Need to post this

[Dawning]

Hi Everyone.  Happy New Year.  I just finished reading the thread about trying to save people.  It really touched on some things for me as well.  At the moment, I need to put this post on the board.  I don't need advice but I need to let my voice out.  I am back in the land of the rising sun and did a retreat in California which was very, very much what I needed.  I didn't smoke or drink for the duration and felt no desire to.  I am not a big smoker or drinker but I do so in social situations here where I live.  I discovered there that, in that environment, I had no desire to light up a ciggie or drink a beer.  I am still in the process of working it out.  And taking control of my life.

So I came back here on the 10th.  My grandmother was admitted into the hospital on the 13th.  She is 92 and basically getting ready to leave us.  I know she was taking alot of pain killers behind everyone's back and it must have effected her liver somehow.  It is a *medical* long story.

I phoned my grandmother and mother on xmas day.  My mother said, *you, dog, you came all the way to California but didn't come to the East coast* to which I replied, "if you speak to me like that, I won't want to come to the East Coast."  To my amazement, she didn't pick a fight.  I went on to talk to my grandmother along with my mother and steered the conversation so that they would be talking about themselves.  I told them that I loved them...coo....coo....at the same time, there was a lot of traffic through the kitchen I was in and I was talking to a fellow on his way out the door.  My mother didn't ask alot of questions nor did my grandmother.
But we assured each other that we loved each other.  Now, I can say this here, I am not sure I know what *love* is but I can say that I have received more of what seems like love (acceptance is in there) from friends than from my mother.  And I finally crawled out from under her shadow relatively recently in my 40 years of life.  I feel as though I have given alot to my family but will it ever be enough....

Now grandmother is hospital.  My aunt and cousins went to visit her.  The aunt and cousins have a tense relationship with my mother and (with the exception of one cousin) me...by proxy, it seems.  I got my mother's weeping msg on my answer phone and I called my cousin.  We talked for about an hour and she said she would keep me informed.  I then called my mother and listened to her.  I told her to *be strong* and after the call, I collected myself and wrote a letter to my grandmother and emailed it to my mother.  I told her to have someone else read it to my grandmother if she couldn't read it without crying.  So, she said, she had the nurse read it to her and my grandmother smiled.  

How can I put into words what I put in that letter?  Yes, my grandmother was my guiding light (and my grandfather who passed away in 2001) when I was a little girl.  As soon as I hit adolescence, all hell broke loose and the dysfunction started becoming clear.  I left the country at 23 and returned for regular visits.  This xmas was the first time I didn't leave the west coast.  I last saw my grandmother in 2003 and we shared a very nice two weeks together.

I know death is inevitable esp at her age.  I have tried reaching out to a few people here as this is upsetting to me but I also don't want to *bother* anyone with my woes.  I feel as though I have given and given and given and it will never be enough.  So I am trying an alternative approach: giving to myself.  

However, those two Christmas boxes remained unopened.  I opened my grandmother's one just a few days ago so I could put in the letter that I received her gifts.  They were photographs.  One, of my grandfather.  On that framed photo, she wrote, "your grandfather as you knew him."  A part of me wants to simply say, "what makes you think that you know how I saw him?"  It feels like a boundary violation but, at this point, all I can think of is to let it all go.  Just let it all go.  

My mother and one cousin were not talking.  According to my mother, my aunt and two cousins went to see them for one day - I guess they flew.  And everyone hugged and the one cousin finally spoke to my mother.  As my mother said to me, "we shared a few laughs, that is that and they left."

The other cousin has not sent me any info about this.  I am not waiting for any.  I am not victimizing myself here, but I am used to feeling *duped.*  I have no information on a funeral service.  She is still alive as far as I know.  I think I am getting closer to letting go of the pain I endured as a child; that doesn't mean that I will allow them to hurt me anymore or that I trust them but, rather, that I am getting closer to detaching from the pain and moving on and get off this cycle of pain, pain, pain that has forever been stuck to me.  

