Need help with Baggage Issues

[mum]

Wow, this one is tough.  I would tred very lightly here, if I were you.
I was married to my second husband for only 4 years, and in that time, his initial "jokes" and soapbox speeches about parenting (he was not one) were amusing.  After  a while, however, I found he really did not want anything to do with kids, except to exploit them to make him look...(fill in the blank: normal, well rounded, a kid friendly person) or to "discipline" them, which I did not allow (cannot be done without love in my opinion).  He did not want a relationship of any kind with my children.  And my kids were much younger at the time, and well behaved, "properly" socialized, etc.  Granted the guy had a multitude of problems, narcissism being the biggie, but the bottom line for me was this: It is impossible to sustain "love" for someone who does not love your child.

Please be careful.  Regardless of your opinion of this boy, switch roles.  How would you be feeling if your BF did not love your daughter?  You need to feel love for this child, regardless of the behavior, or your relationship with his father will be difficult to say the least.  
On the subject of egos, perhaps everyone involved needs to check theirs.
Anytime there is substantial judgement going on, there is some serious ego involvement.  
You really don't have to parent this kid, as much as you might need to love him.  
Sorry if I sound harsh...but my second husband broke my heart, by not loving what was in there.  You know as a mother that your children always come first.  Have you considered that however "poor" his parenting looks to you, your BF loves this kid as much?

[Anonymous]

delphine:

I really think my nieces anger comes from the fact that her feelings as a child were not taken into account by my brother.  He was never at home and was busy building his business.  Also my brother is very over bearing and aggressive.  I remember being invited to Ft. Lauderdale to stay in an expensive condo.  While we were there, his daughters met some very nice boys by the pool.  Well they wanted to go somewhere with them, you know being teenagers.  Well,  they decided to invite these young people up to the condo and were were going to cook out.  I told the girls I thought it was a very nice idea.  The next thing I know my brother was going ballistic and started brow beating everyone because "they did not check with him".  I told my brother I had met these young people and I thought it would be very nice to have them over for dinner.  I also pointed out it would be better than having the girls go off alone and not knowing where they were going to be.  He got extremely red in the face and started shouting  "I know what the f...k is best for my daughters."  He told his teenage girls to go into their rooms and he started shouting at them and actually kicking the doors.  I was totally appalled by the whole incident.  This is just a small illustration where their feelings over a small matter was totally blown out of proportion and not considered or handled in an adult fashion.  He totally missed the opportunity to interact with a nice group of young people and try to get to know his daughters as people.

This is very horrible that this young man's mother abandoned him and then when she does communicate it is to talk about her DOGS.  Just what is this supposed to tell him.  That not only is he not important but he is nothing compared to her animals.  He is lower than the animals in the pecking order as far  as she is concerned.  So what is eating at your future stepson...........well how about what the mother did to him and how your BF did/or did not stand up to her to take an account of what she has done and is continuing to do?  I don't know what you think about this but at least it is a starting point.  There is something eating this kid up inside and the only way he knows how to strike back is in anger.  Just my 2c. Patz

[delphine]

Dear Patz, Mum,Mudpup, bunny, and GFN,

Thank you so much for caring about our lives and struggles enough to share your thoughts and life lessons with me. I am ever so greatful.

Patz, I want to respond to you first because I think this truly is at the heart of the matter:

This is very horrible that this young man's mother abandoned him and then when she does communicate it is to talk about her DOGS. Just what is this supposed to tell him. That not only is he not important but he is nothing compared to her animals. He is lower than the animals in the pecking order as far as she is concerned. So what is eating at your future stepson...........well how about what the mother did to him and how your BF did/or did not stand up to her to take an account of what she has done and is continuing to do? I don't know what you think about this but at least it is a starting point. There is something eating this kid up inside and the only way he knows how to strike back is in anger.

