Need help with Baggage Issues

[delphine]

I'm having problems with the "happily ever after" stuff. I divorced my NXH, healed from a lifetime of N abuse by my Nmom, met a really truly wonderful guy, and now we are planning to buy a house togther. My BF has 2 sons, 1 in college, 1 starting in the fall. His XW sounds very much like an N if not a full out NPD person. She told he and his youngest son one day that she was leaving for another man. She had packed up the house in a single day so when her son came home to an empty house, that's how he found out she was leaving.  His mom moved out that night- no counseling, no talking it over, no regrets, just "what I need to do for myself."

     My BF works 60-70 hours a week and suddenly became a single parent. His youngest son is, in my opinion, a totally spoiled brat, having grown up with privelege but not emotional connection. He feels entitled to "speak his mind" which translates as tell everyone off constantly, insult us, and make demands as if we are servants, etc. I've always made it clear to BF that I would not step parent this kid. I've raised my daughter (now 11) with strict rules of social behavour and she is a joy to be around.

     BF and son recently had a counseling appt in which son told BF how his only problem was his dad. My BF expressed how badly he felt when son didn't buy him a birthday present or card or even say Happy Birthday. Son's responses was "I only missed one birthday, big deal, why are you always on my case?" Well, the well intentioned Doc proposed a session with me included.  I said that I would do it only if son acknowleges that part of the problem is himself (even if it is a small part), that he is willing to look at his part, and make changes to adjust to our new family. Right now with his "it's all your fault" attitude I don't see why I should attempt counseling with him. Why should BF spend  $120/hr to have his bratty kid tell us how WE need to change to get along with HIM?

     I've told BF that if my daughter ever adopts that attitude that I will tell her that at 18 she can leave all her problems behind (meaning, me) and pay for her own college or get her own place and job; that she can visit me and let me know how its working out. I think that's what BF should do with this kid. Why should he pay even more $$$ on counseling when life and reality will adjust his son's attitude for free?

     I don't think his son is an N but I think he's been given no boundaries of what he can say. He has no close friends, never worked, gone to expensive summer camps, private schools, etc. I  think working at a Burger King and struggling to pay rent would help him appreciate his dad. But BF is scared to do this, afraid he'll go live with his mom.

     Well, if he gets accepted at college we won't really face this until summer vacation, but I really don't want this insulting, verbally abusive kid in my home for 2 months. Go ahead and tell me I'm too inflexible if that's how you see it. But I grew up with abuse and insensitivity, married it, and have been free of it for 8 years. I also don't want to subject my daughter to it- he puts her down as well as the rest of us.

     Am I being reasonable/unreasonable?

Delphine

[Anonymous]

Delphine
Was this kid like this before his mom left?
If he was like this before she left, do you think your BF or your wife produced this result, or was it a tag team effort?
I have some experience with a step son who turned eighteen and became a real pain in the you know what. He was dealing with issues of abandonment by his father at the age of five. Up until eighteen he had been very sweet. Then it was like somebody threw a switch. He refused to listen to us or friends or our pastor. Refused any counselling.
 We eventually had to give him the boot. A few years in the real world considerably altered his view of things. He eventually finished high school and is a licensed minister. If we hadn't tossed him out I am not sure where he would be now.
One caveat, if he is depressed it could be dangerous to his health to just kick him out cold turkey. Our pastor advised us to hold off on kicking our son out at first because he was depressed. I think this may have saved his life. Once he was past the depression and was just your garden variety snot it was time for him to learn how to make it on his own.

But BF is scared to do this, afraid he'll go live with his mom.

What if he does go live with his mom? Living at home is hardly turning him into a model citizen. Is BF afraid for him at mom's because he is concerned about his son or because he doesn't want mom to look like the winner?

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all, especially where your dughter is concerned.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

I've always made it clear to BF that I would not step parent this kid. I've raised my daughter (now 11) with strict rules of social behavour and she is a joy to be around.

You're not unreasonable to expect respect from this kid. However if you're buying a house with your BF, how can you avoid being the kid's step-parent?
 

BF and son recently had a counseling appt in which son told BF how his only problem was his dad. My BF expressed how badly he felt when son didn't buy him a birthday present or card or even say Happy Birthday. Son's responses was "I only missed one birthday, big deal, why are you always on my case?"