I got an ecard for xmas from my father.  It said simply that it was snowing...alot where he was and he had not seen snow like that since one year before I was born.  I did not reply.  I thought of emailing him a few nights ago - and wrote an email but didn't send it - thanking him for the ecard and telling him about my maternal grandmother.  And, since he is so fond of putting a quote at the end of his recent emails (except that one he didn't respond to where I asked him for my half-brother's contact info) I thought I would put a quote in myself: "It is the truth that frees, not your efforts to be free."  But I didn't send it.  Having that quote in my heart is enough for me.  I am not sure why I would want to give it to him.  To help him see the light?  Ha!  

That is all I can think of to write at the moment.  Thank you for reading my post and for listening.  Any comments are always welcome but not necessary.  Thank you again.  2005!  Yay!

xo.

[Anonymous]

Hiya Dawning,  so glad you had a good retreat. But what an emotional mess on the East Coast. Good answer to your mother, about not speaking to you like that.

I am not sure I know what *love* is but I can say that I have received more of what seems like love (acceptance is in there) from friends than from my mother.

It would be good if we could rely on our mother’s love. If we could be sure that every baby born has it’s mother’s love, but it’s not a ‘given’. We happen to have been unlucky in being born to the families we were born to. It’s a sadness but that’s the situation. And when we see the situation clearly, we can help ourselves and look for loving relationships elsewhere. You’re doing this.

but I also don't want to *bother* anyone with my woes

If I want to be bothered with your woes I will be. True! If I don’t I won’t. I once asked a friend “why are you doing this for me?”. I realise now that’s a dumb question. She was doing it because she wanted to. And she was helping herself too. Very rarely is any interaction one-way. I get something out of talking to you. By writing this I get to clarify my own thoughts. So thank you!

A part of me wants to simply say, "what makes you think that you know how I saw him?" It feels like a boundary violation but, at this point, all I can think of is to let it all go.

That idea of yours seems both rational and emotional. Rational - she can’t know how you saw him (it’s her idea of what she thinks you thought). Emotional – you might feel that she’s trying to tell you she knows how you think, feel etc. “I know what you’re thinking” is a lie from anyone. They don’t. But if they say that, they’re trying to control you, influence your thoughts and make you doubt yourself. But this photograph and message from your grandmother, maybe she’s trying her best. Maybe she’s trying to relate to you in the only way she can. Maybe she is trying to give you something. Her intention may be good in her mind. Unfortunately she doesn’t know you well enough to really connect with you, and that’s sad. You don’t have to do anything. You can’t change her, all you have to decide upon is your response (your internal reaction) to what you have received. She doesn’t know how you decide to react.

I have no information on a funeral service. She is still alive as far as I know.

Do you want to go to the funeral? If so maybe you’ll need to ask someone to tell you the details. But you don’t have to go. Funerals are for the living, we attend them for the living, not the one who has died.

Good to hear from you Dawning. Please keep posting, this sounds like a difficult time for you. Best, P / S

[Anonymous]

I wanted to mention this too:

I got an ecard for xmas from my father. It said simply that it was snowing...alot where he was and he had not seen snow like that since one year before I was born. I did not reply.

An ecard hey? Big deal.   Sorry. I don’t like your father. If he can’t be bothered to send a real card with a stamp on, I wouldn’t reply either. And talking about the snow – telling you what is happening in his world right there and then – indicates that total lack of empathy or awareness that drives me nuts.

It’s very much to me that ‘out of sight out of mind’ thing. I exist to them only when they choose to think about me on their terms. When they don’t think about me, I don’t exist to them. Literally! I’m just an object that doesn’t have feelings, experiences or thoughts. I just sort of 'stop being' until I enter their radar again.

But that line about ‘before I was born’. It could be manipulative (I care about you, I remember when you were born) or, more likely I think, it could be cause and effect thinking: (I was thinking about when did it snow like this before and I remembered it was before you were born and I thought hey I’ll send you an ecard about the snow). Gosh.   So actually, sending the ecard,  it might have been about the snow and not about you?  How did I get there? Don’t know if any of that helps D, but I’ll slap it down anyhoos. Just thoughts as usual. P/S

[Anonymous]

Hi.  

