Author Topic: Trust issues and therapists **triggers**  (Read 4670 times)

October

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« on: January 17, 2005, 08:07:52 PM »
I wanted to explain something here, but I need to first say this is about me and not about anyone else.  Just me trying to find where I belong, because this place became very dangerous for me, and I want to try to resolve that, if I can.  Nowhere is perfect, but this has been a good place for me to visit from time to time, and there are a lot of very supportive people here.  

I was triggered really badly several days ago, and left the site, thinking I could never return.  It took me until today, and I have read the whole of the thread concerned, to find out what others think, and whether I am really on my own in the way I see things.  I found a mix of opinions, as you would expect, some seeing things one way, some another.  But I was not alone.  

The main trigger for me was that the person concerned described some behaviours and then claimed to be a mental health professional.  Having read the thread I now find that was, to use parliamentary language, a 'terminological inexactitude'.  This helps me a great deal.  I said at the time that it was an issue of trust.  That comment was not noticed, but this is an important issue to me.

I have had three counsellors over the years, as well as three psychotherapists and three psychiatrists, all at different times.   Of these people, the first counsellor did me a lot of harm, which I have not begun to overcome.  from the start he played power games.  Later it got worse.  

He would never fix appointments in advance, but had me call him over and over until he found time in his diary for me.  If he had no time he told me to ring again the following week.  Once he had to leave a session early to take his cat to the vet.  The last session of all never happened.  He just never got round to it.  

He admitted more than once that he tried on purpose to make me cry; in fact the first time we talked, until he did that he thought he would not be able to help me.  He cancelled sessions over and over for three weeks, when he knew I was very unwell, with the intention of making me knock on his door in desperation, demanding to see him.  I did not do that.  I waited and waited until the session finally came, and then arrived politely, without complaining.  At that point he thought he could not help me.  But then, when he (eventually) saw me cry, and admit that I had suffered during that three weeks so much that I had had to leave work and increase the a/ds I was taking, he said that he then thought he could help me.  It took me four months to get back to work.

When I asked him what were the rules for counselling he said there were no rules.  He meant that he wanted to make them up as he went along.  And he did.  At one point he told me that I needed to be admitted to hospital, because of something I did.  I stood up to him on that one, and I think surprised him a lot.  I told him straight that I was not going.  When I spoke to my GP she agreed that it was not necessary.

He ultimately used me as his counsellor, telling me about his own childhood abuse in graphic detail, over several weeks when we never discussed me at all.  The reason was that a relation had recently been found to be abusing his (my counsellor's) children, and this brought back repressed memories of his own childhood abuse.  There is a lot more, but that gives the general picture.  It would not be right for me to say more about someone else's situation.

Eventually, he decided I had developed an unhealty fixation for him, and decided the remedy was to dump me onto someone else - a friend of mine, not a counsellor.  Meanwhile he told this person that I was in love with him, that I was mentally unstable and that I was headed for a breakdown.  He also said the same thing to two other people that I know of.  He used selective quotes from a letter I had sent him to prove his point.  

Fortunately for me, I had already given my friend a copy of the full letter, so he knew the context, and that it was completely harmless; challenging Ms behaviour but innocent of what he accused me of.  My friend told me that he did not believe that what M said was true, and that was what saved my sanity at that point, but it was a difficult time.  Very difficult.  My friend showed so much patience, so much understanding of what was happening to me.  He said it was the worst possible scenario for me, to have a therapist who was himself at such a vulnerable point and used me in this way.

If this happened today I would know that it is not appropriate behaviour, and I would not stick around.  But that was seven years ago, and I knew nothing.  I then had a very good counsellor who I was only able to see for 12 sessions.  Very good sessions for me; I don't want to be one sided.

Several years later, the second psychologist made me so ill that I was judged not fit to undergo further counselling for around six months after seeing him.  For 14 weeks he denied that I have ptsd, in spite of a confirmed diagnosis from the UK Medical Research Council.  He said he didn't know what was wrong.  In the final session he said that what I have is 'trauma related.'  He would not let me talk about trauma.  Sorry.  Enough about that one.  Very difficult.

