Author Topic: Narcissism  (Read 3376 times)

Anonymous

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Narcissism
« on: January 12, 2005, 03:45:58 PM »
While I respect the uniqueness of each person's experience here, I do want to say that not all sufferers of NPD are forever unrepentant or hopeless. As Dr. Grossman's articles suggest, narcissism is a compensatory mechanism with which some  people attempt to cope with the injury of not having ever been adequately heard or recognized, and often having been at the receiving end of other abuses and neglect.

While it is true that Narcissism can be incredibly difficult to penetrate, it is not impossible, and there are many people who suffer to some degree or another from the disorder who not only acknowledge the disorder but also actively seek healing for self and reparations, where welcome, for others who have been touched and/or harmed by their acting out behaviors.

One such individual is my husband. One such individual is not, on the other hand, my mother.

I won't go into the long, gory details of my experience with my husband's protracted period of emotional terrorism and abandonment (if you read through a handful of others' posts here you can cobble together my experience nicely), or my mother's ongoing issues, but I do want to point out that, through dedicated efforts in therapy (individual and joint), and conscious processes, my husband has been sucessfully peeling back the layers of the onion for several years now.

Not only has he sought to repair our marriage and earn my esteem anew, but he has also set about addressing, with compassion and humanity, his relationships with his parents and siblings. As Dr. Grossman writes, voicelessness is typically multigenerational - and it is rooted in the exact same place as narcissim. I will not tell you that he is perfect, or that I am perfect, or that life is perfect, but the changes are real, sustained, and hard-earned - and both of us have learned a great deal. I do love him, and although I think his love is sometimes a clumsy, half-formed thing, I do think it real and recognize that it is when he is uncertain or feeling the self-loathing that his love is a bit less than perfect - as it is for us all.

In short, I think it is important to refrain from de-humanizing those with NPD - including the use of the term "N" (NPDer is a nice alternative). Otherwise, we are guilty of inflicting some of the same slights and injuries we complain about, which can do nothing for our personal strength and pursuit of peace within.

Additionally, it should not be overlooked that the self-described narcissist and "expert", Sam Vaknin, has no recognized degrees or education, is not a licensed therapist, and is just what he says he is - an unrepentant narcissist. Thus, his words should be read very critically and taken with some large grains of salt. There may be some basis of truth in his arguments - all the best manipulators use the truth to support their distortions - but he exaggerates (a definite NPD trait), engages in rigid black and white thinking (another trait), and most of all, DE-HUMANIZES and MARGINALIZES OTHERS (the big one) - in this case, anyone who has or may have NPD (self-loathing trait), and more importantly, if you really read between the lines, anyone who has ever been unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of NPD acting out. That means YOU and ME, and is an insult. Be careful whom you follow.

I do not suggest that anyone give an abuser a second chance, or welcome with open arms any further abuse or marginalization, or betray one's own welfare for the sake of "forgiveness" - that is something else altogether, and in any event, may never be realistic in some cases. Self-preservation and -protection should always come first.

However, these "Ns" are people who have sustained their own injuries at the hands of others, long before we came into the picture. It is because of those injuries that we, in turn,  are victimized, to whatever degree, and if we participate in de-humanization as a means of processing our rage and hurt, we become unintentional collaborators and increase our own likelihood of later injuring others who are innocent. Like our kids, for instance, or future romantic prospects, who might be subjected to unrealistic scrutiny and mistrust, and ultimately pushed away, rendered voiceless by the sheer decibels of our outrage and the, dare I say it, narcissism, that is quite naturally a response to pain. Who can think about much else when they suffer from third-degree burns?

It is in the time of excruciating pain that we must be most diligent to stretch and move about, and keep the scar tissue from making us permanently inflexible. Hurts like hell, but necessary. Black and white thinking resulting from interpersonal injury is no different, if we don't work through the pain to retain our openess and flexibility, we'll be seeing "Ns" under every rock and behind every tree.

But we don't have to.

Thanks for listening.

serena

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Narcissism
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2005, 04:04:52 PM »
This is a wonderful post and your analogy to 'peeling an onion' is really well-made.

