Engagement or transcendence, and effect on voice/vitality

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

BG, I'm wondering if you're trying to succeed at the biggest challenge God gives us.......which is to love your enemies??

You are to be commended for trying so hard.  It is a big challenge, to say the least.  I do believe it is possible to meet this challenge but, unless one is as perfect as our Devine Maker, we are unlikely to excel at it, while we are still in the grips of our enemies paws/claws/fangs/etc, especially.

Maybe we can call out for God to forgive them for they don't know what they're doing, but to really feel true love, in our hearts, for those who are currently hurting us ...takes miraculous goodness and means not loving ourselves at all, at that point.  I doubt that was the intention of the challenge (love your enemies but nevermind yourself.....let yourself be abused and go to pot and fall appart and turn to mush....take the pain....but love those enemies and keep them supplied well. ).

The creator I believe in wouldn't wish that on us poor imperfect souls.

Perhaps, as was said in another thread awhile back (was it you Mudpup?), loving our enemies is...sometimes...as simple as ...not hating them?

Maybe....loving our enemies is praying for their souls and their mental/emotional health?

Maybe it isn't really a deep feeling of caring, understanding, giving, unconditional and absolute love.....or something like that love that is expected to flow from our hearts to our enemies, at least at the time we are still being abused by them?

Maybe loving them from a distance is the kindest thing we can do for them and for ourselves....because it takes away their opportunity to harm us further, and it gives us a chance to recover from our pain, and to begin to forgive them for causing it??

GFN

[Anonymous]

I find there is a spiritual component to this quest to transcend my base instinct to remain engaged (and enraged) within the N-family.   And I am open to the idea that the vitality that I felt during/after more direct confrontation may have been a sort of counterfeit, that must be avoided despite its allure, if I'm to get to the desired level of mental health.

Is the sense of vitality exciting because 'the game is afoot'? Or is it a feeling of confidence and empowerment? And what's your desired level of mental health?

But the spiritual question is: can that disengagement (or whatever degree of continued contact) come from a place of genuine love?

Love is kind of subjective. Do you mean love of their spirit? Love of their personality traits? I ask myself, "Is this in everyone's highest interests?" That's how I decide what to do.


bunny

[BG]

mudpuppy and GFN -

Thanks for your posts -- very good stuff in terms of helping me grapple with this topic.

Just my opinion but I think you are intellectualizing this too much. It seems like you are over analyzing what you may already know in your heart. Forget your head for a minute. What do your instincts and heart tell you?

You are correct: I am intellectualizing...it is one of my hold-out coping mechanisms...I'm getting close, but still not there, in peeling away the remaining onion-skins of denial strategies that I've used my entire life to avoid the pain of this...I've used and given up drugs, drinking, depression (and its meds), even caffiene.  I'm down to my intellectualizing and occasional bouts of chocolate...and given that both of these aren't that effective in holding back the pain, I've been pretty sad about this entire situation (not depressed: I get that way when I supress the sadness, anger, etc...) and I'm wondering how long that sadness will stay with me, before it gets diluted with moments of sustained happiness, whimsy.  

Back to the 'vitality' theme -- I'm seeing some vivid colors (sadness, anger), much more so than when I was depressed, but I'm wondering when/where I'll start seeing the rest of the spectrum again.  My hope is that I will have eventually have a more balanced emotional experience -- bouts of sadness, happiness, anger, affection, etc, etc...and my effort to articulate some path of 'transcendence' (or other definition) is my desire to move as quickly as I can to that point...while knowing all the time I suppose that you can't hurry these things...I guess I just don't want to get stuck on some false summit, and wake up in another 15 years realizing that I never quite got to the bottom of things...and in the meantime having a less-than-alive life.

To your question: my heart/instinct tell me...through some tears at this moment, btw...that I may never even see my blood relatives again...and that may be the best thing in the world for me and my own family.   There is a part of me that wants it to be recorded somewhere/somehow in the ages that I really did try for a different outcome.  There is a unique type of unfairness/pain that seems common to these situations -- that efforts to do the right thing are met with effective slander.  I've given up wanting justice, I guess I would just like credit for having tried my best.  

