The Great White Whale of Forgiveness

[Anonymous]

Call me mudpuppy,
Just don't call me Ahab. Everyone remembers Ahab, right? Got his leg chomped off by a whale, wasted his life pursuing vengeance against the finny denizen of the deep and ended up tangled in his own lines of retribution strapped to the side of the big guy's tail. This was not a fluke.   Oh boy that was bad.... but I couldn't resist. Sorry, they say puns are the lowest form of humor.
Now if anyone has kept reading this far, my question is, what is the role of forgiveness in what we have all been through and how do we resist the desire for vengeance and going down to the icy depths bound to our own personal whale?
I have posted elsewhere about my "war" with my brother and my decision to pursue legal action against him for the damage he has done to me and my family. I struggled with this decision for over a year because I was afraid I was motivated by revenge rather than a desire for justice and compensation for damages suffered. After a lot of prayer and seeking of advice I came to the conclusion that until I had forgiven him, my motivation in a lawsuit would be primarily vengeful. Over the last year I have worked on this forgiveness and let me tell you in no uncertain terms, I'm glad I'm not a squirrel, because it was a tough nut to crack. In fact I'm still cracking it. Anyway here are my tentative conclusions.
It is easy to forgive someone who comes to us on bended knees begging pardon for the wrongs they've done. Unfortunately, almost none of us on this board have to worry about that happening any time soon. However, I believe it is important, extremely important, to forgive the N, NO MATTER WHAT. Which raises the next question; what is forgiveness?
Does it mean we forget what has happened? That seems like an obvious no. I don't think that is even possible, unless it is so bad our mind suppresses it. Does it mean we allow the abuse to go on and keep returning to it? That's even more obvious. Does it mean we repeatedly fantasize that they are normal until they once again prove otherwise. Heck no. (Sorry, that's about as bad as my language gets.)
So I think I know what it isn't. What is it.
I believe it is in the end about humility. (To any non Christians, excuse the following verse but it is my perspective.) "There is none who is righteous, no not one." Can any of us say we haven't hurt someone else,  responded in rage or looked the other way when a wrong was happening to someone else? I can't. When I forgive my brother, I am acknowledging my own sins. Are his sins larger than mine? I sure think so. Does that mean I get a pass on mine? I sure don't think so. Until I first recognize my own pettiness and faults I find it very hard to forgive anyone. Something to do with a plank in my own eye making it hard to remove the sliver in my neighbors, I guess. Once I have acknowledged my weaknesses it makes it possible to forgive others.
But still what is it? My dictionary says it is "to give up resentment against or the desire to punish." Thats tough. It is natural to want to punish evil, especially the insensate type we have faced, but its not our job. And we're not very good at it anyway. Just ask Ahab.
Before I began the process of forgiving him I wanted to punish him. I had an unhealthy anger that was directed at hurting him as much as he hurt me. Now, I am still angry. Very angry. I believe that means I have not fully forgiven him and it will probably take a very long time to do it completely. But I am less angry now than I was a year, a month or even a day ago. Of course if some new outrage occurs then I have to start over and get back to where I was before. But for me, the more I forgive the easier it is to do.
I can't believe anyone has gotten this far. If you have, my last question is, what is the point of forgiveness? It can't be for the Ns good; in the wacky world they live in they don't need forgiving. When we forgive them to their face they blink a couple of times and wonder what we're talking about or they just get ticked off at our insolence. It just doesn't compute to an N. "Forgive, forgive? I should forgive you for not appreciating my wonderfulness." That is NPD forgiveness.
If the abuser is unrepentent then I think foregiveness is solely for the benfit of the forgiver not the forgiven. At first the process of forgiveness shows us our own sins, then it reveals the depths of our own anger, and only then I believe it begins to diminish it. Chronic anger in any form is unhealthy. Without forgiveness can we ever get rid of it and get healthy?
Please allow me one last verse, again no offense intended toward any atheists out there. "If we do not forgive others God will not forgive us" That is the ultimate reason I have chosen to forgive.
Again, sorry for the length of this post. Its just an issue, maybe THE issue I have been dealing with. I don't know if I'm making sense but any thoughts pro, con or indifferent are appreciated.