For your husband to recognise that he had issues with NPD is amazing and akin to an alcoholic recognising they had a drink problem.

I don't think people with NPD
choose to be that way - they just are.  It's difficult to ascertain (as everything is) whether it's nature or nurture that makes them so, and to a large extent I pity them.  They miss out on so much!!!  I mean kindness, tenderness, empathy for others, pain at seperation, being with good friends / missing good friends - all the 'normal' human interactions we all enjoy.  I'm not likening it to Autism but there is a certain parallel.

I've never had a partner / husband with NPD.  I am the victim of an NPD mother who treated me with loathing literally from the moment I was born and continues to do so, into her old age.

To the outside world she is funny, charming, vivacious, gregarious and wonderful - AS LONG AS YOU PLAY HER GAME.  If you don't, she is cruel, cutting, a liar, unkind and can practice her 'silence' game for as long as seven weeks.  Imagine that as a six year old?  She is the arch manipulator in terms of having four daughters and playing each off against the other - thankfully, we all know this now but it still hurts (LOTS!!).

We have never abused her, cast aspersions, blamed her for ANYTHING - although we all have more than good need to.  Even now, we rush to her side, cater to every whim, worry about her, pander to her, SUPPLY HER.

Myself and my siblings are / were psychological disasters until some of us sought help.

I will forever be grateful to the man who was my therapist for nine years who showed me the person I deserved to be.  I have many 'wobbles' but I am OK!!

I sincerely wish you and your partner well and it's refreshing to hear a tale from someone who has survived a N partner and has reclaimed a loving, empathetic relationship with him.  I wish him well also...

Kindest

Anonymous

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Narcissism
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2005, 11:19:32 PM »
I agree that narcissism exists on a "sliding scale" and some people with N tendencies act out far more than others. Some people with N tendencies also seek professional help, and they can improve their behavior.

I think of narcissistic people as "crazy" rather than inhuman. To me they seem extremely nutty in their responses to things. So I'm more likely to refer to them as fruitcakes than as demons.

With that said, sometimes it helps in the detaching process to perceive them as demonic for a while. For me it would be a short-term thing.

bunny

Cadbury

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Narcissism
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2005, 04:32:44 AM »
I do appreciate that NPD is not deliberate and can be attributed to a perons' past abuse etc. However, I think that the term N is used simply as it is quicker to type! Plus, if you have suffered at the hands of a deeply unrepentant N partner, one who can even sit and read all the description and think truly and honestly that NOT ONE of the items describes them, then you do tend to have a recovery period where thinking of them in terms of an acronym is the least painful and most manageable way.

Your story gives me hope that there are some sufferers who can recognise this in themselves and seek help, but the vast majority don't. In the case of my ex, he even tries to turn every problem round to being a problem I have that no one else in the world would have. He quite seriously said to me the other day that he was the nicest person he had ever met and he couldn't understand why I didn't want to be with him.

I don't think people on this board are doing anything other than trying to cope with the abuse they have suffered. It may seem that they are doing damage by using the term N, but I think half is needing to distance themselves from their relationships and the other half is speed of typing - especially if you are responding to several posts at a time etc.

bkkabri

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Narcissism
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2005, 08:18:03 AM »
I have read your post and it hurts to know that people can be hurtful to others.  For me, I beleive I am a codependant raised by a family who was unloving and uncaring of my needs as a child. I want to start my own family with loving parents and respect to each other.  I guess the problem I seek out in my life is why do I give my heart to this woman who claims to want it and then just push me away.  I have so many quesitons that I wish I could understand, and how after 2 years I could make a demand to treat me and our relationship better.  I was fighting to save us, and it blows up in my face.   She just cut me off with such malice that I dont even know who she is.  I miss the woman I met and believed her to be.  I wish she was here with me because all I wanted to do was support each other and be happy.  I wish I knew why she kept pushing to cause problems.  I dont know how I brought up all her insecurities.  The one statement that haunts me still is that she told me that she doesnt typically date guys like me because I was the only one who made her feel comfortable to let her hair down.  I wish I knew what that meant.  I really miss the fascade.  It really hurts to know that everything we did together really meant nothing to her.  Sorry, I am having a moment.