All of this - and more - has left me very afraid of any kind of therapy.  Very.  The power balance leaves people unprotected, and they don't even know what they need to be protected from.   :(  

With ptsd, there is nowhere else for me to go than back to find someone who can help me within the mental health field.  I have read book after book, but I cannot do it on my own.  This has become a nightmare.  Fortunately at present I have a very good psychologist.  But I am still very wary.

To me personally, morality, ethical behaviour, whatever you want to call it, is not something we can pick and choose, saying I will be moral with 99% of the population, but not with the person who hurt me, because they don't deserve it.  Morality is about us, not them.  What makes us different from the Ns, is that we can empathise, and we can choose not to be the same.  There can be no human being on earth who is exempt from moral law, imo.

If others have a different viewpoint, that is up to them, and I can accept that.  As long as they are not therapists.  Sorry if that seems illogical.   :oops:   I can accept that therapists will have feet of clay, but, for preference, not clay all the way through.

So, that is part of my story.  And none of it about what caused the ptsd in the first place.  Lots about what has made it last so long, and be so resilient to treatment.  And about why ethics and morality matter.

O.

Anonymous

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2005, 09:41:06 PM »
To me personally, morality, ethical behaviour, whatever you want to call it, is not something we can pick and choose, saying I will be moral with 99% of the population, but not with the person who hurt me, because they don't deserve it. Morality is about us, not them.

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so sorry to hear that experience October.well i can be another that agrees with you there about what you wrote on morality.i am not talking about confused2 here which is the thread i think you are referring to but i believe it is true that some therapists have deeper issues and are more pathalogical than their clients.i an very glad it worked out so you have a good therapist now and i hope you will stay at this group where you are very welcome.

bunny

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2005, 09:56:32 PM »
October,

I'm horrified and saddened that you were exposed to not only one, but two sadistic therapists. That is outrageous and tragic. The first so-called therapist ("I make up the rules") sounds like a psychopath who shouldn't be allowed near a therapy client. I'm so sorry that you suffered from these monsters.

I see therapists as similar to physicians or attorneys. Some of them are well-qualified, excellent at their profession, while others are inadequate, incompetent, or worse. It's like choosing a surgeon to perform an operation on you. You want the best one you can get.

I'm glad you have a better therapist now and are getting the help you deserve.

bunny

Portia

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2005, 06:20:23 AM »
Hi October. Some thoughts, questions for you to do with as you want to. No reply necessary, just my alternative thoughts.

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claimed to be a mental health professional


I guess this term means different things in different countries? For example in certain countries this might be a different job to the one we might envisage. It might include using psychological methods to extract information from people detained for political purposes. I tend not to assume too much about people who post here. They might be living a fantasy life. They might believe they’re a mental health professional. People who post here might not be very well. It’s worth bearing that in mind when we talk to them. Me included!

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I said at the time that it was an issue of trust. That comment was not noticed, but this is an important issue to me.

Not noticed by whom? I noticed your comment. I read it about three times. I got the impression you had made a decision about the content of that thread and that you wouldn’t contribute any more. You didn’t seem to me to be asking for acknowledgment or help with that decision? You appeared to be stating your position, which was fair enough. That’s what I saw. But I noticed!

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It would not be right for me to say more about someone else's situation.

Why not? This therapist was dangerous! Totally off the wall. What do you owe him in terms of privacy? I don’t want to know more about him, I’m interested in why you think it would not be right? This isn’t a moral thing I think. Do you think it’s wrong to talk about other people? It might be if it’s ‘gossiping’, spreading rumours, but not if the intention is to have someone understand why someone else has hurt you.

