The Betty Broderick Case

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone! I am new here. If I would tell my story that would be very long.

So I try to keep it short and even that is long: My mother is N and verbal abused me all my life. I have stopped contact since a year. My father has Ntraits, was a former co-dependent, but is more and more becoming an N since he retired and therefore has to be togehter with Nmom the whole day. I am on my way of moving to another country, I do live currently in Germany. Because I live in a flat of my father, I have to be still in contact with him. I would like to limited it to very very limited. After I came back to Germany after being studied in the US seven year ago, my mother really got mean on me. Very very abusive. I drove me so nuts. It is unbelievable what she said to me. I crashed dishes and windows.  I felt to angry, how anyone could do this to me on purpose and even had pleasure to do so. Then I worked on having that stopped. I have not known about Ns during this time. That is about six years ago. Since then I am planning my departure. Unfortunately, I became sick for some time and I had none else to support me than my father. Then I got pregnant, and I had to work a little slower on the departure. Now I am having a job in another country, saved some money and will leave the country soon with my 2 year old son. My bfriend already left and is searching for a bigger flat in the new country. For me to leave my Nparents was not that easy. And Germany is a very unhelpful country, so practial my bfriend and I had to do everything by our own. Mostly, everyone I told here from the problems, just said, oh yes, many have crazy parents. That's is. They do not look deeper. None helped. Not the goverment, in Germany they do not have daytime kindergarten for toddlers under 3  only private which is very expensive and rare. And for over 3 years it is mostly just in the morning. At least I managed to give my son in a private kindergarten, three times per week. So called friends were not much helpful either. None even offered once to take care of my son. Or girlfriends from school just wanted me to come during the day in their wonderful house when they were bored. My bfriend found a job in another city, rented a small room there and was only here every second weekend. Even the neighbours here are jealous and not nice. I am so very glad when I can leave this place here finally.

Lately, my father who is a pathological liar and who like typical N justifies his lies always, lied so much I lost it and screamed at him and hit him on the arm. It is true these N people want to make you act in this way that they then can say, see, I told you, you are a bad person. I recognized that I have to limited contact further as much as possible during I am still here. And I futher recognized that I have to stop waste value life time to get upset about him. I searched the internet, found this page and another webpage which someone posted here to copy with Ns.

Getting to the point, is anyone here familar with the Betty Broderick case? It is a true case, where a husband divorced his wife of twenty years married a new wife (twenty years younger). He became rich after his first wife helped him to get though law and medical school during the divorce it is said he cheated her with money and because he was the president of the bar and had a lot of contacts, the court held against his exwife. He also must have abused his first wife. In the end, the ex-wife could not take the abuse anymore and became very crazy, calling the phone, leaving mean messages and insults on the answering machine and then she went to her former house and shot her exhusband and his new wife death. They made a TV-Movie and there are at least three books outside about that case.  Just tape Betty Broderick into google and you will find info, if you interested. In the Betty Broderick Case, it is likely that the exhusband drove her so nuts with all his bad behaviour that she did not find the point where she could stop that anymore and in the end she killed him. It is even claimed, that she did not do it on purpose, she just went to the house and wanted to talk to them to stop their behaviour. I can imagine the scene like the was upset, they lied again into her face and then she lost it and shot them. Very scary, to loose it and to shot them. I think she must have felt very lonely and helpless. That is what I have felt sometimes too.

What I would like to discuss is the following:

1. Did anyone here got so angry on N's that they started to act violent? Where you scared of yourself? What did you do?

For me knowing how N's are, that has helped me enormous. Getting a goal to get out of the situtation. Limiting contact. Reading how to cope with Ns. Threating with attornies and cops is for my father a helper. Not to tell him anything of myself anymore, of my life, my friends, my wishes.I think, I read somewhere that if we wish to kill people or if we are too angry, we should remove ourselves from the scence. Not always that easy if you have to deal with them and you do not want to spent all your money on attorney fees. I think these Ns are want to make you angry on purpose, well in the case of my father he has to justify himselves with lieing and he always thinks that he is justified to lie. It is very angrymaking. Very hard to deal on a reasonable basis with these people because they are just unreasonable.