Is this therapist helping at all, or has the process just started? The kid is obviously hurting and hates himself. Is he also in individual therapy?

Well, the well intentioned Doc proposed a session with me included.  I said that I would do it only if son acknowleges that part of the problem is himself (even if it is a small part), that he is willing to look at his part, and make changes to adjust to our new family. Right now with his "it's all your fault" attitude I don't see why I should attempt counseling with him. Why should BF spend  $120/hr to have his bratty kid tell us how WE need to change to get along with HIM?

If the kid could accomplish what you demand, there wouldn't be any need for therapy. I'd go there and tell the therapist exactly how fed up I was. Let the therapist deal with the fallout.

He has no close friends, never worked, gone to expensive summer camps, private schools, etc. I  think working at a Burger King and struggling to pay rent would help him appreciate his dad. But BF is scared to do this, afraid he'll go live with his mom.

I think he loathes himself and is desperate for someone to help him ALTHOUGH HE WILL RESIST IT. That is the way of the adolescent. I hope some professional can help him.
 
Anyway, there have to be behavioral boundaries and limits. This is about your BF being too wimpy. The kid desperately needs limits set. He's practically begging for it.

bunny

[delphine]

Thank you both, Mudpup and Bunny, two very useful perspectives.
Mud, you asked some good questions:

Was this kid like this before his mom left?
If he was like this before she left, do you think your BF or your wife produced this result, or was it a tag team effort?

I never met my BF until after his XW left, but according to BF, son has always been moody, angry, sullen. My BF worked and his XW was an at home mom, in charge of parenting. BF claims that he had wanted his son to get counseling when he was younger but XW did not. XW's parenting style was to be permissive (accepting him for who he is). After I got to know BF well, I  suggested that he set boundaries and teach social skills; son had no table manners at all when I met him although they were an upper midclass family. BF had to teach his son other rudiments like hello and goodbye. Everyone in BFs family is very well mannered, including his oldest son, who must have learned by copying his dad. Somehow, younger son did not choose to adopt manners and was 16 before BF told him he had to. (Since son knows these are my suggestions you can see why he resents me.) So, I think XW produced/enabled his selfishness and BF deferred to her decisions.

Thank you for sharing about you stepson, that is what I've seen my friends do with surly kids and it seems to work. Son is not depressed but he might BECOME depressed if he has to actually work...

BF is afraid of both of his boys leaving him, joining their mom and her new H; not returning home. Personally I don't think this is likely, and the youngest son is not likely to get a warm reception with her new H.

I don't think it would take more than a few months on his own to crack open his arrogance. He's a smart kid, good grades, no drugs.

Bunny, you asked

However if you're buying a house with your BF, how can you avoid being the kid's step-parent?

That's why I've wanted to wait until he went to college; I'd rather he be an adult visitor in our home, not a boy I am responsible for. But  maybe it's still like step parenting.

Son saw a therapist alone for a few months, quit that, and son and BF have seen this guy together 3 times. Son used the individual therapy to vent his anger at his dad. She never asked about his mom (not very astute). At least this new therapist pointed out to son that his anger at me might be displaced anger at his mom. I agree, he must be hurting, but most therapists will tell you that if a kid is that old (almost 18), and doesn't choose therapy for himself there isn't much a therapist can do.
You are so right, he does need help . What I've said to BF is that his door is locked from the inside, we can't force him to open up, but if you quit shoving food under the door he'll have to come out eventually.
Does that make sense?

I also intuitively suspect that son is holding his mother's secrets. SOMETHING must have been going on before his mom packed up and left. She remarried 5 days after the divorce. I wonder if son, who had no social life, always at home, saw and heard things going on that he feels guilty for not telling dad.

I will think about what you said about going to therapy anyway but I am angry, protective of my BF and don't want to make thingd worse. He IS being too wimpy, thanks for that! But his kindness is also very sexy... sigh..
Delphine[/quote]

[bunny]

That's why I've wanted to wait until he went to college; I'd rather he be an adult visitor in our home, not a boy I am responsible for. But  maybe it's still like step parenting.

I can understand your waiting until this obnoxious person has gone to college.

Son used the individual therapy to vent his anger at his dad. She never asked about his mom (not very astute). At least this new therapist pointed out to son that his anger at me might be displaced anger at his mom.

