An unanswered question

[Butterfly]

Greetings everyone  

I'm new to this forum.  I'm so delighted to bump into this website and find many warm and caring ppl on board.  I would like to ask a question that I don't have an answer for.  I would be delighted and grateful if anyone would share their thoughts or comments on my question.  Here it is...

How do you disassociate from feeling or thinking there is something wrong with you when you said or did something dumb or stupid?  In other words, how do you disassociate yourself from feeling dumb or stupid when you did a dumb or stupid thing? I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do you make yourself see that your value does not depend on your mistakes.  How do you keep on thinking highly of yourself, inspite of making mistakes?  I have a strong tendency to think there's something wrong with me whenever I think I did something wrong.  I wish I know how to get out of this mindset.

I'm sorry, I meant to only ask a question.  But it ended up being a few.

Thank you a whole bunch for listening to my lifelong unsolved dilemma.

[Kaz]

Welcome Butterfly,
Is someone else telling you that you are stupid and dumb or are you the only one telling yourself off when you make a mistake?
Do you otherwise think highly of yourself?
Perhaps you could give an example of how this works for you.

[October]

How do you disassociate from feeling or thinking there is something wrong with you when you said or did something dumb or stupid?

Hiya Butterfly,  I think I understand what you are saying.  It is both a very simple, and a very complex problem for us.  I will use an extreme kind of example, but it is not untypical.

If you have a child, who, say, leaves the top off the toothpaste, what would you do?  Chances are you would ask the child to put the top back on, and perhaps make a joke of it.  Or maybe you wouldn't much care, because you do the same yourself.

N parents do not.  They lose control, rant, shout, maybe hit.  They tell the child how bad he or she is, and how if they do not learn to put the top back on the toothpaste nobody will ever love them ever again.

The reason why they do this is that they see everything in very black and white terms.  You are either good or bad, ok or not ok.  They spent their whole childhood learning how bad they were, and hated it.  So they spend their adult lives passing this badness on to you, so that they do not have to deal with it.

You in turn, as a child, swallow the lies.  You think that your parents must be right, and that every time you leave the toothpaste top off, you become a bad person.  This is not true.  Every time you leave the toothpaste top off, you save time the next morning.         And who cares?  The toothpaste is not spoiled, and nobody dies.

To Ns, every situation has crisis dimensions.  Every small criticism is a total rejection of them as a human being, and we inherit this from them.  It is like a poison which they first inherited and then pass on to us.

The antidote is to ask questions such as 'who cares?' or 'is anybody dead?'  Try to get a sense of proportion.  Or look at it the other way round.  Apart from Ns, is there anybody in this world who expects perfection every moment of every day?  Or anyone who achieves it?

I have an uncle who taught me that if a thing is worth doing it is worth doing badly.  Ns will only do things they can do perfectly first time, and every time.  If you find yourself giving up doing something that you enjoy, but are not particularly good at, then don't.   The reason for doing something is to enjoy it, not to excel at it.  

If you find yourself saying something daft, then just think to yourself, that is not like me.  After all, if you said daft things all the time, and were truly daft, you would never notice, would you?  So that means that you are a bright person, who sometimes says silly things.  As do we all.

     

[sleepyhead]

Welcome Butterfly! It is a tough question... I still struggle with this, but am getting better at it. Therapy helps, and so does having supportive people around you, people that you can tell how stupid you feel and they can tell you that you're not (hard to find, and harder yet to get to that level of trust). What helped me to start getting out of this thinking was a book that my therapist gave me called "Mind Over Mood", by Greenberger/Padesky. It is based on the cognitive approach (which I thought was absolute nonsense before I actually was in cognitive therapy, so you don't have to "believe" for it to work). The book is full of so called "thought records", which are basically exercises to challenge your core beliefs and change your way of thinking. This book taught me that writing a bad paper did not mean that I am a bad person!    Otherwise, you will find a lot of support and validation on this board and that really helps! Take care.