Portia

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Narcissism
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2005, 08:24:37 AM »
Brian, I've got used to seeing you now :D  It's okay, have a 'moment' (that made me smile - why? - because of the awareness of yourself there). The more you can have moments and recognise them as such - moments - the healthier your thinking will get. Yes I think so. Progress!  :D

How do you feel about yourself today? Good? Bad? On a scale from 1 to 100 where 100 is good? Do you feel you're okay, a regular human being just like the rest of us?

bkkabri

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Narcissism
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2005, 01:24:38 PM »
I know I am normal.  I just have a problem with somebody thinking so low about my abilities as a person when they claimed to love and care about me.  If this was a stranger, I could care less.  A person attacking me was somebody who is telling me I dont make enough money, and that I dont believe in marriage.  To tell me to get over my dad dying was a real hit because this is coming from a medical professional who I felt could understand my reluctance to talk in great detail about diseases.  I just hate how she kept taking everything I said and made it completely different than what I said.  I would hate me too if I said those things.  I just wish the girl I met was still there.  I dont know how I could compete with all these insecurities about other women's breast on television.  Its so stupid that I have to beleive it was all some crazy joke.  I just want to find peace in my head to know I am not crazy.  I cant beleive telling somebody they look nice is taken as a bad thing.  I just wish I had the same ability as the Indian doctor had to make us happy again.  I dont know the attraction, but she said talking about medicine and disease at night is important to her and she doesnt want to tip toe around my feelings because of my dad.  I never said that, I said to tone it down into plain english becasue I am not a freaking doctor.  Sorry, venting again

Anonymous

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Narcissism
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2005, 01:50:28 PM »
Thank you for your kind acknowledgements of my post.

Yes, while it is true that many NPDers never seek help or find independent need for change, the truth is YOU JUST DON"T KNOW UNTIL IT HAPPENS (forgive my CAPS, I don't know how to enable italics here). In my husband's case, there was a long period when I believed that change was not possible, that he would never come to understand how his behavior (the result of his inner terror) was harmful and unjustifiable, nor ever face himself and take responsibility for his actions and his own self-perceptions.

However, he ultimately did do all those things. While he is far from perfect (we see intense but brief spikes when he is feeling feraful or deep in self-loathing), he has grappled admirably with his issues and continues to do so, even though joint therapy has ended and he is now only receiving therapy individually.

The point, I guess, is that I see so many threads and posts here (and in other sites devoted strictly to "Narcissistic Abuse") that use black and white terms like "never" and "evil" to describe the (possible - how many of these "Ns" are actually diagnosed?) NPDers in question, and I find that disheartening.

As the child of a clearly Narcissistic mother (and grandfather (world class narcissist), though he and I got on well - driving up the envy factor for Mom), I still suffer today from the "Little Voice" that Dr. Grossman describes. That condition existed within me before I ever met my husband. The "Little Voice" is no less damaging to self and others, just perhaps more subtle. And the truth be told, probably just as few "little Voices" seek the help they need or seek to change, but instead continue to alternately mourn and silently seethe, quietly self-sabotaging and avoiding real intimacy in favor of acceptance, mystifying those around them who can see no earthly reason for it. This is spookily similar to the way others react to the Narcissist: "Why in the world would anyone do such a thing(s)?".

I feel that to condemn others who suffer similarly but behave differently to "never" and "evil" stauts is to essentially do the same to myself - thus condemning ME to a lifetime of diminished voice, and by extension, diminished self - which is exactly what drives the narcissist. Underneath it all, we're not so different.

I had come to this board after reading the articles/essays in hopes of finding others who were addressing their own issues of voice, and although I see some of that (more with those whose parents are the focus), I see more posts seeking support for contemporary (immedate or recent, spouse or sig-other related) issues than regard self-redirection and self-change.

While I certainly understand the immediate relief brought by demonizing the "perp", I do also think that this can cloud the deeper issues for many, diminishing the likelihood of lasting self-acknowledgement and self-change by prolonging rage and dissillusionment.

