Things I wish I could tell my ex

[Stormchild Guesting]

Mudpup said:

"The unlovable cannot give the loving validation. Giving, especially when you don't receive, is one of the most valid and selfless things there is..."

That is so true! Thanks, mudpup.

Lara, what you wrote to start this thread was incredible. Chandra picked this up too but it bears repeating

"I wish I had not confided my deepest secrets to you. I told you personal things about people in my life who were very special to me;and I shared things that nobody else knows about me. I would like to tell you now that you were not a person worthy of receiving these confidences."

It's so sad that all the time we're loving them and revealing ourselves, trying to get close to them, they're just looking for different ways to use and harm us. Whether or not they're conscious of it.

Stormchild

[Anonymous]

Mud; perhaps I can speak for Mia (?) as well. It's ok for you to mention that....it makes us feel like you "get" our situation.

Mum
Thanks for including me.

Mudd
Thanks for understanding.

Mia

[2cents]

Dear All,

Lots and lots to think about. What New Day says is true I think. They can't emulate the positive so they lash out. But this is the damage talking to them. Emulating is about reflecting and mirroring, and N's have distorted/distorting mirrors in place. And I'm positive your ex WAS jealous of you.

Brigid, I aslo believe that your ex understood all too well what was better than him, and in his own pathetic way knew that your only chance of happiness was without him. I don't think people, even N's are unaware of what they are doing or feeling, and when they devalue YOU they also know they are devaluing THEMSELVES. I think they devalue themselves for a reason - to get YOU to want to be rid of THEM.

If someone is damaging you, and you have the power/ opportunity (not always possible I know) walk away. Each person has to be responsible for his own actions and his own path to happiness. I just think that sometimes with N's they are so overwhelmed by their own powerlessness that they choose to walk away from themselves and from the things that just might make them happy. Their fear of loving, kind wonderful people is REAL and imo visceral. Love sends a powerful message to the damage: you, not the person, are what's wrong. But the N is used to listening to the damage, and believes that he IS the damage. Sometimes I think the N is actually addicted to the damage and NOT the supply. Again, just a few thoughts/observations. Would love to hear what you guys think?

[Brigid]

2 Cents,

I have to say that you really make me think about things that I haven't been able to face.

I think they devalue themselves for a reason - to get YOU to want to be rid of THEM.

As he started to unload all the secrets and lies--pornography and masturbation addiction, the affair, etc., I think he hoped I would throw open the door and push him out, saying never come back.  I, however, did the opposite and opened my arms to hold him tighter while pleading with him to let me help him get through it.  I think for that short period of time he opened himself up to expose the damage in order to get me to make the choice of ending the relationship rather than him having to do it.  When that plan did not work, he had to go to Plan B which was to devalue me then walk away with the hopes that my anger and humiliation would keep me from ever wanting him back.  (thank you 2 cents for that revelation)

He has covered up the damage since then and now denies that he has any addictions.  He avoids seeing me or talking to me because I know the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth (at least as much as he was willing to share).  I think that every time he sees me, the damage is looking back at him and that is not something he cares to face.

LM,

Personally I think "dehumanizing" someone can hinder ones own healing.

I don't disagree with this at all, but as part of the healing process, the pain that was caused must be put somewhere and dealt with in small bits.  When you have loved, honored, trusted, and had children with someone who then turns around and destroys you (or attempts to), you must have a way to explain that to yourself.  Initially, the only way for me was to make him into something evil--otherwise, how could he have done it.  I had such a hard time coming to terms with what he was as opposed to what I had seen him as for 22 years.  Rather than putting too much of the blame on myself for having those blinders on, I had to dehumanize him.  I am starting to move away from that now and even though I still have a lot of anger, I am ready to start having some compassion.

Ok, that is my 2 cents worth for now as I am still processing.

Brigid

[mum]

Wow, 2 cents, you've really got me thinking.  Before my ex left on his last long out of state trip, before we broke up, we knew our marriage wasn't doing too well, so we made a "deal".  Whatever happened, we decided neither one of us would get involved with anyone else, as that would END THE MARRIAGE completely.
And what did he do?  Exactly.  Like telling a mischevious toddler NOT to touch something ....or else.  Then he acted shocked that I wanted out, as in how could you leave me....don't I get another (9th ) chance?

[Anonymous]

I think they devalue themselves for a reason - to get YOU to want to be rid of THEM.