2. What do you think is the bottom line to get out of the circle of Ns?

Like in Betty's case the best would have been to get over it and start a life of her own anew. And to forget about the money cheating. Getting a better attorney. Not to get too much involved into her ExNhusband anymore.

I would be happy for many responses.

Samantha

[onlyrenting1]

Guest,

Today I got a call from my daughter's Jr. High, to come down to the nurses, because while in the Gym another girl hit my daughter in the chest and mouth and one tooth was loose.

The story I got was  durning a vollyball game my daughter made a remark about another girls play on the ball. The girl that hit her had heard the remark made last week and today decided to push it to the physical level. (there are other things that happen like other girls wanting to see a fight)

We are waiting for the Police now to come by so I can make a report to press charges.

I think when you see kids that use physical violence, it can start very early and only escalates as their standard way of resolving what ever it is.

Betty Brodrick,an Intresting note, I happen to know the brother of the boyfriend of the Oldest Daughter.

We worked together for 8 years and I remember him comming into work telling us all about how is brothers girlfriend's,  mother had killed her father. He was going to be a witness and is seen in the movie as the boyfriend in the Jeep.

I think the movie made it appear like the Mom, was not going to let her husband move on. This was so long ago I'm sure back then the understanding we have now was alot different.

I could believe now that the husband may have appeared as a nice guy and had all the N behaviors.

People that can get under your skin where you can't contol the need to be physical, you will either need to step back, walk away, or not be around them at all.
You may have been in a tough situation, found you had rage and one time not able to control it. That can happen. sometimes I feel like throwing a dish or two or slaming a door.

However Betty, who may have had other disorders, allowing herself to get Obsessed.
Maybe it's just hormones. at 13teen, at 50 maybe it's a chemical inbalance. It may be worth looking into something to keep yourself calm before you lose control.  

I don't know if any of this helps you. I just find myself dealing with a physical attack on my daughter for the first time and found the mention of the Bodricks on a personal note.

onlyrenting

[Anonymous]

You always need to take responsibility for your own behavior.  

If you indeed feel you are losing control to the point of harming someone then you need to remove yourself from the situation or seek professional help.

[Anonymous]

Only renting, thank you for your response. Interesting, that you have a kind of personal touch to that case.

I think the movie made it appear like the Mom, was not going to let her husband move on. This was so long ago I'm sure back then the understanding we have now was alot different. I could believe now that the husband may have appeared as a nice guy and had all the N behaviors

.

Yes, I agree. That is what I am thinking either. I saw the movie about 15 year or so ago, can that be? What I think is strange, why Betty did not do anything to stop that. Maybe she had none to help. Maybe hormones played a role, maybe. But I think there must have been. Hormones also often go out of control if being very stressed as a consequense.

People that can get under your skin where you can't contol the need to be physical, you will either need to step back, walk away, or not be around them at all. You may have been in a tough situation, found you had rage and one time not able to control it. That can happen. sometimes I feel like throwing a dish or two or slaming a door.

That is me too. But that I DO NOT DO IT. I just feel like it like you. I think it is very scary that you can not control it. Usually that happens only, if the person has tortured you a lot, like the the example with the dog, it gotten beaten that often that it suddenly bite. I think that is what happened with the girl, who hit your daughter. It was not the remark your daughter made, there were many remarks before and then, she just have gotten it and lost it and unfortunately, it was your daughter. I guess that girl who beat up your daughter needs desperately professional help. I am also very sorry for your daughter. The school should speak about that. Why did  these things?

Maybe, I do need either. At the moment, I have so many things to do, I just have no time for that. Meanwhile I am reading in some self help books. Usually, I do not loose it. The lies in my face, the continueing of denying what was so clear, the not finally taking responsiblity for the behaviour whereas instead blaming other like me that was just too much. I could not take it anymore.