Even so, the son probably has a lot of reasons to be seriously angry with his dad. He may blame dad for not holding the marriage together. He may blame dad for not seeing limits with him. He may blame dad for working 60 hours/week. His anger is okay. The problem is acting out rather than managing anger in a mature way. A therapist may listen to a lot of anger venting and after trust is established, then starts confronting how the boy deals with anger.

I agree, he must be hurting, but most therapists will tell you that if a kid is that old (almost 18), and doesn't choose therapy for himself there isn't much a therapist can do.

A therapist who is good at working with troubled adolescents might be able to gain this young person's trust.

You are so right, he does need help . What I've said to BF is that his door is locked from the inside, we can't force him to open up, but if you quit shoving food under the door he'll have to come out eventually.
Does that make sense?

I would initially try shoving different foods under the door. Here's my take on this kid. He is testing everyone to see if they, too, will abandon him. He is acting out in the worst way to see if his Dad will also leave him. The test is whether his Dad will continue to care no matter how much of a b*#*(# he is. The problem with this test is that it is backfiring and is quite unproductive and obnoxious. In fact, the kid's worst fear of abandonment is being contemplated by you and his father.

I just hope the therapist can earn his trust and start working with him. You and your BF will have to set limits. The BF has to be a real male role model here, stonewalling anything that goes past the limit. Your BF will have to tolerate this kid's projections of devaluing, hate, shame, and all the stuff that he feels about himself. Tolerating a projection isn't tolerating behavior, though. Tolerating a projection means not reacting with a retaliation but with calmness. Limits and consequences are still enforced for acting out.

I also intuitively suspect that son is holding his mother's secrets. SOMETHING must have been going on before his mom packed up and left. She remarried 5 days after the divorce. I wonder if son, who had no social life, always at home, saw and heard things going on that he feels guilty for not telling dad.

You may be right.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi Delphine and bunny,
The problem we had was the age issue. Our son was immature emotionally for his age. Unfortunately, physically and legally he was an adult. So even though they act like adolescents there isn't a whole lot of control that can be exerted if they won't help themselves voluntarily. Spanking is no longer an option when they're as big as you are.  
In fact there just aren't a lot of options at that age. Its a lot harder to put the genie back in the bottle when they know they can pretty much do what they want, especially if they sense you are unwilling to apply the boot.
Obviously, the ideal thing would be for him to be motivated to go to counseling. If he's not, you may have a test of how strong your relationship with your BF is  coming up. Make sure you and BF are on the same page. My MIL lost a marriage to a cunning and ruthless little step son.
I hope you and Bf can discuss this thing without BF defending his territory or thinking you are interfering.
Good luck.

mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

mudpup,

If the child is now an adult, that's it. They can be told that financial support is over and they're on their own.

In the case of delphine, some therapy is in place already. The boy is showing up for the session. That tells me that he is hoping someone will help him.

bunny

[Anonymous]

bunny,

That tells me that he is hoping someone will help him.

Let's hope so. It is NO, and I mean NO, fun having to kick somebody you love out of your house, no matter how obnoxious they're acting. I've done it twice, and I hope that's all.

Our daughter says she wants to live with us forever so I guess I don't have to worry about her. Yeah, right.
Seems like sons are usually the ones that need the boot in the arse, huh?
Most girls can't wait to leave, it seems like.

mudpup

[delphine]

Hi Mud and bunny,

The kid will voluntarily go to therapy, but he will not do any homework given (he says he's not a ginea pig), he won't allow any conversation about what HE could do differently, or how HE contributes to any problems. He has no friends because the kids at his school are beneath him. His social skills are perfect but his dad keeps harping on him for no reason. He doesn't date because his dad won't let him (he asked out a 14 yr old girl whose parents won't let her date and BF forbid him to sneak behind their backs).
Bunny, the first therapist he saw is a friend of mine, very nurturing person, but I think she did him no good at all.

I don't see it as us booting him out but as us respecting his rights as an adult. If he really thinks all his problems are his dad's fault, he should be given a chance to test out that theory. See if the "problems" end or mysteriously travel to new situiations. I've told BF that I'm comfortable with him being in our home if he is willing to see that we ALL need to learn to adjust to each other. I'll commit to therapy if he will commit to owning some of the disharmony.

