You want to be really sure, but can you ever be sure?

[mirror2]

I believe my ex-partner is NPD.  We have three children together.  I moved across the country to a place he would never follow us to in a last desperate effort at self preservation, and it worked.  The kids are happy and I'm becoming more self-defined and feel upbeat and content most days.  Sometimes I think the kids are so much better at moving on because they don't analyze everything to death.  My wonderful sister, soon after I moved, enlightened me to what NPD is and I did a lot of research, coming to realize that the my ex-partner's mother is probably the narcissist he came from.  I have followed all the advice, and I do not talk with him on the phone. We exchange emails very infrequently, and I have seen him only twice since we split.  He got a new long-term girlfriend within a month or two after ending our 18-year relationship, but his life is certainly still a shambles.  

His current behavior seems to reinforce my feeling that he is NPD. He last saw the kids 7 months ago, he doesn't call much, he didn't respond at all to the custody documents so I have sole custody and control over visitation.  Even though I don't think he's good for the kids, I realize that keeping them isolated from him could backfire in a big way, so I work at being neutral -- after a few initial mis-steps I never suggested a visit or expressed expectations and have set some ground rules that require him to plan visits in advance, and as a result he has only managed two visits since we split, although the kids are going to visit his family shortly and will see him then.  I try very, very hard to stay neutral for the kids -- we talk about their dad in our daily conversations and remembrances and I sometimes tell them about our days before kids.  But I have also expressed my opinion that he is not being a great father right now.  He calls them on the phone every few weeks. A couple of times he has said he wants 50% custody (although he lives far away and has no concept of what he would have to do to get it).

Okay, long runup to my moments of doubt - I've removed his children from his life, removed his source of financial support, and not only that got a judgment that requires him to pay child support now (he never during our whole relationship contributed financially to our family). What if he's not NPD but just suffering tremendously from his own N mother's inflicted trauma?  Believe me, she is a walking nightmare.  Most of me says that, if that were the case, there would be some sign in his current behavior to contradict my feeling that he is NPD, and from what little I hear from his family and from him I don't get any of that.  But could I be making things worse?  There's nothing overt that makes me ever want to be with him again, and I continue to work on detaching those remaining threads that bind me to him emotionally.  But at some deep level I have doubt.  

I think perhaps the doubt comes because he always presents himself as being cooperative and completely interested in the kids' welfare.  But as I write this I can think of many examples even recently when his behavior didn't match up.  Forgetting our daughter's birthday, hanging around my house after I expressly told him that was not acceptable (during his one visit he even napped in my bed!!!), making promise after promise to the kids and then breaking each and every one, sending Christmas presents two weeks late and not calling them on Christmas.  Oh, and his phone conversations with them always last less than 5 minutes and are sort hello and goodbye oriented, with little in between.

At this point I don't plan to do anything differently, but I sometimes worry about different future scenarios where he tries to come back to the family and makes our lives hell just for the hell of it.  It's so difficult to find the right balance between protecting myself and my kids but still having empathy for him as a human being, never allowing myself to become what he is.  I'd appreciate hearing other people's experiences to help keep me strong but human.

[October]

I believe my ex-partner is NPD.  ... Sometimes I think the kids are so much better at moving on because they don't analyze everything to death.  .

It is your job as the adult to think, analyse and reflect on what is happening to you and the kids.  It is right that they should not have to do this, but it is also right that you do.  There is no such thing as thinking too much, although people who don't want you to think at all may say there is.

His current behavior seems to reinforce my feeling that he is NPD. He last saw the kids 7 months ago, he doesn't call much, he didn't respond at all to the custody documents so I have sole custody and control over visitation. ... I try very, very hard to stay neutral for the kids -- we talk about their dad in our daily conversations and remembrances and I sometimes tell them about our days before kids.  But I have also expressed my opinion that he is not being a great father right now.  He calls them on the phone every few weeks. .

Whatever label you use, NPD or not, he  is not a great dad, is he?  I am not sure it is right to stay neutral in this situation, because it is not realistic, and may cause your children internal tension, imo. (But this is just my opinion, and I may be wrong.)

My daughter has a dad who is not a great dad, and I say so.  I don't go out of my way to criticise him, but if he is behaving badly, we talk about it.  This in turn frees her to say so too.  We both admit that she loves him, and at some level I do too, but that he is too damaging to allow into our lives, except on a very intermittent basis.  I found it useful to explain 'ambivalent' to her, which allows her to both love and hate at the same time.  

But at some deep level I have doubt.  .

That is because you are human, and you are a nice person.  

I think perhaps the doubt comes because he always presents himself as being cooperative and completely interested in the kids' welfare.  But as I write this I can think of many examples even recently when his behavior didn't match up.  ...