I found also out that it happens because of the constant repeater. My father did it and did it and I finally lost it, because I was UNAWARE what that did to me. Now, I now that this lieing is too much for me, I know that these Npeople are doing it, I know why they are doing it and I know they can not do in any other way (which of course is now excuse). After reading so much about N, I know exactly what my father will say and if he really did something wrong it takes hours and days until he will admit it. My body, my brain just could not take it anymore. It was filled up like a glass with water and pour more water into the glass made the glass to let run the water out. That was happen with me. If nocticed that getting that angry on a person, one immediately has to remove yourself. You have to get that in your brain, you are very very angry on that person. The person cheated and lied to you. Do not see that person in person, if the person continues to deny it. Try to talk that over the phone and if they continue if you do not can take, you can at least, say, I have to close and end the conversation. Get into your mind that there is nothing that the person will do to excuse or apologize. Note that the person will still feels justifed to do so. And will do again in any case.

In the other case, if a person continues to stalk you or is blaming your for something you did not do and is raging on you, you have to remove yourself from that scene immediately. As long the person has rage and harming feelings against you, try to avoid that person. If not possible get an restaining order. You may can talk to person on the phone as soon as it rages, close the conversation. Do not answer emails or phone conversation. If that all is getting to much hire an attorney or go to the courts or the police.

It is very hard to be together with people where you know they can always cheat on you or lie to you and you still have to deal with them. It is very energy consuming and very tired making.

The only way, I found out is have as less contact as possible and finally try to find a way to remove yourself from that scene finally. There is no other way. Sometimes with a divorce or with parents it is  a hard bite of work to do. More easy with friends or even with husbands than with parents. I feel know that it is neccessary for my own health to remove myself from that scene as soon as possible. Which is not that easy with a kid and limited financial ressources. Samantha

[Anonymous]

I believe I saw a documentary on the Brodrick case on A & E some time  back.  I think her ex shacked up with someone younger and moved in with her, divorced Betty.  The up shot of it all is that Betty lost everything, the house, the money, the social postion.....everything.  She went over to the house to discuss something and found them both together in the house she had lived in for 20 some odd years.  Yeah, I do believe it would push me over the brink......given the right circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Dear guest, thanks for the response.

Yes that is, what I would like to discuss, when we have to get out of this before we later do regret or something dangerous happens?

I do believe now that N's try to push our buttons and one has to be very careful not to get into that trap. Because then, you are the one who lost it officially like Betty. You are the one, who destroyed things (like Betty did with her exhusband expensive sweaters or with the car) or calling insults (like she did on the answering machnine) or you are the one who hit a person (I think Betty did that either, started to hit her exhusband). And then the Ns even have proof that we are crazy and have personal flaws or we are the criminals. I do think that the Betty Broderick case is an extreme one, but I think it is a sad example what happens if we not help ourselves soon enough or seek for help, if we deal with N's. Things can get easily very wacky.

I think, if we have to continue to deal with N's the best is to get professional help like mediators, therapists or attorneys or maybe social work helpers. In my case I should have looked since years for professional help how to get on with my parents. Unfortunately, I did not and unfortunately, it is not that easy to find a good therapist to help you. Especially in my country. As already stated many are claiming they have crazy parents, but I know none who got professional help to get out that permanent quarrels and conflicts. All I know here in Germany are keeping on with the neverending story with their parents until they die. Very sad.

Samantha

[onlyrenting1]

HI Samatha,

Just an intresting note on the outcome of the physical attack on my 12yr old. They arrested the 13yr old girl, the fine is 300.00 with anger management and community service.  
The girl that attacked her, gave her little friend a note saying
"this was not over".
Today the principal said that girl, got a citation and the whole matter has now been set to the level where the girl would not be allowed to come back to the school.  
(I'm sure this 13teen yr old has had this happen more than once). The Principal, said I would have a chance to meet with the mom, the girl and talk about all of this.  

Physical violence to my surprize, at any age, is not being tolerated and they hit you in your wallet.

I understand your feeling of how an N can accuse you of bazar things

I think Betty did that either, started to hit her exhusband). And then the Ns even have proof that we are crazy and have personal flaws or we are the criminals.

This week I was going thru some old letters and I found one,
of 4 or 5, I have saved as proof to myself, of things my N-H has said to me.