You (and others) are really helping me to see that I have lost perspective of WHERE this kid's anger is coming from. I think bunny was the first to bring it up, also Kaz, Mum, and GFN.
I told BF last night that you all had helped me decide to go to therapy- BF, son, and I- that I was removing my "condition" that son be willing to work on his part of the problems. I said I am willing to just go and see if it helps or not.

Patz, your neice may not be an N. I acted very Nish in my early 20s after being raised by an N mom and then abandoned at 16 to live with an Alkie dad. I DID choose to change, over time, when people I cared about told me how I was affecting them. Thanks for sharing that.

Mum, I read your words very carefully, and looked in my heart. I can see how reactive I've become to son's behavour but essentially I know that I love BOTH his kids but I do NOT LIKE young son's behavour. BF knows I've also put a LOT of my personal time and energy into trying to help his sons. I've tried to reach him in many ways- proofing scholarship essays, attending events and movies that he likes, planning his birthday party, surfing the net to find jokes that might make him smile, picking out gifts that he would really like (I've gotten him gifts when his mom did NOT) etc.In the house BF and I will buy we are ONLY considering one with room for both his boys to visit, and a dining space big enough to host us all and then some. I really am not about trying to be the fairy tale evil stepmom; I really am about creating a real home, which means enforcing boundaries of behavour and self expression.

Mudpup, thank you so much for sharing these stories. I am definately not looking for this:

The long and the short is he wrecked their marriage by constantly undermining her and causing constant divisions

It's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? A mom has an unquestionable right to require respect and courtesy from her kids but the minute a GF or StepM ask for even a portion of it, our motives are suspect, our ability to love invalidated.

BF and his XW had a traditional family; BF worked, W raised kids. Why should BF be expected to suddenly know all about parenting, esp single parenting, at a time when he was angry and greiving himself? XW raised a kid with no boundaries, didn't like the result, and then ditched him. Now BF is supposed to know how to fix a problem he did not totally create, and I get all the blame for not wanting to wet nurse a teenager.

Somebody should film the REAL Brady Bunch... lol

Thank you for your insights, Mud, it lets me know that tough love is a valid option.

GFN, this is soooo appropriate to hear:

The truth is.....I did not remain devestated for long. I am not a failure as a parent. Actually, I'm a very good parent. Nothing inside me is permanently broken and my left arm is still where it has always been. My heart did feel broken and it was an awful experience but it was also a necessary experience. It hurt me tremendously but it is what my child needed. I lived and so did my child. It was necessary for my child to learn and grow.

Esp this part:

It was necessary for my child to learn and grow.

I soo want my BF to see that this is ultimately what I want for his boys, and it's how I've raised my own daughter. How I will continue to raise her. I think the easy part of parenting is loving kids, the hard part is teaching them what they'll need to know to thrive on their own.
Thank you.

bunny, THIS sums up the problem so well

I don't think this is easy for anyone. But he is not a four year old and he can't be given all this leeway. He may be incredibly immature but the world isn't going to tolerate it

And this REALLY IS a kid who has many talents to offer the world IF he deals with his anger in a productive way. Last night I told my BF that I thought our choices might come down to having son live on his own and resent us for a few years and then grow up, or live with us and resent us his whole life, remain in the house when we pass on, and live a bitter, lonely existence.

I want to share one last thing son said in therapy (he and dad) last week-

"My dad, my brother, and I were all affected by the divorce. Everyone was affected but my mom. She acts like it didn't matter to her at all."

Chilling observation, isn't it???
I had an N mom, too, I KNOW what it's like to watch them walk away from each train wreck they create and never look back...

Delphine

[mum]

Delphine: it is obvious that you do care about this boy. I am glad you took no offense at my comments.  

Perhaps you need to give it all a break, I mean your trying so hard.  Let it go, love him and care about him, but you have your own child to focus on, who is ultimately your real responsibility.  Let your BF do the work he feels he needs to do for his child, let the child/young man do what he needs to do.  If your BF does not see it the way you do, oh well.  If you cannot live with his plan or lack of one, then it does involve you and you get to make a decision.
Set your boundaries for yourself and your daughter (sounds like you have) in terms of what you will and will not accept from others (ANY others) and leave it at that.

