learning to sit with pain and emptiness?

[Anonymous]

Hello All:

I have read this thread and it brought back memories.  When I first found myself alone, the anxiety of every day was a real thing.  I remember awakening to a black cloud every morning for about 2 years.  It was as if I were looking into a black hole with nothing peering back at me.  It was endless.  However, I read somewhere that if you "lean" into your pain, just as if you were "leaning" into a terrific wind storm, helped to "work" through this tortureous path.

One day I awoke and found that the big blue elephant in the room was gone.  Patz

[write]

( I tested Infj & every aspect of the 'type' fits me: the crusading, the 'mute withdrawal', even the love of quotations! ) I found it very useful to understand what I am doing when I suddenly 'go extrovert' ( hardened infj-ers call it fe-ing or feeling extroverted )

I am incredibly ( impractically some of my nearest would say ) idealistic and though I don't get deeply involved in so many things as I get older, I really do believe I have a duty to try to change things for the better, or to help other people.

And the benefits of living like that come into my own life too: even with n h the fact I stayed kind to him and supported him has made it easier for him to back down and step up to the plate.

I guess though I am an easy target for people to take advantage of: a common complaint amongst the infj collective!

Particularly men: I am so wanting that contact sometimes, and there's a certain type of man who acts all sensitive for a while but is really only interested in a one-up on-off relationship...they chase you if you seem unavailable and reject you if you say ok.

Approach-avoidance it's called.

And again: it's because they can't do intimacy, or only at a very controlled distance.

Which brings me to a big mental leap for me here: I'm thinking that since I engage in these half-assed relationships and turn down or run away from anything more substantial...maybe I can't do intimacy right now either, at least not until this huge emotional open wound heals some more?


"...perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain."
R D Laing

[vunil]

However, I read somewhere that if you "lean" into your pain, just as if you were "leaning" into a terrific wind storm, helped to "work" through this tortureous path.

I really agree with this.  Another thing that has helped me as I separate more and more from the narcissism in my family (and its vestiges) is to never force myself to move from where I am-- if what I'm feeling is a vague uncomfortableness, I just feel that for awhile.  If I feel mad, I feel that, too, with as few thoughts as possible about it and absolutely no attempt to fix it.  One of the keys to working through pain seems to be not to rush it, because if you do you might rush on by it instead of going through it.

I'm an extrovert, but I also think that working through stuff like this on my own has really had its place.  Even articulating what I'm feeling to someone else sometimes puts it in too narrow a box.  And anyone who lived with narcissists is used to having feelings and thoughts defined for them-- I think it's good to avoid any possibility of that by just sitting with whatever comes up, without trying to define it for anyone else.  And I even try to keep the voices in my head (who reflect my parents, I guess) from jumping to conclusions or judging any of it.  Just living it usually is the best way to get through it.  



just 2 (or 3) cents.

[vunil]

and p.s.  I think that feelings of emptiness often come from either accepting someone else's judgment (they rejected me and left, so I am empty without them) or from not really trusting or knowing what we're wanting.  So life is just this sort of acting out based on other people's feelings and opinions.  I've felt this a lot and the answer often is to get their opinions and judgments out of my mind to just be quiet for a bit so I can figure out what I want.  Often what I'm yearning for has nothing to do with what I thought it was-- when I realize what I really want (and allow myself to want it), everything seems much cheerier.

hang in there  it will get better.

[longtire]

This thread is bringing up a lot of loneliness for me.  I don't think it would hurt as much if I could find someone to share this loneliness with.

I consistently rate INTJ on the personality test.  BTW, does anyone else retake the test periodically to see if they're changing?  I used to be InTj, meaning the I & T were very stong and the n and j more balanced.  Today I'm coming up IntJ.  I like that I'm getting more balanced toward the feeling side of things, but being more J worries me since I've decided that its a bad thing.     (Please tell me you get the joke so I don't feel so alone.)