This one was a comment that
He thinks I was going crazy and my reaction to him was concerning. This letter was from a long time ago, before I knew what an N was.  I'm sure I did have a reaction of disbelief, for the N can do unbelivable things.
We know how the N can make everything your fault with no blame to them. This is why I will not consider therapy with him, for myself yes.

I have reasons for saving things that are said or in writing just incase I need something to prove I'm not the crazy one.

I don't have to live with my N mother, but like being married to an N  needing a place because of money can make getting away difficult.

My thoughts are with you and yours.  Onlyrenting

[Anonymous]

I think it is good to get a personal talk with her and with her mother than you know what is going on. I would prepare for that talk and maybe bring an attorney with me. The attorney should maybe threaten the girl that if she ever is doing something your daughter again then she will have a trial and have to pay big bucks. Or speak with an attorney on that mesure. It is always good to get professional help. Please continue to tell how the story is going on. I wish you luck and I keep my fingers cross.

The little brat which beat up your daughter looks like a nasty naughty girl. It is good to do something ASAP until things get more ugly.

There is a very interesting discussion on the yahoo group Adult children of Nacrists right now, the tread is called how N's work. You might want to take a look at it.

So back on topic. Why we are doing things, or why we letting us threating so bad that we do bad things either? Okay, ours is a reaction.

I think that we did not removed ourselves soon enough from that scene. In the Betty Broderick Case, I think the marriage was not happy since some time ago. Okay, having four kids is tough, but they had money they could have hired some stuff.Being with bad people there are always signs, signs, and signs.I know since over 20 years that my parents are rotten. I should have make the break long time ago. But I always think that today, so much easier. We have the internet to get all the information, we need. There are more and more people recognizeing about abuse. We have more groups like this on the internet.

I a little disappointed that not more members or guest got involved in that topic. So the question again, when did the N succeed and you made something do or react in a way you usually do not ? That you kind of lost it.

I think either that, what I need to know and what I think comes too short often, is the subject that after WE KNOW these people are N's, after we know we have to remove ourselves from then it is not always that easy. being with Nparents or with an Nhusband can be difficult to cope and one can not run out the next day. Things need careful planning. Somebody knows  a book about that?

Samantha

[Anonymous]

Hello Samantha,

Sorry I don't know about such a book.    Just a few thoughts though.

Since you are sort of stuck, living with your father, who you have told us lies pathologically etc, you will have to find a way to NOT LET HIM ANGER YOU, in order to avoid doing something you will regret, right?

The trick is NOT TO LET HIM ANGER YOU.  Sounds easy?  Ofcourse not but it is very important.  What if you were to picture your father with a clown face and a hear a real high squeaky voice whenever he opens his mouth?
Or what if you just ignor what he says, as if there is something wrong with his speakers or your earphones?  What if you recite your favorite poem or a song or something you like, in your mind, silently, whenever your father starts up?

The bottom line is you don't HAVE to let him push your buttons.  You can decide to put up an invisible wall that will not allow his foolishness in.
What do you think?

I have had to deal with a similar circumstance and found myself feeling the same as some of what you describe.  I chose to act.  I chose to act for my own benefit and so that I would be happy about the way I acted.
First, I made the decision about how I was going to act.  What if you make a plan to help yourself tolerate, ignor, etc your father's behaviour?  Also, is your son watching?  If so, what is he learning?

Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

Hello Guest,

thanks for your response.

Since you are sort of stuck, living with your father, who you have told us lies pathologically etc, you will have to find a way to NOT LET HIM ANGER YOU, in order to avoid doing something you will regret, right?

Yes, that is the trick. Step by Step, I am dealing better with this situation. It is not easy and mostly I am angry on myself. Why the hell did I not much earlier have chosen to leave this situation? Then I am getting angry on this contury where are no loan für school and university tutions from schools or banks, where they do not do anything for you. Then I am getting angry on myself, why the hell I did not leave the country year before and even worse when I left some years ago, why did I make the mistake of coming back? Now I know. I would never go back again. Then why the hell all the f..... people told me yeaj, these are your parents, we have crazy parents too, that is the way it is, you can not do anything against it. Of course I can not change my parent and of course I can not get others like getting a new friend or husband, but I could have remove myself long long ago from that situation here, when I did not had a kid and things were a little more easier and I was younger. That makes me angry too. So my anger is not anymore on him, because he will never see what it is, he will never see his flaws and his denial. Will never admit it. The anger is on me and the anger is on the goverment and the anger is on all the people who had seen but chosen to keep up their mouth. That is the anger. That did not made my situation easier.