Whenever I am troubled or unhappy about something, I find it's because I am attached to something that I want that I don't have.
 For example: my mother is dying.....it causes  me a great deal of pain when I can't accept that she is old and sick and may leave us soon. I am attached to her being there forever, and when I can detach from that, I can trust that what is suppose to happen will, and simply pray that her end is peaceful.  Beyond that, I create so much more pain for myself by wanting what I don't have.  It's not a cold thing, I definately feel this loss, but it's enevitable and actually a very beautiful part of being human. She welcomes it, so who am I to want it otherwise?  But I digress..............

If I can simply accept the way things are, find value and be grateful for what I have that IS good at the moment, it is easier for me to "let go" of this attachement.  In doing this, I free myself from having to control and figure out everything (that I can't anyway, which is causing me pain).  Also, I have found that in doing this, I don't shirk any "responsibility" at all, in fact it helps me to find more creative ways of thinking and approaching a situation, because my mind is not all caught up in it at all times.

Steven Covey has a great visual that goes with this, but I will do my best to explain this:
There are two concentric circles: the larger, outer circle is your "circle of concern" or all the things you are concerned about.  The inner, smaller circle, is your "circle of influence", or all the things you are concerned about that you actually can do something about.
The theory is this: If you spend your energy out in the circle of concern, where you can do nothing you are spinning your wheels, wasting your time, and diminishing the size and activity in your circle of influence.
Now if you instead can identify what exactly within your concern you can actually influence and you spend your energy there in that center circle, you actually expand your influence outwardly into your concern.

I have thought of this frequently and sometimes, I decide there are things I don't even need to have in my circle of concern at all. For example: my children's happiness is always in my larger circle of concern. However, when they are at thier dad's house, it's not within my circle of influence. If I spend my energy freaking out about whether or not they are happy there, what ridiculous things he will tell them, etc etc....it's a waste of my precious energy and doesn't help anyone at all.  However if I keep my focus on when they are with me (which I can influence), I stay happier, they see a different way to do life, and that in turn expands my influence circle, so that when they are with Mr. and Mrs. Negative, they can see it's possible to make happy, healthy choices for themselves.  Make sense?

So what I am suggesting is to take care of yourself and your daughter, as you clearly are, set your boundaries with "I" messages (as in, I am going out of the room, as "I" am not comfortable with that behavoir, etc) and stay happy yourself.  It is contagious, this happiness thing, and especially powerful with strong boundaries.

This guy (BF) is pretty lucky, I think, to have someone as strong and caring as you.  Hope he recognizes that.

[Anonymous]

Delphine,

Since you are hearing what goes on in the therapy, and find it interesting, you will probably be a great participant in the session. Go there and have some fun (relatively speaking). The boy is actually admitting to vulnerability by mentioning the pain of his mother's indifference to the divorce. That's a good sign.

His anger is also about mourning his lost mother. You are giving him what his mother is not. That evokes a lot of feelings in him: yearning for his own mother, rage that his mother isn't giving him this stuff, self-hate that he isn't good enough for his mom. Freud once said that when someone is mourning, they won't accept any substitutes for the lost loved one -- not even a far better substitute.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Patz, I want to respond to you first because I think this truly is at the heart of the matter:

This is very horrible that this young man's mother abandoned him and then when she does communicate it is to talk about her DOGS. .......  There is something eating this kid up inside and the only way he knows how to strike back is in anger.

You (and others) are really helping me to see that I have lost perspective of WHERE this kid's anger is coming from.