I'd appreciate hearing other people's experiences to help keep me strong but human.

Ns are very good at saying the right things in order to manipulate us, but you are right in noticing that the actions somehow never quite match the fine words.  I used to say to my ex, love is not what you say, it is what you do.  He never could understand that one. He thought love was a warm feeling inside himself, and that was all that mattered - as long as it was there he could treat me like dirt and not even notice.  It made me feel ill to recieve soppy cards and such from him even after we split up, and I told him to stop.  He still tells our daughter that he loves me, but I tell her that he does not even begin to know the meaning of the word.

It is very difficult to be sure of another person 100%, in 100% of situations, and trying to achieve that will be endlessly frustrating.  You may find it helpful to move instead to the kind of 'knowledge' required in a legal case, where there is talk instead of such things as 'reasonable doubt' and 'reasonable belief'.  If you think that there is reasonable doubt of his ability to be a good enough father to your children, given the evidence you have, then that is enough.

You can have all the empathy you like for a murderer or a child molester.  But you would never let them near your kids, would you??  Same with NPDs.  Different scale, maybe, but same reasons.  Meanwhile, I would say, encourage your children to speak the truth as they see it, and do not pretend neutrality where it cannot exist.  In  my opinion, and it is only an opinion, they need to know how to speak the truth, because it will empower them for the future.

All the best

C

[Anonymous]

mirror2:  Congratulations on getting yourself disentangled with your N and N mother-in-law.  I am a survivor of 50 years worth of N's.  Believe me in your "softer" moments you want things to be different......but they aren't.  N's are very adept at presenting themselves as "caring" in certain circumstances, but over the long haul.....forget it.  

As far as your children are concerned, as they mature must come to their conclusions about their "father".  He will eventually drift away and his behavior will speak volumes.  They will realize that the true nuturing, sacrificing has not come from him but from you.  Little does he realize as he gets older that this will matter.  

Speaking from experience, N's show back up when they begin to age.  The looks are fading, the money is squandered, the health is failing....so they will lay the "guilt trip" on the children to continue to get their N supply and to be taken care of.  It happens somewhere around the 50 or 55 year mark.  When  your children are grown, educated and on their own they will look at him as if he were a space alien and say "who are  you?"

Believe me the investment you are making in your children, their welfare, your welfare, is the best deposit you could possibly make.  Many hugs, Patz

[bunny]

mirror2,

He needs to get his s*** together as a parent. Even if his mother is an N.  Since he hasn't tried to do so, and since his functioning is so immature, the children need to be protected from him.  You can have all the empathy you want for him, and still protect your children. They can't do it by themselves. I think your children will thank you later for being a good mom.

bunny

[mum]

No, you can never be sure. Do the best you can with the information you have and go with your positive/loving intention.  Sounds like you have. You have lucky kids.

[mirror2]

Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses.  I am starting to understand better that it will never be truly over since we share these kids.  I agree that he will probably drift away, but I had not thought beyond that to a point where he will probably come back full strength.  Many people think it's harsh to feel the way I do - that the sooner he loses interest in the kids the better.  But my family, who have witnessed the isolation and control over all these years, know better.  My sisters worry that he will show up, see how well we live, and decide not to leave.  That is why I decided to stay in this remote place far from his other sources, where his presence will alert everyone and he knows he cannot try any of his usual tricks.  My family, friends, the cops, the store owners, are all on alert for his presence and it gives me a great sense of security.  

I struggle with this double life.  To my kids I feel an obligation never to speak negatively about him, but to the rest of my town he's perceived (correctly) as a threat to them.  But I have also been very careful to talk to them and remind them about being safe and never to go anywhere with their father without my knowing exactly where they are.  Despite all the limitations on visitations placed by the court and with the cooperation of his family, I know the only way they can stay safe is to understand themselves that he absolutely cannot take care of them, that he often acts without thinking through the consequences.

I'm a little stressed in these two weeks leading up to the visit with his family, even though I think he is too involved with other things to try anything.  But I think this is the only place I can honestly confess my worries about his incestuous impulses and ability to completely mislead people, and I know you won't think I'm a paranoid worrywort.  His family, despite seeing and experiencing many of his behaviors, have no idea they have only seen the tip of the iceberg.  But they are completely conditioned to this type of behavior given their mother.

My own mother is a narcissist and abuser extraordinaire, but because I come from a large family I think we were able to help each other an see that her reality was not our reality.  Some of us hooked up with narcissists when we were really young (I was 19 when I met mine), but as we get into our thirties we somehow manage to break free.  I thank God every day that I have this second chance.