That is why I can understand Betty in some way: People saw, but did not help. The court was influenced by Dan. Then she got so angry that she lost it on the person who originated all her pain. Her exhusband.

But it was not the Exhusband, alone. It was society and the system which made is possible. People who of course have chosen to stay in touch with the ex because he was the one with the influence. More sozial help even if you have money. A good friend who is giving you a good advice.If that is missing than you are stuck.

The trick is NOT TO LET HIM ANGER YOU. Sounds easy? Ofcourse not but it is very important. What if you were to picture your father with a clown face and a hear a real high squeaky voice whenever he opens his mouth?

That would not do it.

Or what if you just ignor what he says, as if there is something wrong with his speakers or your earphones? What if you recite your favorite poem or a song or something you like, in your mind, silently, whenever your father starts up?

That is what I do a lot.

The bottom line is you don't HAVE to let him push your buttons. You can decide to put up an invisible wall that will not allow his foolishness in.
What do you think?

Yes that is what it is. You have to do it. Thank you for pointing it out.

I have had to deal with a similar circumstance and found myself feeling the same as some of what you describe. I chose to act. I chose to act for my own benefit and so that I would be happy about the way I acted.
First, I made the decision about how I was going to act. What if you make a plan to help yourself tolerate, ignor, etc your father's behaviour? Also, is your son watching? If so, what is he learning?

I will make a plan, I already ordered some books and I agree sometimes my son has watched and that is not good. It is time to leave here for good, but not that easy if you start out again. Thank again, Samantha

[Anonymous]

Hello again Samantha:

You're really letting it out!  That's a good thing.  And it isn't hurting anybody either.  Another good thing.  That's what Betty needed to do, instead of what she chose to do.

Personally, I think we are all capable of rage and other unacceptable behaviours.  We don't like to think of ourselves as being capable of such things but let's face it, people can snap, given the correct circumstances.  None of us knows until we face such a situation.  I think that is what you are trying to say, right?  You understand what made Betty snap?

For me, I want to do whatever it takes to prevent me from ever doing what Betty did because I really believe that what she did was wrong.  That's my opinion.  It is wrong to exact revenge, it is wrong to be violent, it is wrong to hurt and it costs us the most, in the end.

I know that feeling that life is just so unfair and I know what it's like feeling frustrated and angry with myself for some of the choices I've made.  I also have experienced the same kind of anger about other people who could have helped and who didn't.  I know the line that can come into sight when someone pushes me and pushes me and I feel soooooo angry that I want to crush the pusher.  I also know that that is the time I need to do something else to release my anger because I do not want to cross that line.

Maybe we just have to really feel it and express it to get rid of it?   For me, excercise, writing, music, talking with others, distracting myself with say..hobbies... posting here helps.  Mostly, it's being aware that it's time to release that feeling, if it's anger or something else that's building up, is the thing I've learned to try hard to be aware of, over the years.  I feel a lot better when I do that.

Nobody said life is fair.  It would be nice if it was, but it isn't and it is unrealistic to expect it to be fair.  What helps me most is to count my blessings.  If I try really hard to remember the good things that I do have in my life, and focus on those and on improving the things that I dont' like, it doesn't seem as hopeless as it does when I only notice what's wrong and hard and not right and upsetting.

So maybe you need to forgive yourself?  You're not perfect are you?  Are you supposed to do everything right?  Are you the only person on earth who has made poor choices sometimes and lived to regret them?  I know you're not because I've made some too and I'm still here.

I think it's good that you are thinking of a plan.  It won't be easy but it will be worth it to move out and onward.  Think of your son.  Think of what you want to teach him.  Focus on doing your best for him and let your father's words fade into oblivion, away from your world and your plan.  You will make your life better, Samantha, just keep trying.

Big Hug for you.