[Anonymous]

Hiya Butterfly,
Does it ever help you to think about the fact that every other person on earth does just as many, probably more, stupid things as you? Some are just better at covering them up or shifting blame.
Maybe it would be a good exercise for you if you stopped judging yourself and started judging all the knuckleheads around you for awhile.  
And I'm not just being a wise guy. I think most people with good self esteem or high confidence levels don't so much think they are better than everybody else. They just realize they're screwups in a worldwide sea of screwups


mudpuppy

[mum]

Welcom, Butterfly!  (great name!!).  Everybody struggles with this, or just about, so welcome to a very big club!!!
I think everyone here gets what you are saying.  Sleepyhead hit the nail on the head, at least from my learning.  I

t's about your core beliefs.  I had to learn what mine were before I could grow healthier.  I found that I had some pretty "wrong" beliefs about myself (I am not worthy, I have to give it all away, I am essentially an idiot, other people matter more than me, etc etc).  I got these beliefs because of a number of life experiences and learnings, but mainly because I AM a really good person and naively expected everyone else to be as kind and caring....when they were not, I figured I must be screwed up....thus the inner tape recording started.  There were lots of other things that contributed to it, too long to go into, but the bottom line is:
what do you really truly believe about yourself?

Everyone screws up.....or if you want to look at it differently: there are no mistakes really.  Just things that happen that teach us about ourselves.
Beating oneself up for things in our past is futile and not very kind to ourselves at all.  And what I learned is to really be the compassionate person I want to be, I must start by being compassionate with myself.  It never works the other way around (ok, so it took me 45 plus years to get that!!)

Ask yourself another few questions:
right NOW, what is the problem? (not past or future).  Is there anything I can do about it right NOW? (if so, do something).  Is there anything I can do about it later? (if so, schedule it for later).  Bottom line........stay in the present and you will be a lot happier.

Ask yourself: why am I in pain over what was said?  Step back out of your emotions and find out why you feel the way you do? Become an observer of yourself.  You may find that it is directly tied to core beliefs.

I think the fact that you are even questioning this puts you firmly on the path to happiness and self awareness.  Many people never question a thing about themselves (most of them are N's as we well know).  They are asleep.  Welcome to the waking world.

[Jaded911]

Hi butterfly,

It is easy for me to accept my mistakes because I know there is not one single person on the face of the earth that is perfect.  I also do not consider every mistake as a flaw, I consider each one a learning experience.

I feel that people come to forks in the road when making decisions.  If I chose to turn to the left at that time and it wasnt the right thing to do, then I know the next time that situation arises that I need to go to the right.

I learn something new from every mistake, mishap, or blunder and I try to not repeat the pattern.

[Anonymous]

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do you make yourself see that your value does not depend on your mistakes.  How do you keep on thinking highly of yourself, inspite of making mistakes?  I have a strong tendency to think there's something wrong with me whenever I think I did something wrong.  I wish I know how to get out of this mindset.

Welcome Butterfly.

I'm probably going to reiterate what's already been said but anyway...

The thought, "I'm awful because of this mistake," is just brainwashing that occurred a long time ago. You can re-brainwash yourself to think differently. That's what I did. I used to have a tape-loop in my mind that played this monologue: "You are SO stupid. What an idiot!! I can't BELIEVE what an idiot you are...you should kill yourself, y'know?,...etc...." At some point I realized this tape-loop was at one time useful. It actually prevented me from falling apart completely into some kind of psychotic state. But now it was not helping and was hurting (same realization you have).

here's what I did:

When the tape-loop started, I would say to myself, "Oh you're doing that name calling thing again. Come on, you're okay. This mistake will blow over. Calm down. We're going to find a way to fix it."  After many reps, this re-brainwashed me and now the negative tape-loop has quieted down to almost nothing.

bunny

[delphine]

WHAT??? You make mistakes??? glad I don't have that problem....