If I want to be bothered with your woes I will be. True! If I don’t I won’t. I once asked a friend “why are you doing this for me?”. I realise now that’s a dumb question. She was doing it because she wanted to. And she was helping herself too. Very rarely is any interaction one-way. I get something out of talking to you. By writing this I get to clarify my own thoughts. So thank you!

This is how I feel.  So nice to hear and thank you too.  They key is honesty.  At the retreat, we had *dialogues* every Tuesday where a group of us would talk things out in an atmospere of equality with no one as *the teacher* and no followers/students.   We had a bit of moderation but not much.  These dialogues were so uplifting.  I feel like that on this board too.  That we are flowers unfolding by listening and responding to each other.  

But this photograph and message from your grandmother, maybe she’s trying her best. Maybe she’s trying to relate to you in the only way she can. Maybe she is trying to give you something. Her intention may be good in her mind. Unfortunately she doesn’t know you well enough to really connect with you, and that’s sad. You don’t have to do anything. You can’t change her, all you have to decide upon is your response (your internal reaction) to what you have received. She doesn’t know how you decide to react.

Thank you for this perspective.  In the letter to her, I wrote that I received the photographs and I appreciated them and that I will look after them...and I certainly will.  What I have are memories of being used, of being *the container* as Bunny put it for everyone else's sh*t.  They are memories yes...and I responded by eventually - leaving.  But you are right - she is trying to give me something, to relate to me.  And she may very well be on her deathbed now (almost one month after receiving the box from her).  I thank you, Guest, from the bottom of my heart, for this exchange.

[Dawning]

oops!  Me, above.

p.s.  An afterthought... it is not sh*t I got from her in that box as you so wisely pointed out.  It is her way of relating.  And she doesn't know my reaction.  I am new to this understanding of *reaction* but sharing reactions with people you trust and love (in our case, not family members) is quite a beautiful thing.  

[Portia]

me too! in disguise   got my poncho and big cowboy hat on, chewing on a cigar   and then I wake up ha ha too lazy to log-in, sorry D

PS.

It is her way of relating.

yes, it still might be motivated by all sorts of manipulative rubbish though. I don't know. She could have good intentions, she could have spiteful intentions. I don't know. Either is possible so I guess the best we can do is see both possibilities and decide which one we think is nearest reality. If we have to decide. We might just let it hang there in the ether, sort of 'I don't know why she sent this but do I need to know? I think I like it/hate it and will act accordingly'.

[Dawning]

Portia wrote:

If we have to decide. We might just let it hang there in the ether, sort of 'I don't know why she sent this but do I need to know?

Hmm...yes.  I can see my mind getting around this one like you stated above.  Kinda like the oberver is the observed.

What is also becoming clearer is that *the family* somehow was torn apart so long ago and that it was not my fault for being born.  My cousins and aunt went there yesterday for one day and the one who won't talk to my mother said to her (and my mother quotes) "thank you for taking such good care of grandma" and hugged her.  If they reunite, great.  But something tells me that he only said that as a parting farewell.  Like, when my grandmother dies, all relationships in the family will die too.  (Not that I ever felt a part of my family...I just feel duped that I believed I was *the problem* of the family for so long) and in the process hated myself and got into all manner of sadistic relatioonships.  Blah...blah.

Thank goodness for the generous souls on this board.  Thank you.

And, you're right, Portia, I am reaching out and looking for loving relationships elsewhere.  Just need to take it step by step.  I trip alot.

I feel sorrow now.  And, I've heard it said that "where there is sorrow, there can be no love."  But I *do* feel sorrow that the family was split.  

As for my father, I don't like him either.  And that's a good first step.   I don't want my father anymore nor do I like him or want to look for him in other men  but that's a different post.  

What I aim for now is to examine my mind as it is happening now to understand myself in relationship more.  And being here really helps.

[bunny]

Welcome back, Dawning! I'm sorry about your grandmother. In the past few years I've witnessed the demise and funerals of quite a few elderly relatives and in-laws. In my experience,

--- there are a relatives living far away who don't fly here to see the relatives before they die, nor the funerals, and that's okay. It wouldn't change anything if they did and I feel their concern from the distance which is sufficient.

