Author Topic: She doesn't get it.  (Read 6490 times)

Anonymous

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2005, 06:22:35 AM »
PS. Are you being too hard on her? No. What you think is in your head and you are free to think whatever you wish. You can entertain the most outrageous, hurtful thoughts, it does us good sometimes to be really hateful in our heads!

Actions are what we're responsible for. I wonder what she made of your reply: she may not have understood it! She may have thought "Here I am, trying to tell My Story, my way and my daughter thinks I'm talking about her!". I think she's trying to impose her fantasy on the cruel external world and it doesn't work. So she's probably just confused by your reply? Maybe? But you're standing up for your reality and that's a healthy action. L

Screamer

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2005, 12:14:50 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
PS. Are you being too hard on her? No. What you think is in your head and you are free to think whatever you wish. You can entertain the most outrageous, hurtful thoughts, it does us good sometimes to be really hateful in our heads!

Actions are what we're responsible for. I wonder what she made of your reply: she may not have understood it! She may have thought "Here I am, trying to tell My Story, my way and my daughter thinks I'm talking about her!". I think she's trying to impose her fantasy on the cruel external world and it doesn't work. So she's probably just confused by your reply? Maybe? But you're standing up for your reality and that's a healthy action. L


It might have been better if I did not reply at all.  That is usually the best way to deal with her.  

Thank you for resonding!

Screamer

Anonymous

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2005, 12:18:31 PM »
Quote from: Luego
With mine, the facts (like actual dates and events) are irrelevant to her statements. She seems to state things which are about her internal fantasy world, and which bear no relation to what actually happens. She says things which make me gasp with wonder - strange ideas, like she intends to do something which she is not equipped to do (like go on a skiing holiday with a broken leg, as though the leg isn't broken).

I don't imagine the 14th is strategically picked as such - it's her expression of some warped ideas of 'love' and 'emotion' in her mind. I'd go as far to say she's confusing her relationship to you with her life's love relationships. This really isn't about the real you at all and it's very sad. (Maybe she's even acting out some other relationship, via you?? I think my mother has seen me as my father at times.)


Luego,

You may be right.  She does seem to live in a fantasy world.  It is very often that she tells me that I dreamed some event, or that the event never happened.  Or even completely rewrite the event all together.  

Sometimes it makes me think I'm really the crazy one.

longtire

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2005, 02:28:13 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Quote from: Luego
With mine, the facts (like actual dates and events) are irrelevant to her statements. She seems to state things which are about her internal fantasy world, and which bear no relation to what actually happens. She says things which make me gasp with wonder - strange ideas, like she intends to do something which she is not equipped to do (like go on a skiing holiday with a broken leg, as though the leg isn't broken).

I don't imagine the 14th is strategically picked as such - it's her expression of some warped ideas of 'love' and 'emotion' in her mind. I'd go as far to say she's confusing her relationship to you with her life's love relationships. This really isn't about the real you at all and it's very sad. (Maybe she's even acting out some other relationship, via you?? I think my mother has seen me as my father at times.)


Luego,

You may be right.  She does seem to live in a fantasy world.  It is very often that she tells me that I dreamed some event, or that the event never happened.  Or even completely rewrite the event all together.  

Sometimes it makes me think I'm really the crazy one.


Guest, I feel the same way.  I KNOW that my wife has a serious problem reverting to denial and even understand many of the childhood causes with her mother that lead her to that.  Her main response is "That didn't happen!" when I try to discuss something with her.  When she says that, it pushes my buttons every single time!  I start questioning all over again whether maybe I really am insane and just too insane to realize it.  I hate it.  The good news is that I'm getting a lot better and faster at retracing my mental steps and the conclusion is always the same.  That its way easier to believe that she is saying the same unconnected thing each time like a tape recorder, than me hallucinating something different for each situation.  I am working to indentify and work through my issues that are being triggered here so I don't react so strongly when it happens.  However, I recognize that I cannot be emotionally safe around her.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Anonymous

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2005, 04:23:06 AM »
Screamer,