[Anonymous]

Dear guest,

Thanks again for your response and your support. I feel this thread is important maybe for others to. I found a good information on www.spaces.msm.com/members/narcissist and on the Sam Vaskin pages how to cope with Ns.  I printed a lot of it. Actually he has very good ideas, how to cope with abusers and narcissits.

Something Betty should definitely had!!! When I feel angry again about my abuser father I call a friend or I take a look at all the many webpages from Vaskin and I get ideas how to cope with my father. That gives me actually the feeling that I can do something and not have to let me abuse any longer. I also take from time to time an empty water bottle and just beat it against a wall or on the table. That helps to get rid of some aggression.
 

That's what Betty needed to do, instead of what she chose to do.

Yes, of course. Unfortunately, there was no internet maybe she would have found more easily some books, or self-help groups like this or these wonderful webpages like to cope with these kind of people. That does help, at least we do not feel alone anymore.

Personally, I think we are all capable of rage and other unacceptable behaviours. We don't like to think of ourselves as being capable of such things but let's face it, people can snap, given the correct circumstances. None of us knows until we face such a situation.

Yes, that is so true. That is why I made this tread. I think it is very important that we all know that. We do not want to face that, but exactly as you said, given the correct circumstances, well we do not know what we all gonna do.

I think that is what you are trying to say, right? You understand what made Betty snap?

Yes, I think that this is very understandable. Of course she was guilty, but I think her sentence is much too long. She might had the wrong attorneys. If I would be here lawyer and by the way, I studied law, I would have focus more on the matter how abused she was and in what kind of mental state she got. Pointing out how people would feel when they get abused like that. That would have been made an impression on the jury. Unfortunately, I do not know what her lawyers did. I have ordered two books about the case.

For me, I want to do whatever it takes to prevent me from ever doing what Betty did because I really believe that what she did was wrong. That's my opinion. It is wrong to exact revenge, it is wrong to be violent, it is wrong to hurt and it costs us the most, in the end.

The thing is we have laws which do not allow to kill or even injure other people. Only if there is a justification. But that has to be proved. And there is no criminal law for abusers and N's. Which I think is bad. In Germany we do not even have a criminal law for stalking. They know what it is, but that lame goverment did nothing to get a law for that. To often untit someone is getting hurt nothing is done. I think there should been laws against abuse. More detailed and especially for children. There should be more done for children anyhow. The goverments can spent money for every shit, but I think they should spent more for children. I like the attitude of goverments like France, Belgian and the Skandinavian countries. They do so much for children.

Moreover, I think it is stupid to be in prison and especially for such a long time. I do not can really say, it was wrong what she did and I think that she was in such a state that she did not really know what she did. She definitive needed pyschological help at that point of her life.

I like revenge. But a different kind of revenge. Successful revenage. Like that Betty would have studied law by herself, got successful much more successful than her husband. Made a group for women like her. Get a lot of support of her community. Maybe the young new wife of her ex would have cheated on him later. Maybe Betty would have found another nice man. That is a kind of revenage I like. I do not like to kill people. Even when I strongly believe that for many N's there is no place on this planet, just to blow them away is too soft for all the awful behaviour they did to other people. Let them suffer and not only 5 minutes die. That just sounds to simply.

Or for example I like the idea, when I later make a lot of money as a lawyer to buy the house next to my parents and give it to a group for single women with kids who left alone. They can all live for free in that house until the kid is two or three years old. By them they should have found a flat by themselves. Boy that would make a noise, where my father just loves to have his peace. It would drive him nuts. But well, the community would be happy, because they would not have to pay rental money for these ladies and the ladies would be happy that they found a place to live. Can you imagine living next to a house all with babies whom are screaming the whole day and night? Happy retirement. That is what I call a revenge. Doing something good and giving the N a bad time. That is something Betty should have done. I read in one book that she received 18.000 Dollar support money per month. From that money she easily could have gone to law school or to college. Okay, it would have taken some time, I do not know if she had finished college. But she could focus meanwhile on other things and her kid could have been proud of her.

I also have experienced the same kind of anger about other people who could have helped and who didn't. I know the line that can come into sight when someone pushes me and pushes me and I feel soooooo angry that I want to crush the pusher. I also know that that is the time I need to do something else to release my anger because I do not want to cross that line.