I spent about 12 years in serious depression starting from when my *heart* likely learned about the true nature of my birth family's problem,(when I reenaged with a bother who was ostracized from the family in part due to his schizophrenia) and ending last August when my *mind* finally 'saw' what my heart had seen years earlier.  And the past several months I've been getting these two to compare notes and figure out where to go now.

Love is hoping and praying for the best for someone. Your intentions toward them are good not evil. Therefore if you need to, you can love someone from afar. You can detach from their nutty world and
still love them.

This perspective from CS Lewis is very valuable -- do you have the book/essay where its from and/or can you recommend a good starting point for reading Lewis?  I remember seeing a Lewis quote I think it was in Peck's book People of Lie about how our job is to weed the fields we know (of evil), and not worry about the weather that might happen for future generations...that had a certain resonance.

[GFN - your post came in as I was writing this next paragraph...very timely...I was writing the following on 'loving enemies']

And while I may still be intellectualizing all this, curious your collective thoughts:  I believe in the transformational power of the Christian teaching to love and forgive one's enemies...what strikes me in these N-situations is how to regard the assorted players?    For example, the source of much of the dysfunction is my N-mother, and her actions effectively turn 2 of my brothers into active players in 'her side', against me -- her and their actions in the grand scheme are petty and in the long-term will cease to harm me emotionally, and likely harm my own family very little, especially if I disengage completely.  But the actions have all the appearances of intentional malice...very much like an 'enemy'.   Do I regard my mother as an 'enemy'...or do I orient my thinking to regard her as a deeply flawed person who can't help do what she is doing?  By considering her as an enemy, for the purposes of arriving at some place of spiritual forgiveness, do I end up regarding myself along some peer level with her?  Conversely...if I just take a rational view that her actions stem from a clinical disorder and thus shouldn't be taken personally...do I miss an opportunity for spiritual growth?

BG, I'm wondering if you're trying to succeed at the biggest challenge God gives us.......which is to love your enemies??

I like and think I can follow the suggestions of both mudpup and GFN, in terms of safe ways to love those who may harm us...thank you for this input, as it feels like it is finding the right place in my spirit, at the right time.

I was reading some writings of the late Rabbi Abraham Heschel last night -- in a rough paraphrase, he speaks of the profound importance, even blessing of struggle for any individual.   I lack the power much less desire to sacrifice myself (and wife/kids) in an attempt to perfectly love people whose actions will ultimately consume me...but the struggle to come to my own imperfect answer for -how- to love them as best -I- can (which may be from afar, by praying for their improved mental health, etc) is the spiritual question that I regard as a blessing along the lines of what Heschel writes.  It will be hard but I think manageable, and ultimately enriching, or vitalizing.

BG

[Anonymous]

my heart/instinct tell me...through some tears at this moment, btw...that I may never even see my blood relatives again...and that may be the best thing in the world for me and my own family. There is a part of me that wants it to be recorded somewhere/somehow in the ages that I really did try for a different outcome.

I can deeply relate to this and I can only tell you that these are losses that must be grieved.  There is no way past grieving except to grieve.

As to getting credit for trying or wanting things to be different.....who do you want that credit to come from??

 

Do I regard my mother as an 'enemy'...or do I orient my thinking to regard her as a deeply flawed person who can't help do what she is doing? By considering her as an enemy, for the purposes of arriving at some place of spiritual forgiveness, do I end up regarding myself along some peer level with her? Conversely...if I just take a rational view that her actions stem from a clinical disorder and thus shouldn't be taken personally...do I miss an opportunity for spiritual growth?

This is way too intelligent for me.  People who hurt you......if you pray for them.....if you want them to be healthy....if you wish the best for them.....is this not loving them?  Does your spirit grow from loving?