I do not intend to cast asperstions, but I have visited several  "Narcissistic Abuse" forums in the past (I guess due to the nature of Dr. Grossman's essays I thought this site would be focused differently, so my comments should be read with an understanding of my disappointment), and they all seem to be rhetorical and formulaic: "My N-EX is so evil and mean!". "He'/she is not even human!", "I'm so glad s/he got what was coming to him HAHAHAHA", "That SOB did it AGAIN", "I hope that B**** screws him over like he did me", etc., etc., etc. And while of a certain immediate benefit, I believe that kind of vitriol only serves to foster more rage, rather than helping to process and come to terms with it.

Again, it is just that kind of rage that fuels the narcissist, who continues to focus on the wrongdoings, real or imagined or some combination of both, of others - rather than on addressing the demons within, primary of which is lack of real voice.

The hardest part in all of my experience, up to now (having some way to go with self-repair), has been removing the focus from what others have done to me (legitimate complaints, to be sure) and shifting it to What I Can Do For Myself. Rage stinks, and it still does exist for me, but it has become clear that I will not be able to outmanuever it by either swallowing/burying it or directing it elsewhere. I feel my job is to accept what has happened, accept that I may or may not come to understand the motivation of the "perps" (which will not take away the confusion - "But WHY?" is and will always be the perrenial question), and charge myself with rebuilding my self-concept.

I think if one is strong in self, the need to understand WHY diminishes, and the search for solutions for self becomes more fruitful. I think of the "Why" question stage kind of like the little kid who keeps asking "Why" after every response, in hope that next time the answer will be different and easier to understand. Those of us who are parents (or were once children!), consistent ones, anyway, know that answer does not usually change, and the child ultimately has to go along for the ride even if they don't understand. We also know, from our own experience, that answers to many questions will be either illuminated or rendered unimportant as our experiece grows.

Again, these posts should be read with an understanding of my frustration at being unable to find message boards or communities that focus on the deeper meanings and self-applications of ideas like Dr. Grossman's rather than on the immediate slights and insults of those who betray us. To be sure, those copmplaints have a functional place in reaching understanding, but it is difficult to find places where those complaints are secondary to the larger issue of self-repair.

Thank you for reading.

Anonymous

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Narcissism
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2005, 02:42:08 PM »
I think there are a lot of posts here that have the content you're looking for. Whenever there is a group with "narcissism" in the title you will see all the vitriolic stuff that upsets you. It's inevitable. Maybe if there's a group about "psychology" or "psychotherapy" it might be more up your alley.

bunny

Cadbury

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Narcissism
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2005, 03:11:37 PM »
I do appreciate your points, but I think that people also come to this board to express their own feelings of hurt and upset that have been caused them by the NPDers in there lives. I don't think that people come here to deliberately be vitriolic, just that sometimes expressing the feelings can cause things to be said that may be true at the height of the situation, but are just an expression. What I'm trying to say is that all the things my ex has done and still does to me cause me anger, hurt and desperated unhappiness. I would like nothing better than to help him, but he really won't be helped. I say things on here simply because it is such a relief to find people who have some understanding of what I'm going through. When some of my girlfriends see the things he does to me they cannot understand why I would even give him the time of day. On here people have seen how good an NPDer can be and are more understanding of the lure. That is why (I think) people say things on here that they may not say in "real life", because they feel able to vent their feelings to people who understand.

I don't think that this board is full of people who want to kill their ex's/parents/children etc, just that some of the behaviours they have been subjected to can lead them to feel very strongly.

Hope some of this makes sense, have been having an extremely draining day!

Anonymous

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Narcissism
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2005, 07:46:06 AM »
Cadbury, just want to say:
Quote
He quite seriously said to me the other day that he was the nicest person he had ever met and he couldn't understand why I didn't want to be with him.

Unbelievable but true? We know. But it’s sad isn’t it. Such a show of perfection hides such insecurity. But it’s still shocking that people say these things and mean them!