---  I don't believe in deathbed miracles changing anyone. I haven't seen it happen yet.

--- We can't stop anyone from dying, all we can do is remember them fondly if we liked them. I certainly didn't like all of these relatives who died, in which case I can only say, "Goodbye."

--- I'm trying to create a positive relationship with my younger relatives so they will still like me when I'm an old crone.

bunny

[Dawning]

Thanks Portia and bunny.

My mother just sent me an email.  She said that if I wanted to add anything to my grandmother's obituary that I'd better "send it now."  But I just spoke to the nurse and she said that my grandmother is doing better but they'll know one way or the other by Friday if she will pull through.  I feel a little funny adding any comments to an obit. when the person is not yet deceased.  Is this a common thing to request (an obit comment before someone has died)?

[Anonymous]

MY mother has been writing her own obit for years...that's funny-but not. She must fear terribly that no one will have anything good to say. True, it will be challenging to focus on the flattering parts, but we would not assasinate her in an obit, certainly.

Which, in a roundabout way, brings me to the subject of Love & Boundaries.

I think often about the ways in which I love my mother and the ways in which I don't - cannot.

I love my mother in a distant sort of way, never too close. Experience taught me to keep enough distance to stay safe, both emotionally and, to a lesser degree, physically.

Ironically, we are both terribly disappointed that we are not close. For me, the disappointment does not outweigh the risks, and for her part, she cannot/will not see why we are not close.

Basically, we both mourn because our fantasy parent-child love does not exist.

All that said, it is better in some ways than it used to be.

What apparently caused her to at least practice some self-monitoring was very much like what you describe above - a threat, simply put.

After a lifetime of constant criticism (causing me to doubt my every move), I had a child of my own. As far as I, the pediatrician, my friend with the PhD in developmental psych, and everyone else could see, she was a very bright child, happy, curious, engaged, 95 th perfcentil weight and height, developmentally ahead of of peers...no harm/no foul, right? Pretty good job with a pretty good kid, right? Not in my mother's eyes...

"You hold her too much..."

"She doesn't get enough sleep."

"She's always's sick (H got a cold once or twice)."

"Are you sure she should eat that? Drink that?"

"She's underdressed/overdressed..."

"I'm worried because you don't do this, that and the other thing...and you do this that and the other thing...."

On and on and on...This would be funny in a movie, but it hurts and it sucks in life.

Finally, one day (this time she called to give me the number of some quack doctor to find out what was "wrong" with H - what a movie, indeed), I said:

"Listen. I'm tired of this. The evidence is right before your eyes.The kid is happy, healthy an FINE. I work hard at being a Mom. I know I do a good job and I don't care what you think. You have never said one single meaningfully complimentary thing to me in my life, and I'm sick to death of it. As a matter of fact, from now on, if even one criticism passes your lips, I'm hanging up. Period. If that means we don't ever speak again, so be it. I certainly will not miss this crap."

For the first time in memory, she was silenced. After a minute she said, "O.K.". We then changed the subject.

Now, I can't say she's never been critical again, nor can I say that haven't let any of it slide (I have, in favor of the general peace), but it is much less frequent now...and she's even tried being complimentary (truly, without a "but" or an "if" attached) a few times, if somewhat awkwardly.

It ain't perfect, but it is better, and I thank the Boundaries for that.

You did absolutely the right thing, but you know that already.

[Portia]

Hiya Dawning. She’s organising huh? “Send it now” what nonsense. “Send it now” – or else? Or else what?

You could challenge her – “why now? Grandmother’s not dead yet so you haven’t exactly got a deadline to meet have you?” But no. Maybe she just wants to organise everything now so that she doesn’t have to do it later, maybe when she’ll be emotional and unable to cope with obits and the like. That’s me trying to be kind to her.   Tricky.