I think you may want to really consider whether you want your mother in your life once your child is born.  For years I had nothing but a superficial with my parents.  Everything was always about them.  My mom was always talking about the latest thing she bought or whatever.  If I went to say anything about my life in the middle of a sentence she would just break in not responding to what I was saying but instead going on about her life.  When I became pregnant (at the age of 38 ) all of a sudden she was interested in my life and I allowed us to get close.  After a few years it was all back to about her and she has attempted to reck havic in my families life, my father supports her in this.  We have chosen now not to have any contact with them.  It would have been easier on us and our child if we hadn't really developed a relationship with them when I was pregnant.  My child is handling it pretty well (she is now 6 and it has been almost a year since we've had contact, that is except for the email now and then which I don't respond to) but it still is hard on her having had them in her life and now out of her life.  My daughter did witness some of the crazyness and we are using this as a learning opportunity that even though we may care about someone and love someone sometimes it is necessary not to have them in your life.

jondo

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she doesn't get it
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2005, 10:24:09 AM »
Dear guest before this post,

I am interested to know more about your situation.  How did you sever the relationship with your parents?  Was it by way of discussion, in writing or just silence?  That is the dilema of many N children.  Could you please elaborate?  Thanks much
jondo

Anonymous

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2005, 03:30:28 AM »
jondo,

Well things had been going bad for about 2 years, we don't live close to each other.  I did live close to them until I was married and moved far, far away (I married someone from Europe), but we regularly spent time with each other on the phone, email and extended visits to each other.  Really for the first four years things went VERY well, remember for at least 10 years before this I only had a superficial relationship with them, my parents didn't know much of anything that was going on in my life.  During those 10 or so years I saw them once or twice a month for a few hours each time.  I didn't try to talk about my life and just listened about their life.  Well after four years of having a real relationship the BS started again which had initially caused me in the first place to stop even trying to have a real relationship with them.  This time I confronted my mom during each incident of BS (which there was about a dozen of them over the two years) instead of just emotionally withdrawing from the relationship which is pretty much what I had done 14 or so years earlier (which is now 17 years ago and there was an incident at that time which instigated my emotional withdrawing).

So about a year ago there was an incident while they were visiting us, well there was a couple but this was the final, and this one my father also was involved in with his BS, and my father suggested that we didn't see each other anymore.  We told them we didn't think this was the way to handle it, that we thought we needed to work out our problems, but if they were not willing to work out the problems then that would have to be the way it would be.  After my mom was home for a month she called me like nothing ever happened and I let her know that I was interested in talking to her like nothing ever happened and if she wanted to have a relationship we would have to try to work things out.  We then wrote an email to my father (saying we would have to work things out or not have anything to do with each other like HE SUGGESTED and that he might want to really think if this was going to make his wife happy and the ramifications then to himself).  He wrote back saying it wasn't his problem and when we decided we didn't have a problem with them any longer to contact them.  Of course about a month later my mom calls again acting like nothing ever happened and I told her I did not want to talk to her on the phone and if she had anything to say to me to write me an email.  She also wanted to speak to my child which I told her I wasn't going to allow her to.

A few days later I wrote her an email saying that they needed to decide what they wanted, if they didn't want to have anything to do with us THEN LEAVE US ALONE.  If they were interested in having a relationship they were going to have to decide if they wanted a superficial one or one like we had had earlier for four years.  If they wanted any kind of relationship there were things that would have to be worked out.  Well she sent an email back saying they wanted to work things out and they wanted to have a close relationship again.  We exchanged a few emails and it became just the same BS.  The final email from her was something about what a terrible daughter I was and she wasn't going to allow herself to be treated like this anymore and she hopes that someday when my daughter grew up that someone lets her know that it wasn't them that kept them from seeing her and that I needed to get outside help.  Well that outside help was something that she threw at me a lot, about a year and a half earlier she told me I needed to go see a psychologist.  When I was in my early 20's I did see a couple psychologists, they were working together and I went with my first husband.  They did all kinds of tests on us and talked to us quite a bit over a three month period and determined that there was nothing wrong with me and that my then husband needed extended therapy.  About a year or so later my then husband and I parted ways on good terms, we had no children.  My mother was quite aware of that, also my current husband and I saw a psychiatrist for a short time because we have custody of his two boys who were teenagers when we got married and his mother was interfering in our raising of our children and it was causing us problems.  We worked through that very quickly and my mother was also aware of that.  So I sent her back an email saying that she didn't have to worry because we had already told our daughter that WE were not allowing her grandparents to have contact with her and that it was our opinion that she was the one who needs "outside help".

