'm not prey" signals, the more I do to keep myself from being mentally and emotionally vunerable, the better.  I think it's me that attracts the type and it's me that has to change to decrease the changes of repeating that.
I also think, some of it is just chance.

Let's face it, sometimes hunters are just good hunters and sometimes prey is just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Can we really protect ourselves from those who behave like this by constantly scanning others for signs, behaviours and traits?

It could be?  I just haven't thought about it that way before.  It does seem extreme and it does seem to me that if I look for that....I will see it first because we all have some N traits, don't we?

GFN

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #146 on: January 28, 2005, 08:56:08 AM »
Hello all:

A ficitional story I will call "The Trip".

Jim says to Jayne, let's take a trip.  Jayne says, "Well I really can't because I have many obligations and I really don't have the time or money right now".  Jim says, "Well, I really need you to take me to (wherever) because I need you."  Pausing, Jayne says " well, ok" because it has always been that Jim needs her.  So Jayne gets in the passengers side.  Where upon Jim says, " oh no I really need you to drive me there".  Jayne says " well how far is it". He says it is only about 2-3 hours.  Jayne thinks this is really not so bad.  So she agrees.  While driving she states she says she would like to stop by McDonald's for something to eat.  Jim replies there is no time, he has to be at this destination in a hurry.  So she complies.  Well, 3 hours pass and she is still driving.  Jayne asks are we there yet.  Jim says "Not yet".  

Jayne asks Jim " could you please drive my neck is really tired and I need to rest".  Jim replies, "Well you know you promised to drive and you know how my eyesight is."  So Jayne keeps driving.  Six hours pass.  Jayne asks, "are we there yet?"  Jim says not yet, "I really wish you would not ask, (really miffed) I will tell you when you are there."  Jayne by this time is very very tired, hungry, and needing to go to the bathroom.

"Jim, I really need to stop", Jayne says.  Where upon Jim reachs across and slaps her.  "I told you, I would tell you when to stop."  Jim, then says, "Besides, we are almost there."  Jayne says just where are we going, through her tears.   Jim replies, "We are going to see some of my friends for a great party."  Jayne makes it to the destination but only barely.

They get to Jim's party.  Many lovely and beautiful people are there.  Suddenly Jayne becomes aware that Jim is no longer with her but with a very beautiful woman.  She goes to Jim and says, "I think we need to go back now."  Jim replies, " I made it to my destination, how you get  to yours is your problem."  The end


I realize this is a very simplistic story.  However, the question is at what point in time should we take responsiblity for the abuse that is going on?

Or, is one so far into the abuse and the context of it, that you can only make decisions based on what you can do at that point in time.  You might not be able to make the best decisions possible as far as others are concerned and are doing the best you know  you can do.  Is this excusable.  That his power is so great, that stopping the car does not occur to her?

Or, do both of these things apply?

Inquiring minds want to know? :)

Patz

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #147 on: January 28, 2005, 09:29:55 AM »
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Jim says to Jayne, let's take a trip. Jayne says, "Well I really can't because I have many obligations and I really don't have the time or money right now". Jim says, "Well, I really need you to take me to (wherever) because I need you." Pausing, Jayne says " well, ok" because it has always been that Jim needs her.

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at what point in time should we take responsiblity for the abuse that is going on?

At this point:
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because I need you


A child needs its carer because it cannot survive on its own.

An adult can survive on their own.

When an adult says ‘I need you’, you have the choice of walking into that particular prison, or saying no to their demands, or walking away.

Jim does not need Jayne at any stage.
Jim is cruel, knows it and doesn't appear to have a problem with it.
Jayne needs to feel needed and complies.
It’s Jayne’s problem from the beginning.

Luego

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #148 on: January 28, 2005, 09:59:59 AM »
Luego:  Exactly.  Children are powerless individuals.  Adults have power to do whatever.  It is incumbent as an adult to do whatever it is you need to to for your children if they are in harms way.  If it means jumping out of the car at break neck speed........so be it.  

For example if you have a disabled child and this child has to have certian doctors, specials schools, special teachers etc........and you have to move to obtain these services...........only to have your SO other to tell you,  you cannot move because it INTERFERES with his progress in his company, his activities, his organizations.  Well guess what, the only recourse is to leave and do what you  have to do as a mother.......no matter what to take care of that child.....it is my obligation regardless of the who, what and where of anyone else.....period.  This is a true story. Patz

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #149 on: January 28, 2005, 10:13:12 AM »
Patz, the mother in your story is a very good, loving mother. She has my utmost respect for her actions. Too bad the SO was blinded by the idea that life is a competition. I guess he thinks by competing he gets to 'win'. Nobody has yet 'won' over death, as far as I know! luego