INTJ is the one descriptions refer to as being less than 1% of the population.  And all the dicussions are quick to point out that every type is equally valid, etc.  But, I don't believe that people outside the "personality" research field actually feel that way.  My experience has been that the vast majority of other people can't even comprehend me, and even pity me for not being "right."  If they can't even connect with me because I'm too alien for them, how could they possibly ever meet my needs?

I know part of this comes from my wife, who basically has witheld all the good stuff until I realize how wrong I am and start meeting all her needs.  I've never heard I was a good human being or person from her, just why can't I be the way she wants me to be.  I think this uniqueness is where I got the idea that I was an alien growing up without any validation from my parents.  In some ways I AM a rare creature.  I wish with all my heart that others could see the value in that instead of reacting with hostility to the differentness that challenges their preconceptions.

I like myself the way I am.  Given the choice to change (as opposed to growing), I would not take it.  I'm always looking for ways to grow.  I like being the one who can find and fix the problems and fill in the cracks that others leave and make it successful, whatever the "it" is.  I'm the one always saying "what if" and backing people up.  On days when I'm feeling strong, this is enough.  On days like today, though, I really long to have a woman in my life who really sees me clearly, and chooses to be with me, respect me and trust me with full awareness.

I've changed my own awareness and beliefs even over the course of this thread, but I'll let it stand as it is.  This realization really drives home that I want more people in my life that I can have deep conversations with.  That's how I make the most progress and work out my feelings.  I'd like to have more people like all of you to talk with.  Wow, I'm feeling a lot of intense feelings today.

[Anonymous]

Dear Longtire:

This is the exact time you do not need a SO in your life.  The hole of lonliness you are experiencing is something you must first learn to live with and manage.

There are many more horrible things than experiencing lonliness. The first and foremost is living in a house with a narc female whose whole world revolves around her.  The second would be living in a house where you have a brother and sister type relationship.  The third would be the combination of these two which would be a one way relationship which you are the primary "giver" and with no intimacy.

We all long for closeness and intimacy, but at what price?  I remember well when my SO other left, it felt as if I had been thrown out on the tundra with no overcoat, no soft place to go, cold and frozen on the inside.

Another analogy would be that you have been living in a huge, fenced in yard.  You are in the corner and the SO narc is in the middle of the yard.  Every now and then the SO looks you way to wave.  You are only in the yard to serve the SO.  When it is time for you to go through the gate to the outside world, there is no place to go, no one familliar.  You are indeed on the edge of starting over.  Just make sure you are ready, because there are many narc females ready to take advantage of your "neediness" right now.  Patz

[bunny]

there are many narc females ready to take advantage of your "neediness" right now.  Patz

She's right.

bunny

[Blue Topaz]

just to try and think about it now is to feel ashamed that you're not what people see, you're not what you think you should be, your life is a shell.

There is no need to feel ashamed about this at all (though I appreciate you feel what you feel).  One thing I can tell you for sure, is that most people are not what they allow others to see.  You would be astounded to know what goes on in people's private lives & inner selves, where no one would have an inkling.  Some of these things are so unbelievable and contrary to the professional, successful "put-together" outer selves that they show the world.

The individual list of things that people can hide from the world is extremely varied, and endless.  You see this all the time, working in counseling & therapy related professions, and it is very, very common for people to say that they feel like a fraud specifically because of outer & inner differences.

Some people actively try to make the outer look very different to compensate for a chaotic inner.

Everybody has their own stories related to their true selves, and most of the time we only share these things with few trusted people, if that.  I think it is natural to be more surface level with more people (that we aren't that emotionally close with)  than not.  Being more surface level can't help but portray a different image, but there is nothing we can do about that.

The stuff inside is just another aspect of us, and it is natural to have different aspects that make us up, and also keeping certain aspects private.  Many of them are no one's business.

As far not being where you, yourself think you should be...  I can relate to that in a  mega.... way.   I feel this way very strongly & I'm trying to see reasons why & trying to figure out what I can do about it.  Not easy, because when you figure out why, you still have to get through the hard feelings of whatever was always stopping you…

Which brings me to a big mental leap for me here: I'm thinking that since I engage in these half-assed relationships and turn down or run away from anything more substantial...maybe I can't do intimacy right now either, at least not until this huge emotional open wound heals some more?  