But of course the better idea is to remain calm and say you don’t feel happy about doing that while she’s still alive. And what sort of obit is this anyway? For a newspaper – do you know? Take it easy and keep talking, P

[mum]

Dawning: you said a lot,  and so did others in reply that are all very thought provoking. I do believe, though, that you have touched on some very powerful things that indicate you are on the road to healing:
(sorry, haven't figured out that nice quote thing, bit of a Luddite, I am):
    You said (after much much much thinking) that you should just "let it go".  Exactly!!! Let go!  Attachment equals suffering.  If you are going to obsess and think think think about your suffering, make room to think about that statement.  YOU are not your problems. You are something wonderful, untouched by the pain of the world. Let go of the pain, why hold it? Drop it.  Like a suitcase full of shit you don't want. Focus instead on the wonderful person you truly are....and deserve to be (you have taken steps that show you know this, by choosing to accept or not accept certain treatment by others!)
And along those lines, you also said something about deciding you can't take care of everyone else so you will have to take care of yourself.  Exactly, again!!!!  
Truth is you can't ever make other people happy (it is an internal process) and the best you can do is learn to be happy yourself!  And, lo and behold, hey, that happiness is contagious, and your well being heals those around you (not instantly, mind you, because they also have a choice).
Bottom line, every single moment, every single day, your life is your choice! (this coming from a woman who used to view herself as "trapped" and if you want to talk legalities, you could very well say I am). But I am and can be what I want to be....regardless of past choices or circumstances.  
The universe is not trying to hurt us,  it is presenting us with lessons, all the time, that we create for ourselves.  Learn and grow and be happy, our only true purpose...and look at that, you are on the way!!!
It's a process, this life thing, this purpose thing...might as well have a good time.  If your intention is pure, and motivated by love, why shouldn't you have happiness?!

[Anonymous]

Is this a common thing to request (an obit comment before someone has died)?

Dawning,

A few weeks before my grandmother died (15 years ago), my mother, myself & my sister were visiting the province where she lived.  One of the "missions" my mother had in going was to, along with her sisters, pick out the burial dress of my grandmother.  

So, we were having a nice visit at the hotel where my grandmother was allowed a day pass from the hosp., and my mom pulls out these two dresses, shows my grandmother, and asks her which she prefers to be buried in!!!  My sis & I were absolutely mortified & thought this was so morbid, but my mother didn't seem to think anything of it.  To me, my grandmother looked very sad when she said the one she preferred but didn't comment much else on the scenario.

My point is that I guess some people do things in different ways...  But I don't think others ways should be forced on other people.  For example, if my mother had asked me to find out which dress my GM wanted to be buried in, I would have flat out refused.

I view it as similar in your case.  She is your grandmother whom it seems you love a lot, and you have the right to do as you feel comfortable.  If it feels weird to you to write any comments before (it would feel so weird to me, too), I wouldn't.    

I would not do anything that I did not feel right about when someone close to me that I love, was passing away.  

I also thought of something else regarding my mother.  It could have been that she was so distraught by the impending death of her mother that she had shut off her emotional part and was being very mechanical. I know how much she loved her mother. I don't know if it could be the same with your mother's request.  But it doesn't change anything.  I wouldn't get forced into doing something I didn't feel comfortable with.  

If she goes ahead & does it without you, you can always do your own personal one later if you desire.  But truly, Dawning, you already did the most beautiful thing in writing your grandmother that letter.  It was not a formality for "the world" to see, but a very personal letter, directly to her heart & spirit.  

It doesn't get much better & more meaningful than that.

BT

[BlueTopaz]

I'm puzzled by this board technically sometimes lol....  It says I am logged in yet posted my message as "guest" & not with my username.

I'll try to write it manually.  If it doesn't work then I'm just mentioning that the above message is mine (bluetopaz).

[Dawning]

BT, mum, Portia, bunny, guests...

I just got a call from my mother...my grandmother made the transition painlessly (she was on a morphine drip) early on the morning of the 23rd.

Thank you for the support.  The waiting and wondering was very difficult.

I want to post here again after a period of writing in my journal - mostly about my childhood that my grandmother was so much a part of.  

Thanks again for your contributions to this thread.  And I welcome more.  It helps to talk.  I'm just in a bit of a passive mood right now.

p.s.  I told my mother that I felt writing an obit for a person who was still alive was bizarre.  She accepted my opinion and didn't try and pick a fight.  But, now, I will most certainly write one.[/i]