Well awhile later she sent a birthday card to my daughter with a check in it.  A few days after her birthday she wrote me an email asking if I had given it to her.  I said yes (my husband read it to her the night of her birthday when he put her to bed and she asked him not to leave it in her room).  I told my mother that we told her we would take her out and buy her some boats because of the check that was in the card, which we did but we didn't cash the check.  Then about a month before Christmas she emailed me if it was OK if she put some money in my account to buy our daughter Christmas presents with, I already had the presents that she had bought for the boys (who are now 21 and 22) when my parents had visited here last time.  She had bought them then because we (me, my husband and daughter) were supposed to go spend this past Christmas with them at their house, which was not going to happen.  I told her that we felt uncomfortable about it and that we were going to make an appointment with our psychiatrist to talk about it and we would let her know.  Well less than two weeks later I get an email with her wanting to know what's going on, BUT her computer isn't really working too good she wrote.  I had already talked with the psychiatrist once and had another appointment set up and had not really come to a decision but was leaning against taking money from them for our daughter.  I was thinking if she was smart she would have bought some presents for her and sent them to her instead of playing these little games.  Anyways I called her up and told her that I had another appointment and had not decided but was leaning against it.  She started in with her BS in which I was stern and countered it firmly, I also told her that if she wanted to talk to our psychiatrist that it probably could be arranged.  She ended up hanging up saying she wasn't going to be treated like this.  About a week later I sent her an email that was a few paragraphs summing up things from our end and thought I made it pretty clear that we didn't want her money.  A little more than a week later she sent me another email asking if we had made up our mind about the money and asking if we were going to give the boys the gifts that were here that she had bought them, I guess I wasn't clear enough so I sent another email simply saying that we didn't want her money and we would give the boys the gifts that were already here.  In the meantime we had talked to our daughter and explained things, she did not want the money and THEN we told her we would buy extra presents for her this year to make up for it and because her brothers got extra presents from grandma and grandpa.  Our daughter was fine with that.

About a month ago I got a call from her saying she had just came back from the doctor and her cancer had come back.  That she probably will decide not to have surgery and probably will have chemotherapy which will probably let her live for two more years and if she does nothing she will probably die in six months or so.  Over four years ago (about a year and a half before the BS started) she had cancer and had surgery and radiation.  It was never actually located but was in her throat area and she had many lymph nodes removed.  She was a heavy smoker and continues to smoke.  At this time my phone connection was not working good and I could hardly hear her or her me.  I told her I was sorry to hear that and then she said she was too upset right now to talk, she had just gotten back from the doctor and if I wanted to talk to her sometime to give her a call.  Well I just don't really want to talk to her, yes I feel sorry for her, however this does not change things.  Hey I've felt sorry for her my whole life, the first memory I have is from when I was 5 or 6 and it is of her beating me with a brush until the brush broke with the handle left in her hand and the other piece flung up about 10 feet hitting the wall (we were in a stairwell) and I remember thinking then what a poor sick lady, what has happened in your life to bring you to this point.  I wasn't even crying and I just looked at her like I felt sorry for her and was confused (my feelings), I don't know what she was thinking about the look I gave her but she never really hit me again after that.  Although in the past couple years she did threatened to and I gave her a look that could kill and I told her to go ahead, I think she got it that she wasn't going to intimidate me with that.

Well a couple weeks ago it was my birthday and I got an email from my mom saying she couldn't let the day go by without wishing me a HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!  I didn't let it ruin my day, luckily I didn't get it till late in the afternoon.  I read through it quickly and CHOSE not to think about it that day.  The next day I did think about it and was thinking I would have rather not have gotten it, it did not make me feel good, I hoped she got pleasure out of it because I sure did not and then I chose to just not respond to it.  So I imagine that she will continue to contact me.  I've already decided that as far as her illness and death I chose not to be there for her and that's what I will tell her if need be.  Last time they were here after my father said that we ought to not see each other he actually told my husband that this would not end till my mother died.  This statement bothered both my husband and me.  My father feeds into her BS and I hate to tell him that once she is dead if he thinks he is just going to pick up with a relationship with us he is sadly mistaken.  Well that was quite long and probably to detailed, hope it helps.

LM

vunil

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2005, 08:22:00 AM »
Screamer--

I'm afraid I might have instigated some of your worrying with my post on an earlier thread implying your mom might be trying to reach out to you.  I'm really sorry about that!  I am in a very similar stage as you now with my parents (although we interact a little more, at least my mom and I do), including starting a family and trying to figure out how everything figures in.
And I think I secretly want to believe that they are going to reach out to me and we'll move beyond everything.  