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The power balance leaves people unprotected, and they don't even know what they need to be protected from
I agree. I was thinking about this the other day. How we could have two people involved, but then of course those in the profession could close ranks on the patients (like they do anyway sometimes, in psychiatric hospitals). Nothing is perfect. Mental health care in the UK leaves a lot to be desired. Care in the community? People wandering about on dual carriageways during the rush hour? Me calling the police to go and get them off the road – and we call this ‘care’? I get angry about the lack of care in our communities for people with mental health problems. It’s tough for them and it’s not caring. I would like to do something to help, but I fear I’m just too cynical and impatient.

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There can be no human being on earth who is exempt from moral law, imo.
Different people have different morals. Different countries have very different interpretations of morals. Like it’s okay to kill in war but not murder your neighbours back home. Murder is justified and rewarded in war. There is no one set of moral laws. People make morality, people are not perfect.

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If others have a different viewpoint, that is up to them, and I can accept that. As long as they are not therapists.
I’m not a therapist. But I could practice as a counsellor or new-age crystal/healing/etc therapist here in the UK. No qualifications required (yet). Anyone can set up a counselling shop today. Is that moral? That’s the law.

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So, that is part of my story. And none of it about what caused the ptsd in the first place.
Do you want to talk about what caused the ptsd?

Good to see you posting October. I hope you don’t continue to feel that this is a dangerous place. I’ve felt quite paranoid here in the past but that was me, not this place. I hope you can see it as neutral, rather than dangerous. I hope the above are thought-sparkers for you. Sometimes it helps to have an alternative viewpoint. That’s what I’m trying to do, show you what I see. Best, P

October

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2005, 10:59:31 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous


so sorry to hear that experience October.well i can be another that agrees with you there about what you wrote on morality. ... i an very glad it worked out so you have a good therapist now and i hope you will stay at this group where you are very welcome.



That was the thread that caused me to have a problem.  But I am trying to keep in focus that it is my problem, not anyone else's.

I am trying to find safety here.  Very difficult, but getting better.  Thanks for your support.

October

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2005, 11:04:56 AM »
Quote from: bunny
October,

I'm horrified and saddened that you were exposed to not only one, but two sadistic therapists. That is outrageous and tragic. The first so-called therapist ("I make up the rules") sounds like a psychopath who shouldn't be allowed near a therapy client. I'm so sorry that you suffered from these monsters.

I see therapists as similar to physicians or attorneys. Some of them are well-qualified, excellent at their profession, while others are inadequate, incompetent, or worse. It's like choosing a surgeon to perform an operation on you. You want the best one you can get.

I'm glad you have a better therapist now and are getting the help you deserve.

bunny



Thank you for your compassion, Bunny.

M was a Vicar as well as a counsellor, and at the point  he dumped me he was moving to another parish.  I wrote and told our Bishop what happened with him, and he told me that I had to learn to let go of M, and that women often have these kinds of problems when their vicars move away.  That is how I know that he was one of the people M told his version to.  The other was his wife.  There are probably others.

To help get through this, I wrote a poem about it.  Must try to find a copy and post it.  :  )

And yes, things are much better now.   :)

Thanks again.

October

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2005, 11:20:09 AM »
Quote from: Portia
Not noticed by whom? I noticed your comment. I read it about three times.  ...

I don’t want to know more about him, I’m interested in why you think it would not be right? This isn’t a moral thing I think.  ...
 
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So, that is part of my story. And none of it about what caused the ptsd in the first place.
Do you want to talk about what caused the ptsd?   ...

Good to see you posting October. I hope you don’t continue to feel that this is a dangerous place.



Thanks for your comments, Portia.  As ever, you force me to think more about what I am saying, which is always a good thing!!  

Firstly, sorry.  I tend to think that because I feel invisible and unnoticed that this is actually true, when of course it isn't.  It feels that way.  But thanks for noticing.

Secondly, although I was not Ms counsellor, I acted in that way towards him for several weeks, and therefore do not feel that anything he told me should be passed on to other people.  However, in the past I did hear from several people in the parish that he may have confided some information to.  Strangely we are all too moral to compare notes in detail, so we all know that we each know something, and then we change the subject.  M has better friends than he deserves.  