[bunny]

I don't think you're a paranoid worrywort. He sounds very dangerous if he has incestuous impulses. Are visits with his family supervised?

bunny

[no1where]

Recently, I read an online article regarding n parents and divorce (google: narcissistic parent), regarding the n parent and the non n parent and what the children will be subjected to.

it seems the n parent will always suspect the other of bad-mouthing him with the kids, particularly when the kids realize daddy (n parent) is a difficult individual and withdraw.

catch 22, you're going to be accused of it anyway.

without resorting to slander, you might consider letting the kids eventually know daddy is sick, it'll prepare them for the realization when it comes and sort of forewarn them too, which might be an appropriate knowledge for them to have in case he acts on any incestous influences.

good luck.  stay strong. light

no1

[mirror2]

I believe he has incestuous tendencies but has never acted on them. They seemed to have just been starting to show up a year ago when our oldest turned 9, he even accused me of causing them.  We left less than a month later.  But I did not bring this up during the custody determination because I didn't need to -- it was a default judgment in my favor giving him nothing.  Because we were never married, he had never bothered to legally establish his paternity, and he didn't respond to the paperwork, so it was very simple for me to get custody.

With that said, I have shared this information with my family and we all agree that we need to be vigilant -- the degree is a subject of much debate.  I currently believe that he is not likely to act on it in the absence of living with the kids and very limited access, but I worry about one of my kids in particular who is always anxious to please.  The other two are more likely to confront him.  

He does not have a place to live right now and the kids will be going to their aunt's house for the visit.  I will shortly write him an email with ground rules for the visit (I also copy all the members of his family), and as before I will require that the kids stay at either of their two aunts houses each night and talk with me on the phone each morning.  I will also have a session with each kid before the trip to remind them about all the safety rules.  And if anything stinks then I have the option of further restricting future visits.  At this point I plan not to allow any overnight unsupervised visits for the forseeable future.  Again, I can't really come right out and accuse him of bad behavior because he hasn't demonstrated it, only thought about it and mentioned it to me in an effort to punish and humiliate me, maybe even exagerated to get to me.  I'm loathe to demonize someone but also completely unwilling to ever let my children to be in a position of being abused.  They have suffered enough.

[bunny]

m2,

Better safe than sorry -- you're taking reasonable precautions! I hope it works out okay. I don't see you demonizing him, just sensibly cautious.

bunny

[serena]

Respectfully, if you have genuine concerns about your children being sexually abused, you should not let them near this man.

Otherwise - it's a very big accusation to make if unfounded!!

I hope your children stay safe - I have the family history to understand this type of abuse............

[Anonymous]

tell your kids a secret code word/sentence that they can say on the phone to you if they are feeling uncomfortable and want to come home....something like:

"Can we rent a movie when I get home?" or something that they can easily remember and use if they want you to come and get them immediately.

[mirror2]

Serena,

The thing is, I'm certain that he has never acted on his feelings, because I removed the children from him very shortly after he expressed himself and before that he had been depressed and so not involved in taking care of the kids at all -- he was never alone with just one at a time although he did babysit all three a few times that last year.  But he did, in fact, tell me that he felt "inappropriate things" when he was snuggled up with our daughter.  I think those were his words.  I asked him what he meant, and he said that because I was so cold emotionally his desires were coming up at bad times, like when he sat with our daughter to read stories.  Oddly enough, this was at a time when I was trying extra hard to reconnect with him, that last ditch effort before I realized things were hopeless.  He was engaging in lots and lots of tortuous behavior and manipulation at the time.  Looking back I can see how it was a game for him to see how much he could push me, and he was already looking forward to meeting a new woman.

But once someone expresses these things, don't you have to take them seriously?  It's not something a normal person would feel, or even use during an argument with their spouse.  It's also a known phenomenon with narcissistic people.  So my approach has been to be extra careful.  I have never accused him of incest or sexual abuse of the children because I don't believe it happened.  I have never shared this experience before outside my closest family members -- not even all of them know.

I like the idea of the code phrase and will suggest it to the kids.  My gut instinct is that everything will probably go fine this time, as they will be with their extended family and he does not have a car or a home of his own -- just his girlfriend's place.

This is a very difficult issue to struggle with, fills me with shame for having children with someone like that and putting them into such a world.  It's something I never even came close to dealing with before last year.  I very much appreciate having a safe place to talk about it with people who are not so shocked and disbelieving of it.

Mir

[Anonymous]

mirror2,

You're right -- it has to be taken seriously. He is now a high-risk person around children. Even if he mainly said it to push your buttons. No normal person admits to stuff like that just to push someone's buttons. They usually accuse the other person of being inappropriate. Anyway, now that he's admitted to this, it's over for him. He can't be around children without other adults supervising.

Because your kids have one good parent, they will probably be okay.

The code phrase is a great idea.

bunny

[serena]

I'm sorry, I didn't realise your husband had actually discussed this with you.  Would it be possible to arrange that any visitation be supervised?