mudpup

[longtire]

Mudpuppy, I have been facing this same issue in respect to my wife.  I too had to face my own actions which fed the problem and made it worse.  I needed to become aware of exactly what holding onto the anger and resentment was doing to me (health) and to those around me (relationships).  I believe that forgiveness of someone who has not asked for it IS for the forgiver.  But, I also believe that it then spills over to all the people in the forgiver's life.  How can you be a good spouse when you carry that anger around?  How can you be a good parent if all your energy is going into maintaining your rage?  How can you take time to meet new people if you're preoccupied with resentment, even if its on an unconscious level?  This was a profound understanding for me.  How many friends have I missed by holding onto that anger and resentment?  I'm trying not to miss any from now on.  

I have been working through a book called "Forgiveness is a Choice" by Robert Enright, Ph.D.  This alternates short reading and then time where you journal your thoughts, feelings, plans, etc. about a topic.  Its a progressive program to understand and forgive the person who has hurt you.  The book explains many of the same points that you do.  Forgiveness does not excuse the hurtful behavior.  Forgivesness does not mean to continue to put up with the hurtful behavior.  Forgiveness is an acknowledgement that something happened, otherwise what is there to need to forgive?

Even more importantly, the book explains that forgiveness is not deserved by the forgiven.  It is a gift freely given by the forgiver.  The forgiven need not accept this gift, but that makes it no less real or valid.  The truest way to forgive is to feel and accept the hurt, forgive the offender, understand or acknowledge the offender, and move to a place of at least moral love for the offender.  Pray for the offender and wish for good things for the offender.  I'm happy to say that I'm fortunate to be at this point in regards to my wife now.  I still have work to do, though.  I'm stuck at at giving her a gift which is meaningful to her and something I can honestly give willingly.

One of the hardest, but most rewarding, concepts for me was admitting that fundamentally I am no different than my wife.  I am capable of doing all of the hurtful things that she has done.  I am capable of doing all the hurtful things that anyone does.  There is no magical barrier preventing me from being a terrorist or murderer or rapist.  I have that capability.  I choose not to excercise those options.  Similarly, my wife is just as capable of doing good as I am, as Ghandi or Mother Teresa was.  (Choose your own examples.)  She has often chosen not to live up to that ability.  I have often chosen not to live up to my ability.  OUCH!  This is tough, but it has enabled me to feel like a valid member of the human race for the first time in my life.  There are no fundamental differences (barring chemical imbalance) between us, there is only choice.

As for the length, I understand.  See most of my posts! I seem to write long posts when I think and really short ones when I just want to give an emotional connection.  They're both good, just for different purposes.

[Anonymous]

mudpuppy,

I agree with many of the points you make, i.e., forgiveness is for the sinned-against more than for the sinner, and that the N doesn't appreciate or need forgiveness.

Here's where I veer off a bit. I believe you could pursue a lawsuit against your brother without forgiving him, and it would not be revenge. It's just doing what you gotta do. Your brother declared the war, not you. And it's natural that you'd feel outraged and pretty bitter about it. This isn't vengeance, though. It's just a reaction to some crap. Your lawsuit isn't intending to destroy him and kill him. It's just something you have to do for survival.

I believe in some situations, it's "Them or Us." Usually because "They" chose that route. But they won't pull me down if I can help it.