Think of them in whatever terms are most easily digested but not with hate or malice.....and you will get the credit you seek.

(((((((((BG)))))))

Dry your tears.

GFN

[Anonymous]

Dry your tears.

Pretty stupid of me to tell you to go ahead and grieve, one minute, and to dry your tears the next eh?

What I mean is......don't blame you.....

You have tried your best and do wish there was a better way and would have loved to see a better outcome, etc, etc...

Your tears need to shed and be shed and then ....they will be dried and done with.

If that makes any more sence than my last contradiction.

GFN

[mum]

I love the thoughts on this thread...all very meaty and heart felt.  Thank you all.
When I first decided to heal....I picked up the book "The Art of Happiness" by the Dali Lama (and an American doctor as well).
It was the begining of my "awakening" as it were, and I knew what I read made sense, but I didn't know how I would ever "get it", as in: feel that way myself.
He says "love your enemies", something I had also heard growing up in a rather spiritual family....and even in my Catachism as a child.  
It had always sounded to me like an "invite" to any N/abuser to come and get me....I just love pain!!!
It was not until I went through the toughest year or so of my life  (with my N ex husband biting at my heels as I tried to become happy) that I started to realize what that all means. He is still at it, as many of you know, and getting worse (because perhaps, I am so happy) but I NEVER would have figured  out what I now know unless I had this struggle.  I know for sure this learning would still be waiting in some other form, waiting for me to wake up and learn it!
What have I figured out?  That I am a good person who never wants to hurt anyone, and I deserve love. That pain is simply a sign to tell us to notice something and not necessarily "bad" and to be avoided or escaped.  That I can change my own feelings and thoughts even if I can't change another's. That MY opinion matters. That I am a powerful person.  that everything is a choice.
And a whole lot more....but mostly, my happines right now is because of this "enemy" and the pain he presented and I learned from.

Don't mean to sound preachy, and I am not always this "up" and know full well how hard the road is....I just want everyone to know that JOY and HAPPINESS is our birthright......and pain is there not to stop it or take that away, but to LEAD us!!!  I love all you guys (non-gendered expression of course).

[October]

I am reading Daniel Deronda at present.  

In it there is a story about the Buddha, about how he came across a starving tigress and her cubs one day, and he gave himself to her to be eaten, to save their lives.  The tigress was very grateful, and thanked him, and then ate him up.  

Nice as an allegory, but rather impractical as an example for everyday life.  

I think we are called to -perhaps - feel sorry for the tigress in our lives, but then to run away and let her find someone else to devour.  Not so enlightened, perhaps, but maybe more functional if we have others depending on us.

[BG]

Bunny -

Is the sense of vitality exciting because 'the game is afoot'? Or is it a feeling of confidence and empowerment? And what's your desired level of mental health?

Good questions...and I'm not really sure myself so explaining it will help drawn it out.  

Much of this vitality issue for me comes from an observation from my very understanding wife...who loved and accepted me as a functionally-medicated yet depressed husband/father for many years and was wonderfully surprised to see a new energized side of me emerge after I confronted my extended family members last August.  But as the extended family isolated us, my exuberance has settled into more of a somber slog...not quite depressed, but not much happiness and whimsy either and she is trying to get a handle herself on how long this might last, as it has put a damper on our the mood of our relationship.  (BTW - we are doing some practical 'fun' things, including a dinner/play tonight, to fake-it-until-we-make-it into a less serious mood).  Okay...the reason I explain this...if that energy I experienced in August was the result of reaching some legitimate breakthrough/vitality in my mental health, I have since blackslid, and I want to figure out why.  But if it was some sort of spasm produced by releasing years of pent-up emotion...it might be viewed as an initial one-time spike, followed by a healthy deflation then a long gradual climb up through emotions, in which case, I'm on track more-or-less and not as worried that I've gone astray/backslid.

Okay, so your questions:

Is the sense of vitality exciting because 'the game is afoot'?

