New to this and positively lost

[bunny]

mud,

It's fine if the wife tells her husband in no uncertain terms that the marriage is being threatened. My experience of therapy is that the therapist will do the "mudslinging" (sorry, couldn't help it) re: the mother and the enmeshment so the wife doesn't have to go through that minefield. Because she will step on a mine.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Daisy:

Welcome to this board.  I could write chapter and verse on my now deceased MIL.  The queen of manipulation and demanding to be center of attention.  She was truly an N.  When my husband and I first got married she was about  50.  My MIL had this notion that when I married her son that all she had to do was quit work and let me wait on her.  She was perfectly able to take of herself.  My heart goes out to you with her living across the street.  This sounds like an outtake from "Everyone Loves Raymond" sitcom.  

Your husband is really the only one who is going to be able to set some serious limits.  If he doesn't you will contantly be playing second fiddle to her music.  He can start with the phone calls.  I got an answering machine and just let it fill up.  She would call constantly, wanting to know about our finances, how much money we spent on our son, was jealous of the attention spent on our son instead of her.........on and on.  I agree that some counseling might be in order for the both of you in order to deal with her and the impact it is having.  Just my 2c.  Patz

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone

I want to first thank you ALL so much for your supportive posts and kind words.  I really never expected this.  It made me want to cry to see so many people who truly understand what hell I am wading through right now.

Despite the small disputes on opinion, each of you seriously made very good points and I saw where you were coming from.  I'm sure it wasn't easy to deduce what I needed from my few paragraphs of information.

How about I clarify a little.  

I, personally, am in therapy (just), without my husband.  Not necessarily because he doesn't believe in it, but I wanted to go NOW and see a woman who has helped me in the past to see what insight and coaching help she could give me on how to deal with my MIL if my H could not.  I will most likely bring up to my H that if my counselor wants to see us both, would he come?  I think he would.  Skeptically, though, because I am sure he feels he'd be attacked, but I like this woman and I believe she wouldn't do that.  I've only seen her once on this issue (last week) and she was very understanding of just how difficult confronting his mother and changing his life long habits are going to be.  

It's thin line.  I am like one poster and think a good husband shouldn't need therapy to realize the havoc his warped relationship with his mother is having on his marriage, BUT ... I can also see that if this is all they have ever known, it may actually take a bucket of ice water, threats or a counselor.  With my H it has taken shouting, crying, stomping of feet, and me actually telling him that if we don't get this resolved it will be the end of our marriage -- that it is that serious to me.  He does realize how she is, but he doesn't always seem to see "what" things she does are warped and not warped.  Although he is willing to change for the sake of our marriage, what frustrates me is that instead of seeing that something his mother is doing is reaking havoc, I have to tell him "that's %ucked up!!"  I have to point out the wierdness and that is scary, otherwise he'd blithely sail on as if nothing were wrong.  Oooooog.    

My biggest concern is how to approach this woman, either of us, on the issues she's causing in the immediate term.  The first annoyance, is the constant stream of phone calls, her needing him for this or that, since she is still settling into her house, she's needing lots of "things and help."  Or, she'll call for crap like "Hi, I'm at the grocery store?  Need anything?"  NO ... we aren't roommates, we don't need anything and if we did, dammit we'd get it ourselves like we have for the last three years before you moved here!  ARGH!   One would say, don't answer the phone, but she'd just keep calling, or worse, walk over.  I want her to STOP IT -- before I commit bodily harm.    Second, is her reliance on my H to begin with.  She has never been like this until she decided to move in across the street.  It was months sometimes before my H ever heard from her, now it's constant.  She treats him like surrogate husband, like he's her husband to bounce trouble off of, to fix all her issues and maintenance problems, to drive her around and shop with her -- it's maddening!!!  And he does it!

She is currently sort of keeping to herself because she has a business associate staying with her at her house until next week, so this past weekend she left us alone for the most part, but she still called a lot wanting him to "do" something.  How do you bring up something like this with a person like that? I get the feeling it will NEVER go over well, but she has to be told that he is not her husband and she needs to find other ways of getting her problems solved.   My H did okay this weekend trying to fend her off.  He told her no, several times, but that didn't stop her from continuing to try again and again.