I don't really know what forgiveness is all about. I suppose it's something that "comes over you" when you've processed the whole situation and your mind/body accepts that this person has pretty major limitations. You may not want to see them ever again, but you accept that they are who they are. If they need to have a restraining order, a lawsuit, the police called, that's life. It's not revenge. It's just consequences.



bunny

[Anonymous]

Thanks longtire and bunny.
To bunny,
I found that when I was contemplating suing my brother last year prior to forgiving him I was becoming like him ie; vindictive. Wallowing in the desire to hurt him. I also found I was less pleasant to be around at home. Now, even though I'm taking him to court I am much more at peace. For me motive mattered, for others maybe not so much.

Mud

[Brigid]

Mud,
I would equate your lawsuit with the divorce proceedings some of us are going through or have been through.  It is long, drawn out, often ugly, depressing, anxiety-ridden, expensive, but I think a necessary part of the cleansing process.  Do I want revenge through this process?  Absolutely!!  It is impossible to hurt him emotionally, so financially is the only route available.  

Forgiveness is something I struggle with daily.  I am a Christian and know that it is something we are expected to do.  However, I do feel it should only be given to someone who is truly sorry for what they've done.  This is basically impossible for someone who has NPD and they would never acknowledge that they have done anything wrong.  The only thing I can do at this point is be less angry, or at least try to replace some of the anger with a more positive emotion for my own well-being.  Maybe some sort of forgiveness will come down the line, but mostly I think I will just be grateful that he is out of my life.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

Brigid,
Just stepped in for a minute. Thanks for your thoughts. Forgiving the unrepentent is a hard thing, that's why I called it a process not an event. You sound like you're where I was a year and a half ago.

This is probably small comfort, but as they say "Time heals all wounds and it wounds all heels." With your divorce you have a chance for healing and a new life, he has a deepening hole of blackness to look forward to.
God bless you and just remember where your strength comes from. You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

mudpup

[Brigid]

Mudpup,  
Thanks for the words of encouragement.  My therapist is an Episcopal priest and prays for me daily.  I have many friends praying for me as well as my own priest.  I feel those prayers and know that God is listening based on how my life continues to move forward in a positive way.  I pray daily for God to help me move on and feel better and to watch over my children through this process.  It is a process that will hopefully have an end some day.  I know he will never be completely out of my life, but I just want him out of my mind.   I look forward to being where you are.

Brigid

[joannwllc]

Hi All,

Forgiveness is very difficult.  I sometimes think we know it more by how we feel than by any definition. I believe we give ourselves a great gift when we forgive. Anger, resentment and pain take up a lot of time and energy. I think forgiveness requires an acceptance that the person or situation is what it is.  We cannot change them or their behavior. We can only change our response to it.

As an example, I think I was always hoping to receive from my mother what I needed as a child.  I didn't get it then and I now it is too late. I finally accept this. Our relationship will never be what either of us would like it to be because she did not fill my needs, and I don't fill hers because I can't give her the admiration she would like.

How one gets to this point is a process that I am not able to fully articulate. "Acceptance" is the best I can do. It is a bit like mourning a death. One goes through a similar process. Once the process is complete, one is free to move forward with their lives.  It is sad, it is a loss, but there is hope at the end of the process.

Good luck, Jo

[serena]

I prefer the term 'acceptance' to 'forgiveness'.  I have always felt that my Mother is not aware of the sheer scale of her Narcissism.  Myself and my three sisters have been to hell and back both as children and as adults.  Now, if I thought she meant for us to be so psychologically damaged, I would consider her a monster.  I don't.....  I honestly believe she thinks she is 'perfect' - a wonderful mother with four ungrateful children.

Forgiveness implies a two-way street in my book and I don't forgive her.  I do 'accept' that she is delusional and self-obsessed and that knowledge has set me free.

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

Mudpuppy wrote:  

It is easy to forgive someone who comes to us on bended knees begging pardon for the wrongs they've done.

This might seem easy but may not always be so.  It all depends on how much harm has been caused, imo.

I think forgiveness is necessary for the forgiver, in order to return to the healthiest possible emotional state.  Forgiving has definate benefits.

It takes all of the power away from the forgivee.
They are no longer able to upset the forgiver.   What's done is done type of thing and it no longer causes anger or resentment.