Bkkabri, venting is okay.
Quote
wish I had the same ability as the Indian doctor had to make us happy again. I dont know the attraction, but she said talking about medicine and disease at night is important to her

She was such an amusing, caring, generous, humorous, giving person to be with wasn’t she? Not! Wow, I hope they enjoy their evenings discussing the finer points of hip surgery or varicose vein treatment or the effects of hepatitis. What a bundle of laughs that will be! Good luck to her, she sounds utterly one-dimensional and challenged in the personality department. Now I’m venting on your behalf! Sorry.

Anonymous

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Narcissism
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2005, 08:22:46 AM »
Quote
In my husband's case, there was a long period when I believed that change was not possible, that he would never come to understand how his behavior (the result of his inner terror) was harmful and unjustifiable, nor ever face himself and take responsibility for his actions and his own self-perceptions.

However, he ultimately did do all those things.


How did your husband finally get to the point of being able to do those thing?

What happened?  What helped him to face himself and take responsibility?

Anonymous

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Narcissism
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2005, 11:41:28 AM »
According to him, the "moment" came when he realized that under the prevailing conditions, I could not ever be his friend again nor could he reasonably expect it. This was a year after he abruptly took off with a very manipulative woman who preyed on his insecurities and his desire to be thought of as "perfect". Her agenda included his relatively sudden success in the music business, and her desire to be part of something "special". His personal weaknesses with insecurity and unrealistic self-image were compounded by the sudded successes and caused him to move directly to black-and-white-world (If I am successful I must be all good; no complaints can be valid) without passing go.

Apparently, when he picked up our daughter for his visit one day, it hit home with him that I was not positively responding to his friendliness for a damn good reason - and further realized that he really missed our friendship, which was the basis for our marriage in the first place. He also said that he had been experiencing the slow revelation that what he was doing was completely wrong and was harming many people, but he tried to avoid that thought for a long time and kept trying to convince himself (the woman was remorseless and not unhelpful in this area) that he was justified by dwelling on my shortcomings instead of his own actions. This served to unhinge him to the point of severe acting aout at a few points, this kind of "enforced cognitive dissonance", including some stalking and raging behavior that I knew was "not him" but were very frightening.

In short, his careful self-construct began to unravel because he repeatedly violated his own idea of his perfect self.

At that point, after the big "moment", he quietly went off and got himself a therapist. Several weeks later he broke it off with the woman and began to get more honest with me and himself.

That was about 3.5 years ago. We were in joint therapy for a time, a little under a year, and he continues to see his individual therapist. I saw a therapist for about two years, during the year he was gone and for another year after we reconciled.

My main goal right now is to navigate through my own issues of voicelessness.

Again, my disappointment has to do with the fact that the Message Board does not have Narcisissim in the title, and the articles and essays, while mentioning narcissism both as a cause and an effect of voicelessness, do not dwell on the concept.

I have a deep appreciation for the concepts set forth - and have developed a few ideas of my own in response to them. For example, I believe that "authentic voice" is an "I" statement, as opposed to a "we" statement or a "they/He/She" statement.

For example - "I am angry", "I am hurt", "I do not accept X.",  as opposed to "He makes me mad", "She hurt me", "Why are they so mean?".

I'm sure to some it sounds like a petty thing, but I do believe that language is functional in more respects than just communicating ideas. I believe it also shapes attitudes - about ourselves and others. In this way, language is very powerful - just simply in they way we relate ideas to ourselves and others, we tip the interpersonal power balnace.

"I feel abandoned" ", I am hurt" gives power, opportunity, hope - and responsibility - to the speaker. "He abandoned me", "She hurt me" give responsibility and power to the subject.

I'm not saying that those who hurt us are not guiilty for their actions - they are - but they technically are not responsible, in the sense that they can choose to take responsibility and make it up to us, but ultimately it is optional for them. So the only real, reliable way to deal with hurt and anger and fear etc. is to take on the power of ownership and responsibility for ourselves.

Just sayin' - and also tipping my hat to "easier said than done".

So - I'm in pursuit of power over my own "voicelessness", irrespective of whether it came from a narcissistic parent or partner or whether I just fall in the 50% nature category. Probably some of both.