The ptsd was caused by childhood neglect, emotional abuse, and seeing physical abuse of my brother.  Followed by escape into marriage with an alcoholic (didn't recognise what that was), and the gradual disintegration of that marriage six years later after my daughter was born.  Then my husband left (I made him leave) and I fell ill with post traumatic stress syndrome within months.  

And at the stage where that was beginning, I met M and had 'counselling' from him.  The ptss was not diagnosed, and turned into ptsd, which was confirmed several years later.  My doctor was not interested in the idea that it might be ptsd, so I went to the MRC and took part in a medical research project, which was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do, but I got a diagnosis from it.

Etc etc.  Very long story.  

Thanks for listening.  Trying to settle for 'somewhat dangerous.'   :lol:

Anonymous

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2005, 11:41:40 AM »
Dearest October:  I am so glad you found the courage to come back.  It has been my experience after becoming a survivor of an N, that you doubt what is being presented to you albeit professionals or well meaning individuals....trying to help.  N's truly make you doubt between what is real and what is unreal.  So when presented with an "authority" figure who is supposed to "know" the validity of what their doing does not come into question.  I have learned to question the reality of what is going on in most circumstances. If you feel what is going on is not in your best interests, then it probably isn't in your best interests.  When involved with an N for long periods of time, parents or otherwise, the detortion of reality is so great , that we as survivors did not have the luxury of questioning.........we were helpless in the detortion.  Sort of like the significant others in your life telling you.......no it is night, when you know it is 12 noon, but unable to confront them with the reality of the bright sun. Patz

October

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2005, 12:55:12 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Dearest October:  I am so glad you found the courage to come back. When involved with an N for long periods of time, parents or otherwise, the detortion of reality is so great , that we as survivors did not have the luxury of questioning......... Patz


You are right.  Absolutely.  I have no way of trusting my own reality as yet.  Too often I have to filter it through a third party in order to achieve validation.  Sometimes I know that something is true (such as what time it is!!), but until I find someone to agree, it cannot be real.  A bit like being a fairy or Santa - it we believe it they are there, if we stop believing they disappear.  That happens to me if people stop believing in me.  

Very strange to feel it happening.  And it is mostly the case at my parents house.  I disappear bit by bit until I am a shadow sitting there, wondering what is real and what is not.

Thanks for your reply, Patz.

C

Portia

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2005, 01:10:15 PM »
wow October. Your last post just shone out as a perfect example of a full-on extravert experiencing loss of self. Extraverts need other people like you have described, or they feel themselves disappearing. They get their energy from being with other people. Your parents don’t give you this energy so being with them is a double-whammy – where you would normally get energy, you’re receiving negative stuff instead. Being with them is destroying you! Do you have friends who you do feel more alive with, who you enjoy being with? What you described is so spot-on to an extravert falling into annihilation of self, it’s breath-taking. I don’t know if this will help but I was so struck by your description, had to post back……P

Portia

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2005, 01:32:53 PM »
Hi again. I think I understand a little better. When you said about it being dangerous here, I can see a different meaning to that, given your description above. That ‘dangerous’ to you means something different to me (dangerous to me = makes me think in a weird way, gets my mind working overtime on what is wrong with me). I guess dangerous to you means that people out there aren’t to be trusted? You go external, I go internal?

And earlier when you said:

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Firstly, sorry. I tend to think that because I feel invisible and unnoticed that this is actually true, when of course it isn't. It feels that way. But thanks for noticing.

No sorry needed! Really. :D  I was only saying yes I noticed – but you couldn’t know that before I said so could you? So you don’t have to say sorry. I would guess you need to be noticed and there’s nothing wrong with that. I need to be left alone – a lot, an awful lot – and there’s nothing wrong with that (apart from everybody thinking I hate being with them). Just differences.

But yes, feeling invisible definitely doesn’t mean that you are invisible. I read that a really key point for extraverts to get to know/feel is exactly that - to trust their internal realities more, not rely so much on the external for validation of reality. If the outside world starts to crumble, you won’t. Your self is safe inside you even when there is nobody there to confirm that (introverts have to get out more apparently and be with people…).