A couple of months ago, I tried to start communicating with my parents about what I assumed they also knew was really not a very good childhood.  I also told them some things they didn't know had happened, including a sexual molestation that I feel was the result of neglectful behavior on their part.  They completely dismissed me.  They told me they would "go with you to get professional help."  They denied everything negative I said.  And, most oddly, listed all of the stuff they had done for me when I was a child.  They asked what they could do to repair the relationship, in exactly the same sort of pretend-loving tone I see in your mom's letter.  They said they would do anything!  Anything!

So, I wrote back that what I would like is for one or both of them to go to therapy.  Separately, together, whatever.  They have never been and I have and it would help us if we ever want to go together.  There's no sense going together if they haven't worked anything out on their own.  [And of course I was testing them to see if by "go with you to get professional help"  they meant "explain to the therapist that we are fabulous and she is crazy."]  

What I got was the world's biggest dismissal.  I should publish it in the narcissists' hall of fame.  Some of the phrases were "we are happy in our life.   We hope someday you can be happy in your life" and "we are not the ones who need help" and "we have nothing that we regret, either in the past or in the present."  (Remember that I had just told them that their actions led to my being molested).

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that I see now that your mom's letter was a house of cards.  If you wrote or called and let her know what you really need or want from her, it would (and did) fall apart.   Everything is on her terms, which means that no communication can happen.  I guess I can't help but want one more try, because it is so hard to accept that people are lost causes.  But I should know better!

jondo

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she doesn't get it
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2005, 10:02:40 AM »
I want to start by addressing the title you gave your original post - "she doesn't get it".  That is so important to me because it capsulates the dunamic that many N children struggle with. What I came to understand after years of therapy is this - If they don't get it - it's not my problem.  More importantly, it's not my problem to defend my position and convince them of anything.  That is the ultimate position to have with an N.  I haven't read any of your earlier threads so I don't know what you mean by incidents and BS.  I'd like to know if she's as delusional as my mother. Regarding your details (thanks) I want to tell you that my situation is nearly exact to yours.  Including the father that goes along with her (mine simply fears her and is spineless), the many years of strained, superficial relations (no meaningful contact, I literally have not/can't look either of them in the eye and I don't think I have since I was 12.  I have never had a relationship with either of them my entire life and theydon't know me.  Yet she wants to continue with our "close" relationship as though when I'm ready, I'll get over whatever my problem is.  This is the bizarre dynamic that many of these N parents saddle their children with.  It's the ultimate in child abuse in my opinion.  Also, the calls weeks later as though nothing preceded it.  N's are very accustomed to people (especially their own children) not having the courage to oppose them.  Also similar is the money - she sends myself and other siblings presents and money that go uncashed or unused and not responded to.  (3 of her 4 children do not speak to her!) One would think that is evidence enough that she needs to change in some way however she maintains to her circle of people who don't know her, that 'nobody" can figure out what their problem is.  She promotes to anybody who will listen that she was the best mother and had the closest of relationships with them  etc.  This is 100% opposite to the truth and reality that I simply quit talking to her when I was 12.  Anyway, present day situation is this - We have our first child now and she has tried to get our "relationship back this past year, in the usual way that you describe.  I simply tell her (e-mail, to get the help she needs and remind her of her relationship problems and encourage her to get help and we will be here when, and only if, she gets help.  Here's the real amazing thing (delusional).  She promotes to others that she has apologized to her children for "whatever" she's done and can do nothing but wait until we get the therapy we need to figure out "our" problems are,taking responsibility for ourselves and move on - as she's done (?!)  It is so frustrating that your own parent can cause so much damage to their own children isn't it.  Also, she is starting with the health problems and death.  She's been a hypochondriac her entire life and has used her health crisies to get attention.  All of her kids including me spent our entire lives at the doctors and hospitals.  I understood when I was 5 that it was for the purpose of her spending hours on the phone informing people of the latest thing she's had to endure as the amazing mother she is.  I wanted to say that I still find it amazing that there are other people out there that have had similar experiences.  I truly thought I did have some kind of problem until I understood this N sickness.  That was the happiest day of my life.  In fact it has been included in my last few reply's/rejections to her contact - a link to the Voicelessness website and the suggestion that she get the help she needs.  That is the extent of our relationship and that is all she deserves.  Thanks for your words.
jondo

Anonymous

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2005, 11:09:58 AM »
Jondo,

Quote
She promotes to others that she has apologized to her children for "whatever" she's done and can do nothing but wait until we get the therapy we need to figure out "our" problems are,taking responsibility for ourselves and move on - as she's done (?!) It is so frustrating that your own parent can cause so much damage to their own children isn't it.