Partly yes...throughout history/literature there are moments where soldiers describe unique degrees of feeling alive, while amidst the most life-threatening circumstances of war.  To some degree, almost a blood-lust of battle, there was that adreneline-type excitement to having finally engaged in the fight.  BTW -- to the extent this was what was going on, I regard it more on the 'dark' side of the energy spectrum...the sensation is real enough, but not something that I'd want to sustain in that form.

Or is it a feeling of confidence and empowerment?

This I'm not sure...I did -feel- both confident and empowered, and presently feel much less so of each...but were these sustainable versions of these feelings, or more the result of a conflict-based passion?  I don't know.  My sense is that the slow process I'm going through now is building a deeper confidence and personal quiet power that will be stronger and more defensible in the long term...in otherwords truer.  But looked at it one way, yes I did feel a vitality that included confidence, that I no longer do, at least not with the intensity.

And what's your desired level of mental health?

My mental health goal is to have the capacity to feel full-spectrum emotions -- the emphasis (happy, sad, etc) may vary depending on what life dishes out on any given day, month, year, but having the ability to experience a feeling that is appropriate to the moment is what I'm reaching for.  With that comes a spiritual dimension that I'm still trying to articulate.

Love is kind of subjective. Do you mean love of their spirit? Love of their personality traits?

How I meant 'love' in the context you are asking about is sort of the do-no-harm-back regardless of the hard done to me, type.  I see the potential pitfalls to this (as mudpup pointed out) since withholding N-supply by itself causes the N a type of pain/harm, akin to not enabling a drunk with $ to buy his bottle.  I can pretty easily get over worrying about the anguish my N-mother may feel as I continue to disengage, since my primary concern is myself and wife/kids.  But I want to do this as gently as possible...perhaps minimize the harm, while knowing there may be inevitable harm.  And since I don't think N-mother or brothers will see any of this for what I see it as, all I may be left with is some intangible -intent-...hard to prove, hard to hang-my-hat-on, but if I can keep my intent as pure as I can (imperfectly) in spite of the darkness of action and perhaps intent of these other family members, that might make a tiny difference in the cosmic order.  Or at least model something akin to a spiritual love to my own children.

A topic for another thread, but comes out of this question..how many of us have had to learn/relearn/teach-ourselves what 'love' is, if we came from N-parents?   Here I'm weighing the issue with a straight face of whether my mother might be properly considered an 'enemy'.  Given these types of families, where do we get our benchmarks from?  Because its clear that there are many many loving compassionate people on this discussion group, and in my own life, I feel a strong and genuine love for my children and wife that I can't trace directly back to my parents as having instilled in me.

BG

[Anonymous]

Hi BG,
From your posts it is plain you already have all the answers you need. You are simply in the process of digesting and implementing them. That can be a pretty painful process.

I'm wondering how long that sadness will stay with me, before it gets diluted with moments of sustained happiness, whimsy.

Different for everyone. But I really think the more we throw ourselves into our nuclear family and submerge our sadness in the joy that comes from playing with our kids and making a healthy family with our spouses the less we grieve what we lost. Or maybe the less we feel it as it is healed by time.

I've given up wanting justice, I guess I would just like credit for having tried my best.

I wasted years trying to reason with my brother. I spent nearly a year trying to talk to my mom about how she was helping him. I finally decided to write a letter stating my position, and laying out what had occurred. I gave them the opportunity to stop doing what they were/are doing and there's nothing more I can do than that. It is in writing so no one can come to me in a few years and say I never gave them the opportunity to stop. When your good faith effort is rebuffed the ball is in their court. Unfortunately they only play on their side of the court.

This perspective from CS Lewis is very valuable -- do you have the book/essay where its from and/or can you recommend a good starting point for reading Lewis?

