Author Topic: The meaning of life ???  (Read 8011 times)

October

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The meaning of life ???
« on: May 08, 2005, 04:51:47 PM »
I am torn today between two ways of thinking.  Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.

I live by the first rule myself, pretty well as much as I can.  But all around me I meet the second.  Am I doing something wrong?

Black and white thinking, my t would say, and that we are all a combination of the two.  But I don't see much combination thinking around, to be honest.

What do others think?

Stormchild Guesting

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2005, 05:17:51 PM »
I'm not in a terribly optimistic frame of mind, but with that disclaimer, I'll tell you what I truly believe:

we are intended to work together, and love one another, and cooperate.

we can choose instead to work against one another and compete where competition makes no sense at all.

people who pick the first way are people who see others as human beings, as their equals before God and one another when it comes down to it.

people who pick the second way are people who see others as inferiors, or even as appliances and commodities. And need to see them that way.

Martin Buber called this "I-Thou" relating, versus "I-You" or I-It" relating. He felt that I-Thou was the ideal level, but that most of us who care, and think about what we do, cannot manage I-Thou all the time everywhere - it takes too much out of us. So we do some I-thou, and most I-you, but we try not to cause harm in our I-you relating.

He felt that there was no justification for I-It relating at all. It leads to things like the Holocaust.

I think many many people don't really want to work very hard mentally or otherwise, and don't want their precious selves compromised in any way, so they head for the second way, the I-It paradigm, from the minute their little bitty feet hit the ground.

Most sound childrearing seems to me to be focused on making the children aware that the I-Thou and the I-You ways exist, and then persuading them not to pick I-It.

I've never in my life seen a single person who had to be taught selfishness... but I've seen many who have never learned empathy.

You might like "I and Thou"... he was a marvelous philosopher and theologian. He is the one who wrote, "All true living is meeting." And he's a lot more optimistic about the human condition than I am  :D

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2005, 05:26:17 PM »
Quote from: Stormchild Guesting

You might like "I and Thou"... he was a marvelous philosopher and theologian. He is the one who wrote, "All true living is meeting." And he's a lot more optimistic about the human condition than I am  :D


Is this in a book?  I would like to read more about it, if I can.  I have one very close friend who on rare occasions uses 'thee' and 'thou', in  moments of particular emotional closeness, and it is always very touching, because it is unique in my experience of friends.  

Thanks for a new perspective on this, Stormchild.

Stormchild Guesting

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2005, 05:30:15 PM »
It sure is. Buber survived the Holocaust... he was Chasidic, I think.

So he wrote first in German, which still uses I and thou . Called the book "Ich Und Du".

The English translation is "I And Thou"... author, Martin Buber. There is a lot of sacred poetry in it. It is a very mystical book. I love it.

Is your friend Quaker? The Quakers I know still use 'thee' in some settings, which overwhelmed me when I found out, because I do too.

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2005, 06:01:07 PM »
Quote from: Stormchild Guesting


The English translation is "I And Thou"... author, Martin Buber. There is a lot of sacred poetry in it. It is a very mystical book. I love it.

Is your friend Quaker? The Quakers I know still use 'thee' in some settings, which overwhelmed me when I found out, because I do too.


No, he is Anglo-Catholic, like me, and very spiritual.  It comes out of spiritual moments, combined with emotional intimacy.  Meetings of the soul.   :oops:   I have  never dared try the same in return, but I am always touched when he says these things.  Very nice.

Must see if S has a copy of this.  He is almost certain to, because he has a wonderful theological library all his very own.   :)   If he doesn't, then perhaps I should buy a copy in German.   8)  :oops:

Mati

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2005, 06:13:17 PM »
Storm

I am a Quaker and have Quaker friends who use the thee and thou all of the time but I do not use it. I do not believe that the principle applies today but have no objection to anyone using it, in fact I think it souns nice.

mum

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2005, 06:17:04 PM »
I went to my daughter's friend's Bat Mitzvah yesterday.  I was raised Catholic, and although had been to many Bat and Bar Mitzvahs, I was, for the first time, totally engrossed in the Torah commentary written for the selections they used.  There was one whole chapter that blew me away...all with extremely universal concepts of the divinity of all beings....that "separation" type thoughts are what causes our pain in this world.
Today they are remembering the 60 year anniversary of the liberation of the death camps.  So at the close of her Bat Mitzvah service, they spent some time with some beautiful writings on the subject.  What struck me most, was the recurring theme of light within darkness, of unfallable faith.
This is what being human is all about.  Love, compassion, finding our way to be both loving and compassionate in a rather harsh place.  These obstacles to this oneness are indeed of our own making....how we overcome them is what makes life worth living.