Forgiveness gives us a sense of peace and acceptance (as has been mentioned).  Not that we accept the behaviour, simply that we accept the person as human and fallible etc.

And it allows us to move on, to stop focussing on our anger and resentment, and stop experiencing the effects of that anger and resentment.

In order to forgive, I really believe we must be free of anger and resentment.  These are feelings that need to be released.  As long as we hold onto them, we will suffer from certain effects and find it impossible to forgive.

re forgiveness, Mudpuppy wrote:

What is it.
I believe it is in the end about humility.

True we are all capable of great misdeeds.  True we all make choices.  True none of us are perfect (except those who behave Nish--heehee).
True......I've taken this humility thing to heart and feel it deep inside of myself.....I know that I have sinned too, in my life, and will do so again.

Doesn't rid me of a rip of anger or resentment toward those who have hurt me though, thinking all that.

The key, for me, is empathy.

Until I decide to totally empathize with those who have harmed me, I will not forgive.

It is soooo hard to put oneself in another's shoes and imagine what it must be like to.....be that person, to have made the choices that person made....to act like that.

"It sucks to be you".  I want to say.

If I really empathize.......I do believe it does suck.  And next....I feel pity and sympathy......how sick the forgivee is.....how pathetic......how lost......how fragile.......how incredibly it must suck to be that person.

If I try and try to somehow get into that person's place and try to really be where they are...in my head, and then imagine what they feel, what they think, I begin to see things from their point of view and to really understand.  Not an easy task, but once this is accomplished....it makes all the difference in my decision to forgive.

And it is a decision.

Whether they are sorry or not......I can choose to truly forgive.  It's a selfish thing for me.  I want that most healthy emotional state possible and I know there is such a state, for me, because I've been there before, in regard to other forgivees.

But...like many here......I'm still struggling to get there.

GFN

[Anonymous]

GFN,

Mudpuppy wrote: Quote:
It is easy to forgive someone who comes to us on bended knees begging pardon for the wrongs they've done.

GFN replied;

This might seem easy but may not always be so. It all depends on how much harm has been caused, imo

You're right. I should have said it is easier if they ask for forgiveness, not easy.

Doesn't rid me of a rip of anger or resentment toward those who have hurt me though, thinking all that.

The key, for me, is empathy.

Until I decide to totally empathize with those who have harmed me, I will not forgive.

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. When I acknowledge I'm a bum, maybe not as big a bum as whoever done me wrong, but a bum nonetheless, then I can truly believe that there but for the grace of God go I. This is especially true when the N is a sibling. I often wonder why him and not me. When I realize it is sheer grace that I don't have this affliction then I can empathize and love the N and pray for him. I  believe I can simultaneously be furious at his actions but forgive him personally for his behavior. Even an N has worth as a human being despite his behavior.
I agree about getting into their shoes as well. Before I discovered NPD I had a hard time forgiving him because his behavior seemed completely volitional. I still believe if he fought and struggled he could choose good over evil but I now understand the inner war which is raging inside him much better, which makes it easier for me to sympathize.

serena,

Now, if I thought she meant for us to be so psychologically damaged, I would consider her a monster. I don't..... I honestly believe she thinks she is 'perfect' - a wonderful mother with four ungrateful children.

I think my brother is somewhere in between. I don't think he wants to destroy people to protect himself. But I know he does not believe the facade he projects. I have glimpsed behind the mask and it is an insecure little twerp who is constantly terrified the world is going to find out what a little twerp he really is.
The encouraging thing for us is we can, to different degrees, recover and seperate ourselves from them. They can never seperate from themselves. They're in hell and they're not coming back.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

Hi Mudpuppy and all:

Mudpuppy wrote:

You're right. I should have said it is easier if they ask for forgiveness, not easy.