Hi Delphine, hope you are well, I hope you will not mind my adding a thought here.. I really like the things the other people are telling you.. kids even older kids dont have the skills, to express their emotions appropriately sometimes. I dont know what this particular kid needs to do that, but I hope its somthing that the therapist can help with.

ive seen kids respond to the concept of  'getting what they want'. they havent had it explained to them, that reacting with hostility, may feel good for the present or -seem- to accomplish their goals, but in the long run, it is actually accomplishing exactly what they -dont- want, isolation and people disliking them. ive used this with little kids at the school where i work. one kid will be hitting another to try to get attention from them. if you explain to them that hitting someone gets attention for a minute, but then the person usually dislikes you and avoids you after that;  but being nice to them not only gets attention right away but also helps them be your longterm friend, which is often realy what they were trying for, but didnt have the skills. so many times people acting out want love and attention. if you can verbalise (and show) that he will get more love and attention, by treating you with respect.. then you both win.

theres another thing that i havent seen anyone else mention, so i will, becuase i had a stepmother, who was a lot less nice than you are being!: you wrote: "A mom has an unquestionable right to require respect and courtesy from her kids but the minute a GF or StepM ask for even a portion of it, our motives are suspect, our ability to love invalidated." theres a real reason for that, something you have nothing to do with, didnt ask for, and can never change:   like it or not, stepparents are often seen as an obstacle, a competitor, for the parents love. and the kid usually feels, "i was here first!"  

with this boy in particular, who has lost his mother in a humiliating and devastating way, anything else perceived as threatening the last threads of his remaining family, may automatically be viewed as a real threat to his security in life.

its a sucky and unfair position for you to be in... but thank goodness he is almost 18, he is going to therapy, and you are big enough to care and make the effort. just a few thoughts i had. i really hope he can continue to feel supported and be vulnerable in therapy, and that you continue to feel supported and get what you need too. maybe if you could share some of your feelings about your own mother.. it could be the starting point of some commonality between you as well.
take care
Anna

[Anonymous]

Those were really good points Anna.  I'm glad you're here!

Hey Delphine:

I was just thinking......another thing might be that this son is afraid.

Afraid to be nice to you or act nicely around you, 'cause you might like him and then he'd have some kind of good relationship with you.
Afraid he might actually like you, if he lets you into his life.
Afraid you might not care about him (be using him) or worse.
Afraid you might pretend to care about him and then abandon him
like his mother did.
Afraid to feel love for you and then be discarded, like his mother did.
Afraid of the potential massive hurt that could come from trusting you.
Afraid to admit any of this and possibly unaware of much of it.

It's safer to keep a good distance.
You can't lose what you don't have any attachment to.
It's easier not to trust.  

GFN

[Kaz]

Well said GFN.
The bad manners and rude behaviour is really quite superficial, there's a very frightened boy in there.

[delphine]

Dear Mum, Bunny, Anna and GFN,

Thanks for caring and sharing your thoughts. This thread has been very helpful to me.
GFN, I began my relationship with son under the premises that you mention, that he would be afraid to befriend me, but time and effort have not changed the way he acts towards me, and he acts that way to his own grandmother, teachers at school, etc. Something is going on that started before I ever showed up.

Anna, what you say about stepparents is true- they are viewed by kids as undermining the family tie with their parent. However, most kids adjust pretty readily to the idea that a stepparent can be an ally if the adult makes the effort to show them caring and kindness, which I have done. Older son has responded to my efforts. I think something is going on with younger son that I did not create and that I cannot fix...
He's also had concepts like "getting what you want' explained to him with patience (my BF talks like this to him quite a bit). Son's response is that he doesn't care if other people like him or not, he has a right to "be myself" and "say what I think", and "why are you always telling me that I'm not okay?" ...get the drift? He cannot hear ANYTHING said to him as support. It ALL sounds like attack to him. His current mode of conversation is he puts you down via sarcastic personal remarks and expects you to laugh and admire his brilliance and insight.  But if you say "ouch" he writes it off as your stupidity for not getting his humor.

Bunny, this applies to son verrrry well:

Freud once said that when someone is mourning, they won't accept any substitutes for the lost loved one -- not even a far better substitute.