I think it is from 'Mere Christianity' but I'm not certain. There is no better starting point for Lewis than Mere Christianity. The Screwtape Letters is very entertaining and very perceptive regarding evil. The Great Divorce is also excellent along with The Pilgrims Regress. I like his allegorical books more than his philosophical. I'm muddling through The Problem of Pain at the moment. All of those with the exception of Mere Christianity and the Problem of Pain are allegorical in nature. He had an unparallelled knack for analogy and turn of phrase.
Here's one of my faves by Lewis,

Among other things, 'I disliked their hymns, which I considered fifth-rate poems set to sixth-rate music', he writes. 'But as I went on I saw the great merit of it. I came up against different people of quite different outlooks and realised that the hymns (which were just sixth-rate music) were, nevertheless, being sung with devotion and benefit by an old saint in elastic-sided boots in the opposite pew and then you realise that you aren't fit to clean those boots. It gets you out of your solitary conceit'.

It took me awhile to realize I wasn't fit to clean most of my fellow believer's boots also. Pretty humbling when you do.

Do I regard my mother as an 'enemy'...or do I orient my thinking to regard her as a deeply flawed person who can't help do what she is doing?

I lack the power much less desire to sacrifice myself (and wife/kids) in an attempt to perfectly love people whose actions will ultimately consume me

I think you are possibly confusing perfect forgiveness or perfect love with excusing their behavior. When somone repents after a DUI, God forgives them of the eternal consequences of their actions. They still have to go to jail. When you forgive your mother for harming you that doesn't mean you have to go back and get kicked in the teeth again.
After all what good does it do your mother if you forgive her anyway? She still hasn't made peace with God. If the perpetrator of harm is unrepentent, then forgiveness is solely for the benefit of the forgiver not the forgiven, isn't it?

 mudpup

[bunny]

Okay...the reason I explain this...if that energy I experienced in August was the result of reaching some legitimate breakthrough/vitality in my mental health, I have since blackslid, and I want to figure out why.  But if it was some sort of spasm produced by releasing years of pent-up emotion...it might be viewed as an initial one-time spike, followed by a healthy deflation then a long gradual climb up through emotions, in which case, I'm on track more-or-less and not as worried that I've gone astray/backslid.

It's very unusual for someone to change suddenly and permanently just because they confronted their family. I wouldn't call your reversion  backsliding. You are just reverting to your regular self. You can change somewhat but my feeling is that the changes won't be that dramatic. I hope your wife can accept you as you are.

BTW -- to the extent this was what was going on, I regard it more on the 'dark' side of the energy spectrum...the sensation is real enough, but not something that I'd want to sustain in that form.

What do you mean by the dark side?

My mental health goal is to have the capacity to feel full-spectrum emotions -- the emphasis (happy, sad, etc) may vary depending on what life dishes out on any given day, month, year, but having the ability to experience a feeling that is appropriate to the moment is what I'm reaching for.  With that comes a spiritual dimension that I'm still trying to articulate.

What would be a feeling appropriate to the moment that you don't experience?

How I meant 'love' in the context you are asking about is sort of the do-no-harm-back regardless of the hard done to me, type.  I see the potential pitfalls to this (as mudpup pointed out) since withholding N-supply by itself causes the N a type of pain/harm, akin to not enabling a drunk with $ to buy his bottle.

Let's say a child is angrily demanding and screaming for a bunch of toys in Toys R Us and you don't think it's a good idea to buy them. Is that harm? Let's say someone is demanding that you give up your feelings, your rights, your independence, your time, your family, your money, etc. And you decide not to give up those things. Is that harm?

But I want to do this as gently as possible...perhaps minimize the harm, while knowing there may be inevitable harm.

I don't think gentleness is going to work with these people. So may I suggest firmness. It isn't mean, it isn't harmful. It helps everyone.

A topic for another thread, but comes out of this question..how many of us have had to learn/relearn/teach-ourselves what 'love' is, if we came from N-parents?

I don't know what love is. At least I don't experience love as it's usually described.

Here I'm weighing the issue with a straight face of whether my mother might be properly considered an 'enemy'.

It depends on what she's done and is doing. Perhaps she is an enemy. Most likely she is just a sick person.

bunny