That is what it is.

Mostly, it's being aware that it's time to release that feeling, if it's anger or something else that's building up, is the thing I've learned to try hard to be aware of, over the years. I feel a lot better when I do that.

Yes, I agree. We just have to do that. We have to be aware.

So maybe you need to forgive yourself? You're not perfect are you? Are you supposed to do everything right? Are you the only person on earth who has made poor choices sometimes and lived to regret them? I know you're not because I've made some too and I'm still here

.

When you wrote that, I thought you hit a point. Yes, that it is. Living with parents who always saying that I am doing wrong and wrong  and never ever said in my life that they are proud of me or that I did right, that made me that way. Yes, I have to forgive myself for making the wrong decsions. I am human, I am making mistakes and I am allowed to make mistakes. Yes, that is what it is. Boy, every day I say, I will be so relieved if I finally have that pig of my father out of my life. He is none, I would voluntary choose to spent time with.

Samantha, just keep trying. Big Hug for you.

Yes that is something I will do. I think I am improving. Now that I now since three months about the N and I found these groups here, yes I think I am improving. To concretrate more on solution to get out of that here, is more important than to be sorry for myself. A big hug for you too. Samantha

[Anonymous]

Hi again Samantha,

The link doesn't work (that's ok because I'm not sure how many Sam fans you'll find here??  I don't think he has a real following on this board.)  I don't really know much about him except that he is a self-proclaimed N, which makes me want to run in the other direction.  However, maybe he does have good ideas about how to deal with N's, being one himself, and seeing things from his own point of view.

You were describing what you do when you feel angry, in order to cope.  I haven't heard of the plastic bottle thing but that sounds like a good one.  I went out recently and bought a set of small bongo drums for fun and frustration relief.  Lot's of times I'm pounding away, just for fun, but I gotta tell ya when frustration hits me, those bongos are great!  Worth every penny.

That's what Betty needed to do, instead of what she chose to do

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Yes, of course. Unfortunately, there was no internet maybe she would have found more easily some books, or self-help groups like this or these wonderful webpages like to cope with these kind of people. That does help, at least we do not feel alone anymore.

I think Betty definately needed to do something.  There must have been some source to help her but she would have had to have been in a sane state of mind in order to decide to find it.  Where ever that sane state ends and the lack of it begins, is the key, imo, to preventing horrendous crime.  To imagine what it must be like to-- not-- be able to recognize that we are approaching such a dangerous point --is a scary thought, isn't it?
 

Quote:
Personally, I think we are all capable of rage and other unacceptable behaviours. We don't like to think of ourselves as being capable of such things but let's face it, people can snap, given the correct circumstances. None of us knows until we face such a situation.  


Yes, that is so true. That is why I made this tread. I think it is very important that we all know that. We do not want to face that, but exactly as you said, given the correct circumstances, well we do not know what we all gonna do.

The best we can do is set ourselves up with good support systems, learn positive ways to cope with difficulties, and  realize that we have the above potential-- so that we might seek help if things ever get to such a point, maybe?  Before the big snap.

I will be interested to hear your opinion after you read the books you ordered.  I also wonder what her lawyers did etc and as you say, it is an interesting case.  So are you a lawyer, then?  I am not but I have always been interested in law.  I had a fantastic law teacher in high school who really got me hooked on the subject.  I love to watch the law shows on TV.

It sounds like there are differences in the laws in your country and mine, that yours is a bit behind (eg. no stalking law ...yet.  maybe there will be one in the future?? But as you say...it seems they wait until someone gets hurt before passing these laws).   Hey maybe you will move to one of the countries that you say you like their laws!  Maybe some day!!

Moreover, I think it is stupid to be in prison and especially for such a long time.

I agree.  I think many who commit such crimes should be receiving treatment instead of just punishment.  For the family of murder victims, that may not sound fair but to actually prevent more crime, I think it might be the answer.  Who knows?  Seems to me what is being done isn't working real well.