To make things messier, I came home when I was 16 to find my mother gone, just like him. I understand all too well the raging anger. I watched it in my brother, too. I have compassion for this kid but to me he's only looking for targets to blame, not solutions. I am not volunteering for that, and not offering my daughter either.

My BF has stood by me every time I've made this clear, and I love him but I'm willing to lose him if he feels he needs to sacrifice himself to appease his son. My BF worked, cooked, grocery shopped, did home repairs, and drove his son to a gym 40 min away from the home 4 times a week. He has spent enough of his life giving all to his family with no thanks. They were raised to expect this of him, to expect dad to provide it all and ask nothing. He is very good to my daughter and I and you can still see the amazement in his eyes when we show gratitude or do something nice back.

If his son is hurting, how much hurt is he allowed to inflict on others; how understanding are we supposed to be?
I want to understand him but at a distance....like maybe from across town...
Delphine
ps.  thank you so much for your generous time and consideration. This is more helpful than I can ever say..

[Andrea]

I'm 28. And I was kicked out actually 17 in the middle of my senior year. I came home and found my clothes in plastic Hefty bags on the curb. Then my parents reported me missing. Then I stayed with a friend for a few days. Then they came and got me, then shipped me to my oldest sisters. I left her home at 18 on the dot. (more drama at her house)

I struggled. I worked 2 jobs. I bought my own used car. I learned to grocery shop and feed myself. And I survived just fine.

Now I have a great job, make good money, have a nice apt. with furniture and everything else I need. I worked for ALL OF IT. And believe me I appreciate it more. When you're handed everything you don't appreciate it.

A little blood, sweat, & tears never killed a teenager/young adult. Maybe some dirt on his knees will be good for him.

[Kaz]

Everybody survives one way or another when they leave home.
Leaving with a gentle nudge from a caring parent is a whole lot different to being tossed out by an uncaring one.

[delphine]

Thanks Andrea. It really helps to hear that.
Kaz, I don't quite get your point, would you please say more about what you are thinking? I really appreciate your taking the time to read this through and consider it so I really want to know how you, and others, see my situation. Unbiased feedback from those who "don't have a dog in this fight " is really helpful.
Delphine

[bunny]

The kid will voluntarily go to therapy, but he will not do any homework given (he says he's not a ginea pig), he won't allow any conversation about what HE could do differently, or how HE contributes to any problems. He has no friends because the kids at his school are beneath him. His social skills are perfect but his dad keeps harping on him for no reason.

Well he sounds severely impaired by shame and rage. It's a very tough case. A therapist will have a really hard time here. But if the therapist specializes in adolescents maybe he can earn this kid's trust. If not, then I guess this kid can be on his own. Your daughter can't be exposed to him. I don't think the therapist needs to be nurturing at all. Trust is created (in this case) by firmness, tolerance, empathy, and humor. I don't see how homework would work, as this kid is obviously not going to do it. Interestingly he seems to obey his father although resenting him. He isn't dating because his father forbade it.

I don't see it as us booting him out but as us respecting his rights as an adult. If he really thinks all his problems are his dad's fault, he should be given a chance to test out that theory. See if the "problems" end or mysteriously travel to new situiations.

He will still blame his father.  Logic doesn't enter into this. ultimately it's up to you guys whether to let him live with you.

I've told BF that I'm comfortable with him being in our home if he is willing to see that we ALL need to learn to adjust to each other. I'll commit to therapy if he will commit to owning some of the disharmony.

Although this is reasonable, he can't commit to something like that. And it may be that he has to leave.

To make things messier, I came home when I was 16 to find my mother gone, just like him. I understand all too well the raging anger. I watched it in my brother, too. I have compassion for this kid but to me he's only looking for targets to blame, not solutions. I am not volunteering for that, and not offering my daughter either.

I find it quite interesting that you are joining a family with the same awful maternal abandonment. And you succeeded with your daughter, but found a man who failed with his son.

My BF worked, cooked, grocery shopped, did home repairs, and drove his son to a gym 40 min away from the home 4 times a week. He has spent enough of his life giving all to his family with no thanks. They were raised to expect this of him, to expect dad to provide it all and ask nothing. He is very good to my daughter and I and you can still see the amazement in his eyes when we show gratitude or do something nice back.