This is a big insight.  I came to the same conclusion for myself not that long ago.  I can see from my past relationship choices & what I tend to be attracted to now before I examine it   .  When I went further with that kind of thinking it made even more sense.   But what a surprise….    

It feels like if I had someone I knew I could really trust, I could heal that through our relationship.  But how it seems to work, is that trust is built within ones own self,  first…

Sometimes we do have our work cut out for us.

BT

[mum]

Longtire:
Everybody who responded to your "loneliness" concerns is right on the money. I mean who the hell are we to say, really?  The emotional healthy, intellegent, caring woman of your dreams may be around the corner.........(way down the street)...
But chances are probably greater that you will experience what most of us have....something not "real" as you hope for, but something much different, based on desperation and fear (of being alone).
Heal yourself first, or the gaping wound of a person you will show to/share with others will not produce a genuine, healthy relationship.
Keep the woman of your dreams in your dreams for a while.  It's a nice dream.....it will come true some time.  Just fall in love with you first.

[write]

me too. But I suspect it's not a bad thing...

I just sat talking to h about loneliness, he doesn't feel it but he said he felt bad for me.

When I hear him opening up and being honest I feel glad I stayed for so many years, and though it's not the relationship I wanted to do with him- at least it's real now.

[longtire]

patz, bunny and mum (in no particular order),
I hear what you're saying and recognize that it will be some while AFTER the divorce is final before I would be ready to even consider another relationship.  Being open to feel my loneliness, I'm aware that it has always been a presence in my life starting with my parents.  With all its flaws, I used this marriage as a way to feel less lonely.  That's another reason why I stayed for so long, waiting until I had enough inner resources to tolerate feeling those feelings and be OK.  In childhood, my loneliness felt like it would never go away and it still has that same "feel" to me.

The hardest thing for me right now is getting out of this relationship and untangling all the strings.  I know how to spot this kind of behavior now.  I'm working through my issues and feeling all these feelings that are tough for me to tolerate.  I'm not concerned about repeating history when I'm done with all this work.  The real question is, when will that be?

[bunny]

Hi longtire,

I think you will spot someone like your wife very quickly. Unfortunately, there are also messed-up women who don't behave like her at all. For instance, a woman who seems to answer all your prayers for depth, interest in discussing deep stuff, etc., may have some big problems but you would be so happy about this stuff that you won't notice. In other words, instability comes in various guises.

With that said, I think you can find someone special in future because you're quite a catch on many levels.

bunny

[mum]

Longtire: I can say from hard experience:  WHEN that time (new person, etc) will be should not be on your list of questions right now.
I agree with Bunny, you will be quite a catch.  Just be you for a while.  The "when" will come when you don't need it anymore.
It's easy to look for the salve of a new relationship for an open wound  but that's no way to get the real thing.  Been there, done that.  I ended up piling hurt upon hurt (wrong man upon wrong man) trying to avoid my pain.  Stay with your pain, lean into it, ask it what it wants you to learn.
When you are totally happy inside (and not just yahoo, I'm free of her happy) then all will come your way.  You are amazingly far on the road already, really.  Congratulate yourself, take yourself out on a date.

[Anonymous]

Longtire:

Bunny is right.  People will tell you just about anything on a first date.  We all put our best foot forward.  When you are infatuated with people you are still learning the "maps" that make them up.  You don't have time, nor does the other person to see the lumps under all that.  I think it takes about 2-3 years to really "know" someone to see the warts and all.  You will be a great catch, but just take time to know who you are and what you want, before hitching your star to another narc sheep in wolves clothing. Patz

[joannwllc]

Hi,

This is difficult, even for an introvert like me who can do tons of time alone.  But even us loners get lonely and antsy sometimes.  I usually telephone someone who I like for a short chat, take a walk, or even go window shopping.

Feeling one's feelings is a good thing, but too much can be, well, too much.  Take a break.  Do something fun.

Take Care, Jo