I’ve got some text on this stuff somewhere I think if you’re interested in more. Take care! P

October

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2005, 01:35:22 PM »
Quote from: Portia
wow October. Your last post just shone out as a perfect example of a full-on extravert experiencing loss of self. Extraverts need other people like you have described, or they feel themselves disappearing. They get their energy from being with other people. Your parents don’t give you this energy so being with them is a double-whammy – where you would normally get energy, you’re receiving negative stuff instead. Being with them is destroying you! Do you have friends who you do feel more alive with, who you enjoy being with? What you described is so spot-on to an extravert falling into annihilation of self, it’s breath-taking. I don’t know if this will help but I was so struck by your description, had to post back……P



That is so interesting, Portia, because I am so far on the introvert side that I almost fall off the scale   :D , but that has been assessed since the ptsd, and since everything else.  Maybe I am extrovert after all.  Must investigate further.  Other measures I am close to the middle, but slightly one way or another.  But the I:E measure is really strongly I.   (INFP)

I do love people, and being with people, and I hate being alone, but at present I get too triggered by contact, and I get flashbacks even from a trip to the supermarket, so I have turned into a recluse.  If it were not for my daughter I would never leave the house.  Ever.  I think this is what is making the I result.

Thanks for the comment.   Must find more information!! xxxxxx

October

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2005, 01:40:58 PM »
Quote from: Portia
I guess dangerous to you means that people out there aren’t to be trusted? You go external, I go internal?



Yes, I am very externally focussed.  Except when I get triggered, when I am forced inward to try to process, and get stuck in a loop from a short circuit.  At that time everyone else goes shadowy and foggy.  And sometimes they cease to exist on the same parallel as me.  (Other way round really, but that is what it is like.)  I end up on another planet, staring wistfully back at Earth, but it is too dangerous to go there, and I have no spaceship.   :)

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I would guess you need to be noticed and there’s nothing wrong with that. I need to be left alone – a lot, an awful lot – and there’s nothing wrong with that (apart from everybody thinking I hate being with them). Just differences.


Yes, I think some part of me needs to be noticed.  But there is another part that says 'don't even think about it' because getting noticed equates to getting hurt.  I have to fight that one out a lot.

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I read that a really key point for extraverts to get to know/feel is exactly that - to trust their internal realities more, not rely so much on the external for validation of reality. If the outside world starts to crumble, you won’t. Your self is safe inside you even when there is nobody there to confirm that (introverts have to get out more apparently and be with people…).



I have yet to find the self inside.  There seems to be a black hole.   :D


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I’ve got some text on this stuff somewhere I think if you’re interested in more. Take care! P


That would be fun.  thanks P.

C

Portia

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2005, 01:43:27 PM »
Heyyyyy! High five! :D

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I do love people, and being with people, and I hate being alone


Nope, I can't see myself ever saying this October, honestly, whoa, no, give me a desert island and I would LOVE IT. Alone? No problema. Too much being with people and my energy levels drop to zilch. I have to recover from long phone calls (have silence).

I'm going to search through my archives for some stuff on I and Es. It helped me so much....to be allowed to be a hermit and like it, for example....might take me a while...probably have it tomorrow..P

October

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Trust issues and therapists **triggers**
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2005, 01:46:34 PM »
Quote from: Portia
Heyyyyy! High five! :D

Quote
I do love people, and being with people, and I hate being alone


Nope, I can't see myself ever saying this October, honestly, whoa, no, give me a desert island and I would LOVE IT. Alone? No problema. Too much being with people and my energy levels drop to zilch. I have to recover from long phone calls (have silence).

I'm going to search through my archives for some stuff on I and Es. It helped me so much....to be allowed to be a hermit and like it, for example....might take me a while...probably have it tomorrow..P



I am a hermit and I hate it.   :lol:

Thanks P.