Has your BF been wimpy for the entire time? Because this son has no respect.
 

If his son is hurting, how much hurt is he allowed to inflict on others; how understanding are we supposed to be?

You can stop being understanding the minute he turns 18. If he's already 18, the understanding can stop today if you choose. You aren't responsible for him anymore and if he's just an ungrateful loser, then goodbye. He will have to figure out how to deal with life as we all do. If he feels bitter, that's tough.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi Delphine and everyone:

This sure seems like a tough nut to crack.  On one hand, you have every right to expect to be treated with respect by your BF's son, especially if he will be residing in your joint home, even if that is only for a couple of months in the summer.  You understand how his son has developed his attitude and you empathize with his feelings which you see as due to the trauma of his mother leaving in such a sudden, heartless and selfish manner.  It's not unreasonable to want to protect your daughter from such a negative influence, as this boy seems to project, and you are somewhat willing to try therapy (although I also think it is unrealistic to expect anything from your BF's son in advance and the best thing might be to go ahead and voice your feelings in therapy).

On the other hand, I'm trying to see things from the son's point of view too.  He's been angry for eons and it isn't going away any time soon.  His dad has been trying to soothe him, the best way he knew how and his son has been milking that, as any kid will, given the opportunity (without being taught otherwise).   Now you come along and try to "teach" him stuff he doesn't want to know, that his dad has allowed him not to learn.  You're taking his dad away from him (in his mind maybe) and if you hadn't shown up, he'd be happily going about his business.  He's going to therapy, which might be a biggggggg deal for him and he might be hoping to get his dad to see how YOU have come along and recked everything????
If you join in the therapy sessions......who knows what position he will take? He might clam up, he might let YOU have it, he might try a different approach or he might just quit going???  He sounds like a guy with a brain and he's not in jail yet so that tells me that he's doing some things right.  Maybe he'll pleasantly surprise everyone and begin to open up and take some responsibility for his behaviour?  Maybe not.

Your BF has stood by you, so far, you say, so the hope is that he will continue to try his best to do that.  My guess is.....there is no way to predict what will happen, but if you do decide to go to therapy and voice your feelings, he might actually hear you, if you try to show empathy for him first and try to help him see that you are on his side too.

I have had the experience of setting a limit with my child and having that child leave because the limit was unacceptable (in my child's opinion).  My child is now an adult and has actually said that I was "right about a lot of things" and other knock-me-over-with-shock-like comments.  

Kids grow up regardless.  No one is going to die in therapy.  Giving it a good go before taking up residence, although scarey, may be the best thing for all.

I wish I had something more useful to offer but that's about it.  I hope it all works out for you.

GFN

[delphine]

Hi bunny, thanks for all the time you are taking.
This is so true

he sounds severely impaired by shame and rage. It's a very tough case. A therapist will have a really hard time here. But if the therapist specializes in adolescents maybe he can earn this kid's trust. If not, then I guess this kid can be on his own. Your daughter can't be exposed to him. I don't think the therapist needs to be nurturing at all. Trust is created (in this case) by firmness, tolerance, empathy, and humor.

And it IS interesting that he isn't disobeying his dad at all just disrespecting him. I hadn't thought about that before. Can you think of why he might be verbally hateful yet still unrebellious?

I find it quite interesting that you are joining a family with the same awful maternal abandonment. And you succeeded with your daughter, but found a man who failed with his son.

Really!!!! I think that we are given lessons to resolve over and over; either God loves repetition or  our life is just like that movie Groundhog Day.

I don't think of my BF as wimpy, although that is a superficially accurate description, I think he is one of those guys who has love confused with sacrifice. He is a successful manager and holds his own very well professionally but perhaps tries to "manage" his personal life, ie, take too much responsibility. Only in life he doesn't get a big bonus and pay raise for taking on more than others. He gets called wimpy.

Son is 6 weeks away from eighteen.  He's been dealt a lousy hand but  so was I at his age. I wonder if I was that arrogant, I don't know, I might have been I left home at 17, early college admissions, and was glad to be away from home.

Bunny, you seem to know a lot about therapy, do you work in the field or have you studied it?
Wish you lived in our town, you have a lot of insight into teens.
Delphine