As you say, had Betty gone ahead and become more successful than her husband etc, well, that would have been a kind of sweet revenge.  To do so, just to spite him though, might have made her into a rather bitter person, but if she did so because she really liked her profession and was just enjoying her life to the fullest, yes, that kind of revenge I like too.  I would never have called it revenge before though.  I have just referred to that as moving on, getting on with life, etc.  That is the kind of revenge I guess would be good for you too, Samantha.  In regards to your father, move on, find happiness in your own life, enjoy living and leave him to his own choices.  What do you think?

Buying the house next to your parents (in your revenge dream) and filling it with screaming children???  Well, that does sound a bit bitter and I don't know if that would be good for you.  Besides, think of the poor little kids and their moms having to live next door to such a nasty neighbour who would be doing whatever he could to make their lives miserable (so they would move away).  I say...dream about all those successes and buying the house in a beautiful scenic spot, where the children can really enjoy their surroundings and the mothers will feel comfortable and safe.  That, to me, would be the ultimate gift to them and it would give you something sooooo priceless in your heart, wouldn't it?

So maybe you need to forgive yourself? You're not perfect are you? Are you supposed to do everything right? Are you the only person on earth who has made poor choices sometimes and lived to regret them? I know you're not because I've made some too and I'm still here
.

When you wrote that, I thought you hit a point. Yes, that it is. Living with parents who always saying that I am doing wrong and wrong and never ever said in my life that they are proud of me or that I did right, that made me that way. Yes, I have to forgive myself for making the wrong decsions. I am human, I am making mistakes and I am allowed to make mistakes. Yes, that is what it is.

I'm glad to hear you say this.  You don't seem like such a wrong, bad person to me.  You're doing the right thing by seeking support here and by speaking about what's on your mind.  They may never be proud of you but you can decide to be proud of yourself.  Not soo proud to boast but proud enough to recognize that you do a lot of things right too.  This is good for your son to see, a mom who can make mistakes and learn from them.  Also, a mom who doesn't stay angry but who does something to improve the situation.  A mom who moves ahead, not backward.

yes I think I am improving. To concretrate more on solution to get out of that here, is more important than to be sorry for myself.

See?  You are doing it!!!  That is exactly what will do the most good for you and your son, right?  Working towards that goal and doing good things for yourself and your son until you can get there!  You will get there, too, I just know it!

Thanks for the hug.  I appreciate it very much.

So what is the first step in your plan?  Have you decided yet?  First you have to..........what?

[Anonymous]

Hello Guests and Sam:  Sam I am so glad you are posting here.  I remember well when I first experienced the devastation of an N how I read and reread some of Sam V's stuff, and it was helpful.  It also helped to post to others to validate my feelings of rage, and the sense of how unreal it was.  It is what I call "The Great Awakening".  When you finally begin to realize you are not crazy, you aren't the only one, that there is information and others to sound off with.  

Betty, and I really feel sorry for her, did not seek out the help she needed to stay in control and the rage of it all over took her.  She was married to a narc and it did destroy her.....totally.

As regards Sam V, I quickly out grew him.  You only need to look at the number of sites he has on in internet to get a quick idea that he is indeed the fount of all knowledge, omnipresent, omniscent.  He sits in the vast wasteland of an admitted narc with only a distanst horizon as company. Patz  (that is why I post here)

[Anonymous]

Hi Sam, Patz, everyone,

Betty, and I really feel sorry for her, did not seek out the help she needed to stay in control and the rage of it all over took her. She was married to a narc and it did destroy her.....totally.

I like the way you put this Patz and I totally agree.  So maybe the trick, for those who must reside with people who behave in N ways, is to....seek out the help needed to stay in control and to not let it destroy us?

The stay in control part.....to me means to stay in control of our OWN behaviour.  To do whatever is necessary to prevent us from behaving like an N.  To do what it takes to feel better and not let the rage build to the point of destruction, where that is alllllll we feel.  To release our anger and other negative feelings in ways that will not hurt others and possibly even in ways that will be of benefit to us (such as excercise...which improves our health while helping us release our feelings, or by some art form...which is another way of releasing feelings, while creating something of value and beauty, etc).

Is that what you meant Patz, in regard to staying in control?

GFN