Sounds like the "hot potato" deal. The N in this scenario cannot take responsibility for the damage and pain he's inflicted. He cannot imagine how to repair the damage either (esp since he won't take responsibility for any of it). If he sees a relationship heading for the rocks, he makes sure that the other person looks like the "bad guy" who dumps him - he tosses them the 'hot potato' of relationship wreckage. It's incredibly distorted but that's how he has to set it up.

Their fear of loving, kind wonderful people is REAL and imo visceral.

I agree!

Love sends a powerful message to the damage: you, not the person, are what's wrong. But the N is used to listening to the damage, and believes that he IS the damage. Sometimes I think the N is actually addicted to the damage and NOT the supply. Again, just a few thoughts/observations. Would love to hear what you guys think?

You're definitely onto something. The N cannot deal with what happened to them earlier. Their neural systems have been hardwired a certain way by now. They can't process the trauma and the defenses created by it, can't manage the fear, the loss, can't go there. So there's a lot of acting out. They are addicted to the defenses they use, to the acting out, child-like ideas of entitlement, etc. The supply is one of many things they're addicted to.

This is why a person in relationship with an N cannot fix the N with love, with caring, with intimacy. None of that is going to have a sustained or positive effect because the N's deepest layers of vulnerability will reject this stuff immediately as life-threatening. At one time, they offered vulnerability to caregivers and were traumatized. This is how their psyches decided to deal with it. And they didn't mature into better emotional defenses but froze at the child-like ones. Telling them about their emotional defenses, however, doesn't work at all. They can't be reached by intellect, by analyzing them, by giving them information. That only shames and retraumatizes them. There is only one way to reach some narcissists, which is to empathize with their whining and see it for what it is, their longing/yearning for someone to really understand them. It starts by gaining their trust by understanding what the whining is about. However this is draining and no one can put up with it except a good therapist.

I know there are people posting here who were also traumatized and did not end up utterly selfish, manipulative, deceptive, vindictive, entitled, etc. Children deal with trauma in different ways. The Ns neural systems developed this particular constellation of defenses.


bunny

[Anonymous]

Sometimes I think the N is actually addicted to the damage and NOT the supply. Again, just a few thoughts/observations. Would love to hear what you guys think?

2cents, the way I understand it is that they are "addicted" to not seeing the damage, the damage that was done to them and the damage they do to others.  I think they are also "addicted" to seeing the damage as not damage, and also to see "normal" caring as damage, that's why things seem so backwards and crazy with them.

[Anonymous]

The above was me LM.

[2cents]

Arghh! How do you qoute on this thing?!? Bunny, I think you're spot on about the hardwiring, and how the N's see positive things as "life-threatening".  It makes them aware of things they don't want to face/feel, and talking to them about their responses retraumatises them. N's mistrust their own responses to things and seem to constantly battle to find the 'right" response instead of their OWN response becasue as you say when they offered vulnerability (re: real responses imo) to caregivers they were traumatised, trauma being the operative word here...

LM (again,WHY can't I quote?!?) also on the money:

" they are addicted to seeing the damage as not damage, and also to see 'normal' caring as damage..."

[Brigid]

2Cents,
Since someone was kind enough to teach me how to use the quote thingy, I will pass it along.  Use your left mouse clicker to highlight what you want to quote.  Use the right clicker to copy.  Move the cursor to the point where you want to insert the quote and right click paste.  Highlight what you have inserted and click quote from the menu above.  Voila!

Bunny, LM and 2 cents,

All good information and analysis.  I'm learning so much, but also having to get very real with my feelings.

Brigid

[2cents]

Ta for the tip Brigid! Hope you're okay,

2cents

[sleepyhead]

.Maybe the conflict goes something like this: I am empty and worthless inside. One day I come across someone wonderful, and I WANT TO BE LIKE THAT PERSON. But I can't, because I am full of SHAME. THIS is what I have to protect and hide. The non-damaged parts of me RESPOND to you (which leaves me feeling exposed, vulnerable and fake) but the damaged parts shout louder and longer. I am so used to accepting, internalising and living with the DAMAGE that ANYTHING that feels like HEALING sets up a conflict in me. I don't have the energy to address both you AND the damage. Eventually I will give in to the damage. Because the damage speaks louder and longer than anything good

Ouch! I have just begun to realize this and it hurts like hell. Actually that is not true, I have known it for a long time when it comes to my exNbf and the woman I called my best friend for over a decade, and I can feel sympathy for them even if they were aware of what they were doing. However, I am in the process of taking the blinders off when it comes to my mother, and the only way I can feel sympathy for her is if she was/is completely unaware of what she was doing... But I suppose I have to go through this pain to be free, to not be hurt by her anymore.