Only I think his sense of loss and abandonment may have started long before his mom ever physically left.   If she had ever bonded with him at all, how could she walk away one day and not look back?

Mum, thank you so much for your kind words, and reminder to stay detached. That meant a lot to me.

This whole experience for me is like Beyond Codependence, the Advanced Course. How can you feel and express compassion, caring, support, and love to someone who interprets your gestures as attacks, intrusions, or stupidity? And, if kindness pushes a button that results in an attack, at what point is it just masochism to continue to be kind?

I DO have it in me to not react to his barbs, to either trade zingers or walk away but I can never be myself around him. And THAT'S what I don't want in my own home because THAT'S what my childhood was like, and I won't give my own child that toxic air to breathe.

So while I feel sympathy for him I cannot connect with him. As an old Anon 12 Stepper I just do the 1st step repeatedly, acknowlege my powerlessness.

New development:
Son told BF that he wants things to change, that he doesn't want to have to live on his own. That's progress.... we might be headed towards therapy at the very least.

Delphine

[delphine]

Kaz, didn't intend to leave you out of reply; we were writing at the same time. While it's got to be true that he is frightened- why ELSE would he be so defensive?? and angry to boot, knowing how to interact with him in an effective way, one that defuses his fears, is the problem.

[Anonymous]

Hi Delphine,
One more 'Tale From the Crypt'.
My MIL has remarried to a really really great guy. His wife had died a few years before.
His daughter (adult, married with now grown kids) has never accepted my MIL. It has gotten worse over the years not better. Finally when MIL was snubbed at a wedding by the daughter, my MIL's husband put his foot down and set a boundary which has resulted in essentially zero contact with his daughter. Having lost one marriage to a steptwerp my MIL is naturally a little sensitive to this stuff, but her husband has been stalwart in defending their marriage from the Little Princess.
I feel like I keep throwing cold water on all the nice warm sympathetic things people keep telling you. Sorry. I really do hope very much that your SS changes and you all 'live happily ever' after as you put it in your original post. And obviously what somebody is at eighteen isn't what they are forever.
Unfortunately sometimes the people we fall in love with have a great big wart attached to them and we love them anyway. Sometimes it falls off, sometimes it doesn't.    

mudpuppy

[mum]

It sounds to me like wherever and whatever the problem is and is coming from, your bottom line is not letting your own child have "toxic air to breathe".  It sounds like that is your healthy boundary.  Very healthy.
That is what I heard in your post that was not fuzzy for you or confusing for you, but clear and strong.  It's the one thing you are sure of, and certainly it sounds like your true power is there.  What a lucky daughter you have!
If you can't live there because this boundary is crossed regularly (in the air) then you simply can't.  Maybe you and your BF can wait til his son is on his own.  
I am sorry, I know how hard this is.  You are dealing with someone else's pathology, and doing an ubelievable job with it, but your real job is your own kid and you recognize that.  And that's why it's hard.  

IMO You would do MORE for this young man by NOT moving in, than by moving in and trying to change things, or by trying to change things and then move in.  Why? Because you demonstrate how a person loves themselves and thier own children appropriately.  Not exactly the baseball bat over the head method........but the stay true to yourself, take care of yourself, and hope someday he'll figure that out method...but you take your energy out of it and take care of yourself (and your daughter).  

It's your BF's job to deal with and help his son.  You have taken it on, emotionally, because you love this man, that much is clear.  But it is all stuff that is someone else's issue, really.  You can be a support to your BF but you can't do it for him.  Perhaps a "behind the scenes" supporter is what would work better.  Listen, offer support, but let him handle it. Your BF has to step up to the plate, not you.

In this way, you retain your power....it's not giving in to the son's "power" (to get rid of you?) even if he chooses to see it that way.  You make a decision for yourself and your child.  He can think whatever he wants.

[bunny]

Only I think his sense of loss and abandonment may have started long before his mom ever physically left.   If she had ever bonded with him at all, how could she walk away one day and not look back?