APRIL FOOLS..
These posts are all so great.. all I can do is state the same things in my words-

Accept that you are human, get comfortable with and own your humanity.
If it helps, make lists of a few choice examples of other people's humanity and foibles, ie, I like knowing that Einstein flunked 5th grade when I feel stupid...

The average millionaire has filed bankrupcy 2ce..

It feels really alive to take risks, to try new things, to stretch and grow, which means making more mistakes at first, so it helps me to view it in this perspective.

[Anonymous]

Hello Butterfly:

Welcome!

How do you make yourself see that your value does not depend on your mistakes?

As Bunny described, what some refer to as:  self-talk.

You tell yourself good things about yourself.  You remind yourself of the many times when you have done things right.  You decide to learn from your mistakes.  You decide you are valuable, regardless of them and you keep reinforcing positive ideas about yourself, to yourself, as often as you can until you no longer believe the nasty stuff that was programmed earlier.

Sound like a lot?

How do you keep on thinking highly of yourself, inspite of making mistakes?

By thinking you are not perfect.  By allowing yourself to think you are a valuable, worthwhile, person, deserving of respect, even though you are not perfect.  By expecting yourself to make mistakes because you are not perfect.  By telling yourself that you are human and so you will make errors.

I have a strong tendency to think there's something wrong with me whenever I think I did something wrong. I wish I know how to get out of this mindset.

I would bet there are a lot of people here who can relate to this and who have been there, so to speak, including me.  This is part of the tape-loop/brain-washing that Bunny described, and which I suggest was planted there by past experiences and those who caused us harm.  It then became habit to think this way (we heard it so often and we believed it because it often came from those we were supposed to trust).

The way to correct it, is to re-brain-wash/re-program the tape-loop, by repetitively repeating positive, affirming, accepting statements to ourselves, over and over, every time the negative, demeaning, discounting tape-loop starts up, as Bunny said.

The key is.......repetitively and with as much consistency as possible until....the new words/thoughts/tape-loop becomes habit and the old one fades away and is no longer the loudest voice in our head.

A way to get a head start is to make a list of stuff that you do like about yourself, some of your accomplishments, some things that you see as valuable about yourself, things you are proud of, things you do well, etc.  and read the list a couple times per day.

Another way is to take one thing you are not really all that happy about in yourself, something you can work on changing, and repeat positive suggestions to yourself, while you are relaxing and visualizing yourself in a successful state (achieving the goal).  

For example:  Say you are not active enough and you decide your goal will be:

"I will go for a walk every day".

If you have been a basic couch-potato for awhile, this will be a big accomplishment, yet it is not a huge goal, really.  It's doable.

Take 10 to 30 min, every day, relax in a comfy spot, picture yourself walking outside, or at the track, or in the mall, enjoying yourself, smiling, feeling healthier, seeing the sights around you there, feeling your energy increase as you walk, imagining how nice that is and how much better you will feel and as you imagine/picture/see these things...repeat:  

"I will go for a walk every day.
I will enjoy walking, every day.
I can easily go for a walk every day."

Always positive statements (as opposed to "I won't do this or that").

Soon you will find yourself going for a 5 min. walk, then 10 min and gradually longer and longer, and you will  enjoy it.  Basically, you are convincing yourself that you can and will do something you can easily do.
You are giving yourself a new tape-loop to run over the idea that you are not active enough.  You are giving yourself a concrete course of action and permission to take action, a little at a time.

This beats repeating:  "I'm not active enough" and will be of benefit rather than encourage bad feelings about yourself.

If the thing you want to change relates to some mistake you made because you lacked knowledge in that area, then you goal might be to read/study/gain knowledge about that area, so that you will not repeat your error.

There is virtually no habit that cannot be remodelled in this way but.......one must be committed to working at it and to putting in the effort to bring about the change.   And patience....because it takes time just as it took time for the original nasty tape-loop to take hold.

Hope this helps a little.

GFN

[longtire]

Hi Butterfly!  You are welcome here!