I could go on forever.  I just have never deal with such a selfish person in my life.  It just astounds me and pisses me off.  She contradicts herself in many ways and it makes me want to scream.  She pleads that moving here is all about my daughter, but she ignores her until it's convenient for her do so.  I so don't believe it's because of my daughter.  She has other grandkids, and didn't move there or even want to.  But her daughter with those grand kids doesn't put up with her bullshit like my H does, so I think the whole reason she's here is because she thinks she's got a built in husband and personal slave.  The grand daughter is just the icing on the cake.

Anyway, thank you again everyone.  I really has meant a lot to me!  Just wish I had something to offer back to any of you, which clearly at this point, I know NOTHING.  

[Anonymous]

Hi Daisy,
This is just my two cents, maybe only one lousy penny's worth, but I think it would be a complete waste of time to approach your MIL with any suggestion that she alter her behavior. Almost certainly, she will use any confrontation or ultimatum for her to change against you and your hubby. She almost certainly won't change, period.
Your husband has to change. He is probably the only one of the two who can change. He at some point has to recognize his role in the relationship they have and lay down the law to her.
She ain't going away voluntarily. Any attempt to make her change her behavior will just be a challenge for her to increase her manipulation of your marriage. I know its sick but thats the way they are.

mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

It may be optimal for your individual therapist to refer both of you to a different therapist for couples therapy. Reason: you are already her client and she has to be "on your side" otherwise your own therapy will be threatened. Also your husband may reasonably feel she is biased in your favor. If she thinks she can see you both, then okay.

A good husband might need therapy! Even good people sometimes need help. My H is a very good guy but he absolutely needed therapy to deal with his mother. I admire and respect him for admitting it and doing something about it.

what frustrates me is that instead of seeing that something his mother is doing is reaking havoc, I have to tell him "that's %ucked up!!"  I have to point out the wierdness and that is scary, otherwise he'd blithely sail on as if nothing were wrong.

This is not good because it makes you look harshly critical and resemble a nagging mother. This is why I say it's best to let the therapist do the confronting.

How to deal with her? FIRMNESS. Decide on some boundaries and firmly enforce them. Do not show her how emotional you feel inside. That just excites her. If she sees a boring, bland person who is very firm, she has nothing to work with. The worst thing you can do is show her how annoyed, angry, frustrated, etc., you are. Give her zero information about your internal state. If she calls and asks what you want from the store, say in a bored voice, "oh, nothing, thanks." She will think twice after a few tries as this will be quite dull to her.

My MIL also treated my H as a surrogate husband. He accepted this role and didn't question it until a therapist  or two confronted him on it. With the therapist's help he became much more willing to say, "I can't do it." Many times he'd lie and say he was sick. That's okay! Whatever works.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi Daisy and welcome here:

I haven't much to add but I just want to say that I feel for you.   I'm glad you have a therapist to speak with and good for you for realizing your need and doing something about it.  It's gotta help.  Otherwise, I pretty much agree with what people are telling you.....that your husband is the person who can change the outcome.

Personally, I'd be tempted to move to timbucktwo, but that may not be possible for you and your family.  I hope your hubby will at least consider going to counselling with you.  It might make all the difference.

and Crookedtree:

"your mother is not a mother, she is a syndrome!"

           

It would be too funny if it wasn't probably so dang true!!!

GFN

[Anonymous]

Personally, I'd be tempted to move to timbucktwo, but that may not be possible for you and your family.

Make that Timbukthree or four. Two isn't far enough away.

[Anonymous]

oops, that was me re Timbukthree

Stormchild

[Anonymous]

Daisy,

I don't think I would be totally worried about you having to point the things out to your husband that are "wierdness" especially if he agrees with you when you point it out.  It does sound like you have a pretty good marriage other than this and that it is possible to talk to your husband.  I think it would be important for you to find out if your husband is willing to set some boundaries for her.