A child will bond with a narcissistic parent very powerfully. A child has no choice. He must bond or die. infants are hardwired to do that. The mother, on the other hand, may have only given him little seductions and led him to hope for more. He was already dying on the vine, hoping. When she left, the vine dried up but was still alive. If you can imagine a famished, sad looking vine, that is this boy.

The way to deal with a person who takes every single thing as an attack is to ignore 90% of it and don't react at all. To the 10% that you have to react to, be very neutral, firm, and don't get sucked into a debate. If he says, "Why are you always telling me I'm not okay?" I would say, "Sorry I don't mean to tell you that. I'll try not to." Don't ask for examples, this is being drawn into a waste-of-time debate. If he says, "I can say whatever I think," my reply would be, "You can try. It might end up with a consequence but that's your option."  The sarcastic remarks I would ignore completely. Don't give them any attention. If they are met with silence he will feel the sarcasm reverberating in his own head and it will not be pretty.

I'm glad the boy has admitted that he isn't ready to live on his own. That is a great development.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Well said GFN.
The bad manners and rude behaviour is really quite superficial, there's a very frightened boy in there.

 
Thanks for the kind compliment.  True, these behaviours are superficial and true about the fear (probably) but I also agree with Mudpuppy...I think he's saying that the boy's feelings/past experiences do not give him a licence to act rudely, cruelly, etc to others and allowing it/tolerating it is encouraging it.

We can understand the reasons for a person's behaviour but that does not make the behaviour correct.  His hurt is no excuse to hurt others.  Hopefully, therapy will give him an avenue to express his feelings and for all to express the effect his behaviour has had on the family/people's feelings/etc. and hopefully he will feel the empathy of others and begin to empathize with them too.  

GFN, I began my relationship with son under the premises that you mention, that he would be afraid to befriend me, but time and effort have not changed the way he acts towards me, and he acts that way to his own grandmother, teachers at school, etc. Something is going on that started before I ever showed up.  

 
Yes.  For sure.  Are the teachers female?  The thing that was going on was that his mother caused him agonizing emotional pain and it has not been dealt with and so it is still going on.  Possibly he views all females as being untrustworthy, or maybe they remind him of his deep pain and he acts out???  Maybe Grandmother has made remarks that defend his mother's actions (just guessing) and maybe that has added to his anger???

It's so hard to find a way into someone's heart if they have put up stone walls and missile-launchers all around it, isn't it?

Makes me think all of that has to be disassembled first.

GFN

[delphine]

Hi GFN, bunny, Mum, and Mud,

I got this email from BF today:
Well, that was an emotional read!  We have a lot of good stuff to work from here in our discussions this weekend and going forward.  I almost posted a thank you but I would wish that you pass that along on my behalf.  Thanks
for doing that small thing for me.

I will need to re-read it at least once or twice more to digest it all.

One thing that is true, the person speaking about dealing with the aftermath of a decision or action, it makes us stronger, gives us new ways to look at things.  I have to remind myself
that this is true.  I did not think I could ever survive being divorced and
here I am preparing for our new adventure together.  I know we can work
through this and the end result will be what it must be and I will accept
and appreciate the situation in all its aspects, good and bad.

I love you,
BF


You have all helped us a lot.

GFN you asked if son's teachers were female- interesting train of thought, yes, and I do think he is more reactive to women. Good observation.
Bunny, thanks for the good tips.
Mum, BF and I plan to move in this fall when son goes to college. As you can tell from BFs email, he is committed to living together. He says son can temporarily live with his mom, grandparents, brother, etc if he cannot adjust to our new family. As long as BF and I are on the same page regarding son, that's what I want as well.
Mud, please tell me your tales from the crypt anytime! You are so helpful.

We have a lot of talking to do this weekend and I will keep you all posted. I'll be reading but perhaps not responding till Sun, so please share any more thoughts.
You guys ROCK!!!!!!!!!!
bLESSINGS TO YOU ALL,
DELPHINE