I have been struggling with this kind of thing for a long time and started to make some progress recently.  I think the first thing to do is recognize that there is a perfectly valid reason to believe the way you do.  At least, it was perfectly valid when you started thinking it.  By valid, I mean that these thoughts fulfilled an important purpose in your life at that time, NOT that they were necessarily correct.

For me growing up in a family with no emotional or physical support, I "believed" that there was something wrong with me.  That belief explained why my parents never told me they loved me, that I was important, that my feelings made sense, that I was valuable, that I deserved to be held or loved or comforted.  That explained why my father was non-existent as a ghost and my mother always seemed angry.  If I could only figure out what was secretly wrong with me and fix it, then I could fix all the problems in my family and I would be taken care of.  Looking back on it now, it makes perfect sense why I felt the way I did.  My basic human needs were not being met.  My belief was an explanation of the situation that included the way for me to address the problems.  That belief gave me an anchor and a source of hope as a poor replacement for relationship, support, teaching, and validation from my parents.  In truth, I had no ability as a child to get my needs met, and my parents just didn't know how.  My belief was wrong from the beginning, and yet it was absolutely VITAL to my survival.

As an adult though, this "belief" caused me to take on responsibility for ALL problems in relationships.  I still told myself that if I could figure out what is "wrong" with me and fix it, I can fix this relationship.  In truth, it takes two people working together to make a relationship work.  I only need to take responsibility for my part of the relationship.  I have tolerated a lot of bad treatment from my wife in the outdated and incorrect mindset.  The irony is, that I took responsibility I didn't have as a kid to take care of myself by taking care of people around me.  Now that I'm an adult, I do actually have full ability to take care of myself, but wasn't exercising it because I was still focused on doomed attempts to take care of myself by taking care of those around me based on this outdated belief.  I know that the details of this are different for you, but I hope you can find something useful from this.

The thought, "I'm awful because of this mistake," is just brainwashing that occurred a long time ago. You can re-brainwash yourself to think differently. That's what I did. I used to have a tape-loop in my mind that played this monologue: "You are SO stupid. What an idiot!! I can't BELIEVE what an idiot you are...you should kill yourself, y'know?,...etc...." At some point I realized this tape-loop was at one time useful. It actually prevented me from falling apart completely into some kind of psychotic state. But now it was not helping and was hurting (same realization you have).

bunny, it is impossible for me to picture you as stupid.  Your posts here are always authoritative, insightful and direct.  It is obvious to me that you are very knowledgable as well as wise.  I highly value your viewpoint and am glad you are here with us.

[Butterfly]

Thank you for making me feel welcome here   A special thank you to Kaz, October, Sleepyhead, Mudpuppy, Bunny, GFN, and Longtire for your supportive feedbacks.  I appreciate each one of them.  I apologize if I missed anyone.

I still haven't figured out yet on how to transfer a statement I want to quote onto this reply page  Can anyone plz help.  But, anyway, to answer Kaz's question.  When I was growing up, my mother was demeaning and emotionally manipulative toward me.  I remember when I was thirteen yrs-old, she told me that I was stupid for something I did.  That little girl's spirit was crushed at that moment.  I could still feel the residual pain from those words my mother said to me.  That was just one of many examples on how my spirit was deflated.  Often times, she would undermine my feelings and opinions just about anything.  Now, no one is telling me that I'm stupid or dumb.  At least not to my face But, subconsciously, I tell myself those things.

October, thanks for sharing your thoughts and analogy.  I can see myself as the little child who left the cap off the toothpaste.  And my mother would be the one ranting at me   I like what you said about the reason for doing something is to enjoy it, not to excel at it.  Many times, I forget that.  So it's good to be reminded of it.  However,  it is so difficult for me to be logical when I feel like a failure.

Sleepyhead, the book you had suggested sounds like it's something that could be very helpful to me.  In fact, I will look for the book.  Thanks a million!