Maybe the two of you can work out a "schedule" for her. For her to call once a day at a certain time unless it is a life or death emergency.  Also maybe once a week or once every two weeks he can set aside an hour or two or three to "attend" to "work" she has for him.  If he agrees to set these boundaries he is going to need to stick to them.  That means when she calls at an unscheduled time he should ask what is the life or death emergency and if it isn't one he needs to tell her that she needs to call back at the prearranged time.  At the same time she probably needs to be told not to come to your house without prior arrangment.

If he is not willing to do something like this than maybe therapy will help him realize the need to do this.

LM

[jondo]

Your MIL could be my mother.  Married 5 times and injecting herself into her kids lives to an innapropriate degree (only 1 of her 4 kids is still subject to this).  She has made it clear to my sister that she's to maintain a priority relationship with her and her husband....well, he doesn't even get recognized as a player - he came later. I think it's clear what has to take place here.  Only one person can change this and it's your husband. He needs to get her out of your lives before she ruins your marriage.  I think your husband should understand a clear statement like that.  That has impact.  It's time he faced his fear of her.  Good luck communicating this need to him.

[mum as guest]

Hi Daisy. I've been busy, so just catching up. People here are amazing, really...and I'm not so sure I can be helpful, but a few things came to mind reading your post.  
I feel so bad for you, kinda like watching an "Everybody Loves Raymond" episode, but without the laughtrack!
I would only reiterate that this problem is many headed.........but primarily, it stems from your husband's relationship with his mother (that's a big duh, right?).  The ultimate responsibility for your feelings on the matter rests with you, though.  You can only control yourself.
You have to take care not only of your self, but your children....so keeping your sanity is the responsible thing to do here!

You might attempt any discussion with your husband or MIL with a statement about what YOU are going to do/tolerate/etc avoiding any sentences that start with "YOU (regarding them).  When someone is pushing my boundaries, or is trying to change my energy by dumping thier pain/problems/opinions on me through thier behavoir.....I can simply say:  I am going over here to do....or I simply must go....or this is not a good time for ME....and then I can do those things: I can also act without warning as well (although it's not as polite, it's very effective):
I simply walk away, hang up the phone, etc.
It's pretty much what we do with children: leave the groceries and walk out of the store if they have a tantrum, etc.... Simply take control of yourself...you can maintain the other person's/child's dignity if you make a choice for yourself, and demonstrate that you have limits that at least YOU respect yourself, without saying anything regarding thier behavoir directly...it is channeled through you and your needs.
 
I have had opportunities to practice this with my soon to be step daughter.  She had just a few meltdowns during her and her dad's visit this weekend, which embarrassed my own children as well.  During these episodes, I would simply walk away from her and her dad.  This allowed my fiance to deal with his daughter privately, and also removed me and my kids from the situation. (and is in keeping with what I want for our relationship). Once she asked me why I moved away.  I said, "Oh, I'm just not very comfortable when people speak in that tone. It hurts my ears"  I think after a while she figured some things out.  I set my limits, that's all. No overt judgement on her, just "this is what I want to do.....my choice".  Up to her to choose her feelings about it all.  Next interaction with her would be just as loving and fun as it would normally be, as her behavoir no longer led me to set boundaries.  We had a lot of fun together and the "parenting/disciplining" stayed where it should be, with her own parent.

I hope this helped, I know MIL's and grown men are more complex...but maybe not. It just seems to me you might be able to see it this way: take care of yourself and your children and leave the "problem" with those who own it, your husband and his mother.  
Someone on this board once referred to "closing the lid" on being a receptacle for another's trash/N behavoir.  I think when you say an "I" statement, you are not challenging the person, or threatening them, you are simply setting healthy boundaries.  
 Have you told your husband this situation makes you so uncomfortable you entertain divorce thoughts?  Can't think of any way to make this more vivid.  Take it to him with an "I" statement.........and it's up to him.