Yep. I love that. :evil:  "I've done my therapy work and it's not my fault so the blame is with you!"

This attitude gets everywhere including here sometimes! (- not this thread, okay). It makes me ILL!! Bleurgh... :P

Please deliver us from false people who fling psych terms around as though they understand. Anyone who insists that all the problem, absolutely all of it, is someone else's responsibilility or fault - hasn't got a clue. Am I venting? Yeah. I'll stop. Commiserations Jondo. Portia

jondo

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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2005, 11:41:26 AM »
Absolutely.  Depending on how severe the lying/delusion is - there are know limits to claims or references.  My mother tells all that she's seen "the best therapist in the country" (It's always the best or worst with N's - depending on which has more impact) They literally craft and manipulte everything.  She considers this a talent and other people's lacking or weakness - they're just stupid.  Anyway, I spent many years trying to untangle her lies and misrepresentations (that all were for her gain of reputation/image) at the cost of her children having to look at the flor and pretend along (invisible).  Now there is no more pretending.  She's on her own to find answers - I don't supply her the answers she wants/needs.
jondo

Anonymous

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2005, 12:06:32 PM »
jondo,

I think the post from you a few posts back is to me (LM) and I am not the originator of this thread (Screamer is the originator) so I did not come up with the title of "She doesn't get it."  Although like you I think it is such an appropriate title concerning such persons.  This is now only my third post on this board so there isn't any other threads with further detail.

jondo you are right in the end (since we are now adults) it isn't really our problem unless we allow it to be our problem.  It's interesting that when I sent the email back to my dad after he said that it wasn't his problem and we should contact them when we decided we didn't have a problem with them anymore (I forgot to include in my last post my response to him after that email) that my response to him was that he was right that according to them it had always been my problem and not theirs and that I was taking care of my problem which is that it has always been my problem and not my parents problem.  I then added that they could blame me all they had to, to live with themselves.

As far as the apologizing, I don't think my mother has ever apologized for anything in her life.  Part of the first incident a few years ago was my mother screaming at my husband and shaking her finger right in his face when he was standing next to one of our sons.  She never apologized for that and in one of her emails when we were trying to work things out she said that last time she was here she "profusely apologized" for it, I responded that we both distinctly recall that she did not apologize and that maybe she though when she told him how much she liked him that in her mind this was an apology (we all know how that works don't we).  I then wrote that we did not consider such to be an apology and that the apology that she claims she made exists nowhere except in her mind.  It was after that email that I received the one about what a terrible daughter I was etc. etc. etc.

Also concerning your last post, maybe you might want to ask your mother to give you the name of this "best therapist in the country" that she visited so that you can make an appointment for the two of you to attend.  I would bet that by now I guess the person has died or moved to another country LOL.  

LM

vunil

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She doesn't get it.
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2005, 12:22:43 PM »
Quote
My mother tells all that she's seen "the best therapist in the country"



That is really funny.  Sometimes I think we should have a thread (or a folder or something) of the most hilariously narcissistic things ever said or done.

Black humor, I know.  But sometimes it is really funny.

The best therapist in the country!  Priceless.  So she must be the most-fixed person in the world!  How could you argue with her?  

Would it be in poor taste (or outside the aims of these boards) to have such a thread?  I find laughter of that kind healing (some might find it too sarcastic).

jondo

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« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2005, 06:56:55 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up (on the origin)  Yes, thats the typical language of an N - the best etc.  One of her others is "profusely" for it's extreme conotation.  I didn't expand enough on the "best therapist in the country" quote.  Everybody knows she didn't see anybody, but she says it anyway.  She may have read a chapter in a book and therefore.....you just get used to deciphering an extreme N like this.  I've never known her to tell the truth in any situation no matter how big or small.  This one is surely a lie.  In fact it's origin, after I severed the relationship and she reacted, was that she went into a 6 month long relationship course on how to have better relations with your spouce - she parlayed that into a masters degree of all things related to phsychology.  You know what is the beautiful thing that I've understood and has become my disposition with respect to her - the old time-tested bible adage - You Reap What You Sow.  I don't have a relationship because well.....thats just the result.  I'm the child and you are the adult - you explain it then - I'm done accomodating your needs.  I like this subject.
jondo

mum

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« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2005, 08:09:57 PM »
Vunil: absolutely! A black humor thread: the most narcissistice comments ever. Carhartic,  I would think.  But you start....I'm such a bigmouth chicken.....