Mudpuppy, I think that it will be a very beneficial exercise for me to stop stop judging myself and start judging all the knuckleheads around me for awhile.  The thing is, I don't see others as being the knuckleheads.  I see myself being the one.  This is where my logic is skewy.  I like what you said about everyone screwing up.  There are no mistakes.  Just things that happen to teach us about ourselves.  How many times do I forget this??  Far too many.

Bunny, your suggestion of making a list of people's humanity and foibles will a very impowering tool for me to keep myself level-headed on my outlook on ppl.  

GFN, I so much agree with you that the key success is repetitiveness and consistency as much as possible until the new words/thoughts/tape/loops become habit, and the old one fades away.  And is no longer the loudest voice in our heads.  I have a long ways to go still with this.  I'm hardly there yet.  Why do I feel it is so difficult for me to get any better.  For me, I want so much to grow stronger.  But something keeps on pulling me back down.  Sometimes, I feel I regress further down then where I left off.  I don't see much progress in inner strength.  This realization makes me feel so depressed and sapped any ounce of energy and hope I had.  I feel like I'm climbing a mountain but I can't seem to be moving any closer to the pinnacle.  Your suggestions helped me much.  Thanks.

Longtire, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.  I can totally relate to you of growing up with a father who was physically present, but absent in every other way.  How could a void like that be ever filled??

Since I was a teenager, I always felt depressed and never really found that inner peace and happiness of being who I am.  But recently, this depression has gotten worse.  I feel depress over many things.  I'm on the verge of turning 30yrs-old.  Looking back at my life, I feel like I failed in so many areas, and haven't accomplished the things that I wanted to accomplish before I hit 30.  Mostly, due to poor choices I've made.  Now, here I am, almost 30 and still feel like 21 in terms of accomplishments.  I feel like such a failure in everyway.  This feeling makes me have no energy to move forward, b/c it just sucks the life out of me, both emotionally and psychologically.  Has anyone felt this way?  How did you find the inner strength to move forward??

[longtire]

Butterfly, a couple more things I thought of that might help.  As persistent as the unintentional voice whispering negative things to you is, the intentional voice you replace it with that states positive things will be ten times as persistent!  As for 30, I've read that people don't reach their final emotional maturity until around 30 (if they're lucky, not N!).  Maybe you needed to get to this point to have every resource available to you before taking this on.  I know that for me 30 was a big milestone when I wasn't even close to where I wanted to be.  Kids in the 60's said don't trust anyone over 30.  I don't think life really starts until you hit 30.  (I know I can get people to back me up on this last part. )

[Kaz]

Hi Butterfly,
I also had a demeaning and emotionally manipulative mother and she also succeeded in 'crushing my spirit' at the age of 15. It was over my choice of career (nothing outrageous, just to go to Fine Art school and maybe become a teacher). I use now those exact same words to describe the feeling at that time. I gave up then, didn't put any effort anymore into school, didn't care about much at all. I was probably depressed.
To cut a long story short, that spirit that is you, is still in there. Nurture it and bring it back to where it ought to be. (With the help of meds and therapy if need be).
You may not be where you thought you'd be at the age of 30. So what? Since when is there a rule book for achievements to be done and finished by 30? I'm 50 and starting a new career, it's great!

Another question for you Butterfly, are you in contact with your mother still?

[Anonymous]

I feel like I failed in so many areas, and haven't accomplished the things that I wanted to accomplish before I hit 30.  Mostly, due to poor choices I've made.  Now, here I am, almost 30 and still feel like 21 in terms of accomplishments.  I feel like such a failure in everyway.  This feeling makes me have no energy to move forward, b/c it just sucks the life out of me, both emotionally and psychologically.  Has anyone felt this way?  How did you find the inner strength to move forward??

What I would do is make a boundary that I can no longer say this stuff anymore. Not even if it's true. It is now taboo. Why? Because this reinforces the brainwashing and creates a depressed, tired, life-energy-sucked-out situation. You may have to give up the familiarity of these thoughts. It won't be easy but each time you observe yourself saying these putdowns, stop and say something different like "Today is the first day of the rest of my life" (seriously..). Do you think you can?  

bunny