Thanks for saying this.  For me, this is true and I only pointed it out because I used to think it would be easy until I actually experienced it.  It's not.  But you are right too......it is easier if they ask for forgiveness.  At least you know they are aware that there is something to forgive.

I believe I can simultaneously be furious at his actions but forgive him personally for his behavior. Even an N has worth as a human being despite his behavior.

Oh!  Don't I agree with you too!!  What a roller coaster of emotions!  Flipping around from one to the other.   The good thing is.....you are so human, Mudpuppy.  You're not a saint or a monster and you recognize that he isn't either.  It still sucks to go through it all though eh?

I often wonder why him and not me.

Why indeed?  You're both suffering.....just from different things.

They're in hell and they're not coming back.

What a horrible, terrifying, hopeless place to be.

GFN

[Anonymous]

I am a Christian too.  

Every day I struggle with forgiving X N.  Sometimes I feel as though I am able to do so and then in a blink of an eye I find myself consumed with anger and feelings of wanting to exact revenge on him.  When there are periods of quiet on his end I am at peace.  Unfortunately, these times are few and far between.  This past year has been especially bad.  

Should I take mercy on him? Sometimes I feel I should.  Other times I feel I shouldn't.  

Many days I tell myself that in the grand scheme of things I am only here on Earth for such a brief time and I need to release all of the anger X N causes me.  It's so hard to do though since he has been continually targeting the children and I.  

It's proven to be a rollercoaster ride for me that doesn't appear to be stopping any time soon.  

I pray that I can reach that point when I will be able to fully forgive but I will never forget the h@ll he has put me and the children through.  

Mia

[Anonymous]

I hear ya Mia:

It is definately a process.....forgiving.

I think of it as doing myself a favour.  I am the one who does not like feeling angry, so often and resentful.  I like it so much better when I feel relaxed and calm (and ofcourse even better...happy!!).

So the thought that helps me most to go ahead and release the anger/resentment/desire to set that person's nose-hairs on fire (heehee) is that by releasing my anger....I take away their power.

To me....I'm giving that person all the power over me and sort of submitting to their nasty ways, when I just feel angry all the time.  So by deciding to let it out, get rid of it, really feel it...whatever...I am back in charge of me and I like that better.  Plus once it's gone...I feel more like myself...not some creation of their's (if that makes any sence).

I sure can't forgive someone I'm angry with so there's no sence trying.

I know what you mean though because if the person keeps repeating the behavour and causing me more grief.....it's really hard to continuously purge the effects and if they have done so, over and over and over and there are zillions of behaviours to forgive......it will take time and effort...a lot more than say....a one time incident.

Should I take mercy on him? Sometimes I feel I should. Other times I feel I shouldn't.

Doing so helps me feel less angry.  If I think...this person is sick......I wouldn't be angry with him/her if it was brain cancer.  I'd still be angry but at the situation, possibly the behaviour...but not the person.  So what's the diff?  Sick is sick, isn't it?

For me....it's separating the behaviour from the soul who is behaving badly....and from the disease.....that helps me empathize, have mercy and forgive.

That.....and the fact that I'm no saint myself.

GFN

[Stormchild]

Hi all

I'm not sure if this belongs on this thread or not - if it should be on another one let me know  

I have been struggling with the issue of forgiveness all my life... I've found that it's easier for me to forgive someone if I am in a position where they can do me no further harm. Because then there's an end to it and I can start healing, and they can't 'get' me anymore.

Forgiving an abuser in the context of ongoing abuse is something I've never mastered.

Here's the bit that might belong somewhere else. I've been sitting here thinking, and I cannot recall a single instance of anyone ever asking me to forgive them. At least, not one that wasn't window dressing. Not one where things actually changed and got better.

Now my homework assignment is to go examine my soul and see how many times I have apologized and asked forgiveness and made a change in my own behavior to avoid offending similarly in future.

But what do you do if it turns out you really have been more sinned against than sinning? Talk about wrestling with an angel.

Stormchild