Lara: great idea! You have to get rid of the poison that he injected you with so that it won't rot you from the inside, and dumping the poison here enables us all to use it as an antitoxin, like you use a snakes venom to make the antidote, so we become just that little bit more healthy. Thanks and good luck!

[Guest_NewDay]

2 cents, you said:

N's are unaware of what they are doing or feeling, and when they devalue YOU they also know they are devaluing THEMSELVES. I think they devalue themselves for a reason - to get YOU to want to be rid of THEM.

Many of us indicate that the N creates an intolerable environment to live in, and therefore, eventhough we are not the ones who want to end the relationship, we tend to be the one to ultimately "leave" b/c we are left with no choice.  It seems rare that a N person will leave, and even if they are the one who leaves, it is after making life horrible, having someone lined up to go to right away, or blaming the other person for having to leave.  
All of this is a devaluing process.

I so agree that when a person feels a lack of worth, they have to squish everyone around them as a survival mechanism, to make an attempt to feel like they have some, any ground to stand on.  

In my case, I once found some "notes" my exN kept from therapy.  He had made a list and on the list was "At my core I am valueless, and I must hide this from people"  AND  "That no one will like me when they get to know me better".  Those are direct quotes.  I was shocked when I first saw those notes (I was cleaning out some boxes of junk and found them, I wasn't snooping).  
Amazing, huh?  

At the beginning of when all hell broke loose, I hit the anger button like nobody's business.  But after I calmed down, I went in to compassion mode, sometimes I think it was to protect myself b/c being *that* angry was so destructive and horrible.   I actually felt sorry for him for a very long time.  Now I don't feel any of that.  I am taking care of me.  Deep inside, my belief is that he has not changed (he married the OW), he just found new N-supply and if she gives him a feeling of worth, then so be it.  I do not think he will ever change systemically.   I do not see him as having any more joy in his life now than before.  I do not see him as experiencing life any differently.  He simply took out the checklist and picked up where he left off with me.  

I appreciate what bunny said when she talked about "hard wiring" because that is an excellent way to put it.  This is a systemic disorder.  When my exN said "I've changed, I'm different now" ... what I took that to mean is that he is now living someone else's life (the woman he married), he now mirrors her, gets new supply from her, and feels some sense of worth from her.  That is all it means.  The hard wiring and the struggle remain the same.

And Lara -- loved your letter.  I am impressed that you have the ability to write so much, so concisely, so well.  I relate all to well to the feeling the exN does not deserve to know or hear our innermost feelings.  So much trust goes into imparting those thoughts and feelings.  They certainly do not deserve to be trusted.  I wish you well on your healing path.

Thank you again.  All of you are simply *the best* and you help me so much I could never thank you enough.
Love to you and have a beautiful day where ever you are,
New Day

[robinm]

Dear Lara -

It's so weird that I just happened to stumble upon your letter.  My relationship with my N just ended a few weeks ago (hopefully for the last time!)  I have only recent learned of his disorder (been misdiagnosed for years as bi-polar) and the only thing that has kept me sane since then is reading and learning everything i can about it.  You have no idea - well actually you do - what a feeling it was to discover that I am not losing my mind -   and knowing I'm not alone has brought so much comfort to me (not that I enjoy other peoples misery - I leave that to the ex!)    I still have a hard time comprehending that someone I love so much (or anyone for that matter)  could be so evil.

Anyway, I was just sitting here, thinking of all the things that I want to say to him.  I swear to God you read my mind!!  You wrote exact thoughts down that I was thinking.   I know that the frustratiing part is - we will never get to say it because they will only thrive on our pain, twist  everything around that we said,  somehow make it our fault and end up hurting us more in the end.    And I found that talking about it to people that have never experienced this cannot possibly understand the pain.  So to have a place to vent where someone can understand exactly the torment we have been put through somehow helps to make it a little better.  Having discovered this place, I have a feeling I will be spending alot of time here.

Thank you for your letter - and if anyone has any great ideas on how to get your heart to accept what your head knows - I would really, really appreciate that!!

Thanks again - Robin

[Lara]

Dear Robin,
Thank you! It makes such a difference to me as well to know that other people understand, however confused and changing the feelings are.

Can't write more at the moment, but just wanted to say 'Welcome!'

Sincerely,
Lara.