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STEALTH RADAR: Was that Nism I just experienced?

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rosencrantz:
Interesting and thought-provoking points you raise!

Re compliements : I suppose that we don't actually have a right to comment on other people - for good or ill - unless they have asked for our intervention.  We have made an assumption that they need our input if we do.  We've asked them to join an interaction in which we have the upper hand - that quickly becomes patronising. And it's not a 'clean' (ie without emotional strings) communication if we expect to get a particular transaction out of it (eg wanting to be thanked or appreciated for our intervention).

Life is very complicated!!

The purpose of the 'sorry' is reparation.  I guess the teacher is trying to show the child how to make an effective reparation rather than just 'by rote' using the word 'sorry' without any meaning.

Similarly, I suspect that 'explaining' is teacher-speak for 'we don't want children to feel guilty so we don't put blame on their shoulders'???  Did the Supervisor have a duty of reparation for the actions of the boy?  It gets more complicated when children are involved...but under normal circumstances, I'm not sure we believe we owe a duty of reparation for someone else's actions - or do we??
R

seeker:
Thanks Rosencranz,

Your reply on compliments, etc., was enlightening.  I'm trying to become more aware of how this type of exchange comes off.  :)

Just to clarify, I found the K teacher's approach very helpful in pointing out that apologies are meant to repair relationships, not let one off the hook to do it again.  That was a point made in the article as well.  So I just wanted to add a specific example.

In addition, the playground incident was an example of another outcome.  The supervisor indeed felt it was his place to enter the situation.  He did want to make my daughter feel better.  I credit him for that.  However, there was no follow through (though plenty of opportunity) to immediate point out to the other child what went wrong and how to address it.  Respect and appropriate conflict resolution is something that is emphasized a lot at our school.  Instead, the message was that since X "can't help it" it was okay.  The result, unfortunately, is that X doesn't learn to control himself.  Instead, X learns that he gets away with bad behavior and learns himself that he can't be expected to control himself.  
So it kinda pushed my button.

Are we not discussing in various ways, what is acceptable behavior and what is not?  Sometimes I think one message that comes out in our culture (U.S.) over and over again is, if you have a great excuse, if you have been a victim of something terribly awful, you have license to treat other people any way you want.  The world owes you, should make it up to you.  In other words, entitlement.  Caroline Myss courageously speaks out on this point in her book, Why Some People Don't Heal.  "I hurt you because I have been hurt."  And we end up apologizing to them!   :shock: Their wounds give them power.  And isn't this what we are all struggling with?  What victims are entitled to is compassion and understanding, yes, but not a blank check or exemption from socially accepted ways of treating each other.

When I read Viktor Frankl's Man' Search for Meaning, a point that jumped out at me was when he and others were finally released from a concentration camp, one former prisoner started destroying some crops in the field they were walking through.  Frankl stopped him, saying something to the effect, just because we were abused doesn't give us the right to start abusing or destroying.  Two wrongs do not make it right.  It's very interesting reading and I highly recommend it to all.  Sometimes it takes a lot of courage not to hit back.  (Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird comes to mind.)

Well, gotta get off my soapbox.  Thanks again, S.

Anonymous:
Yup life is complex and ignorance is bliss only until I know better.

You're welcome for the post.  I am inspired to contribute and have gained so much from your contributions as well.  

About apologies:

I've been mulling this stuff over too - learn as we go....the play ground example reminded me of some things I too began to notice after reading the article.  The "playground" that started me thinking though has only two children and little supervision most of the time - I live there.   :oops:

TRUTH:
I feel that the explanation of intent is good for building empathy & for "victims" to learn to not take the actions of others too personally.  (as you noted Seeker the victim role can become just as imploded as that of the perpetrator, perhaps that is the direct route to becoming a perpetrator?) AND intent is all about the perpetrator if it isn't balanced with consequence - it is unilateral empathy, which is half-arsed.

& CONSEQUENCES:
I agree that undoing is good & what I have noticed lately is the distinction between what is being "undone" - subtle difference, dramatic impact:
1) undoing negative attention by a quick and false apology.  Escapism supreme.
      2) undoing being caught (denial/lies etc.)
      3) undoing the loss of NS supply. (the woops I lost what I liked/needed got to regain supply, get back in favor)
      4) NOT doing anything but:
     A) FIRST feeling (ah that is the stumbling block for many of us & a chronic one for the N) the damage done to the other person. Generally, if I've hurt someone then there is some understanding I don't have - even if it is only that I don't understand their misunderstanding what I did. [/list:u]  
     B)THEN working to right the wrong even if it means not necessarily getting back in favor or any sort of external goal for righting the wrong but instead an internal sense of integrity with the world, the relationship, social ecology. [/list:u]

Any of this ring true?

P.S. I love all of these names (Seeker, Rosencrantz, Nightsong...it is like the Native American names or perhaps all names used to be - meaningful descriptions.  I hope to graduate soon from Echo.)

Anonymous:
Well i was guest and didn't realize it again.

I also meant to say that seems to me the number four version of apology is the best and most intensive in effort and impact.

ECHO

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