Stormchild Guesting

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2005, 06:20:19 PM »
Mati, I am so tickled to learn that about you! I already knew you were way cool. It's a nifty new fact, though.

I think we're all mystics on this board...  :D  8)  :D  8)  :D  8)

Mati

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2005, 06:30:34 PM »
:D  :lol:  :D  :lol:

Anonymous

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Re: The meaning of life ???
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2005, 08:05:38 PM »
Quote from: October
I am torn today between two ways of thinking.  Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.


I see it as a combo. Toward others, the highest behavior is being compassionate. However, we are existentially alone with our psyche and will die alone. Many times we're on our own because there is no mind reading and everyone is just trying to get through the day. So we can also be compassionate toward ourselves. I accept that many people are on a low level of awareness. Some of them can be reached through continuous compassionate understanding but who has time for that. Sometimes you just have to throw up your hands.

bunny

delphine

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2005, 10:43:29 AM »
Just dropped by today and found this fabulous discussion!
Quote
I am torn today between two ways of thinking. Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.


I think we are all essentially alone but also, as human beings, we are so relational in nature that we cannot see ourselves or know ourselves except in relation to each other.

Stormchild:

Quote
we are intended to work together, and love one another, and cooperate.

we can choose instead to work against one another and compete where competition makes no sense at all.


I really love that thought and some days I believe it- that there is an intention greater than us who designed human beings. I like Buckminster Fuller's statement-
I don't have any "good" or "bad" people. You and I didn't design people. God designed people. What I am trying to do is to discover why God included humans in Universe.
I'm trying to find out what God permits us progressively to know and preferrably to do if we humans are to continue in Universe."

I had a fascinating discussion while teaching what was supposed to be an improv theatre class for 12-15 yr olds. The boys were into it and the girls were very inhibited. I said, "It seems like there is girl energy here and boy energy here, what's that about?" What followed was an amazing conversation where the boys talked about how they are afraid of girls and the girls talked about how they are afraid OF EACH OTHER. They are afraid of what will be said behind their backs.
I dont think we're progressed completely beyond that as adults. I think we are basically alone, afraid of each other, scared that we are or will be judged, and that we build intimacy with a few people or groups in order to feel less alone, less afraid. And when I look at the world around me it is very difficult to see evidence that we were intentfully DESIGNED to function lovingly and cooperatively. There seem to be a few oasis of this amidst a desert of harsh power mongering.

Thanks for the discussion, and glad to know that most people here are the "oasis" type!
Love Ya!

Delphine

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2005, 11:21:42 AM »
Quote from: delphine
And when I look at the world around me it is very difficult to see evidence that we were intentfully DESIGNED to function lovingly and cooperatively. There seem to be a few oasis of this amidst a desert of harsh power mongering.


This is what I see around me.  I see a desert.  And I am in the middle of it, feeling as if I am the odd one out.  I am no saint, but compared with people around  me, I feel like - well, homo sapiens surrounded by neanderthals.  Sorry to sound arrogant.   :oops:  :oops:   I don't mean superior at all, just seeing the world in a different way, one of co-operation rather than beating one another over the head.

So, how is it best to survive?  Whcih should we teach our children to be?  Should we sell our souls and join in with everyone else, or continue as we are, lone voices in the wilderness?  Perhaps it is not a choice at all.  We have to be who we were born to be, as far as we can achieve it.

Anonymous

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2005, 11:28:57 AM »
Hi everyone,

Quote
I am torn today between two ways of thinking. Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.

Seems like we're to be the first, so we don't become the second.
 Or perhaps we are born the second and try to become the first because the second is a pretty awful thing to be.
The first 30 years of my life I was alone and felt it.
But after I met my wife, I have never felt alone since then. Even when far away from her, I can feel her presence. I guess most couples aren't like this? I don't know maybe they are. Anybody else feel this way? Like your soul is dissolved together with someone else's? Mother's and children?

October,
What is the second of the two great commandments?
"Love your neighbor as thyself"
That sounds a lot more like your first option than the second.
And the first commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul"
That's the second reason I never feel alone anymore. Because I always feel His presence.
And if I live the first commandment it gives me a lot more strength to do the second.

mudpup

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2005, 11:31:47 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous

What is the second of the two great commandments?
"Love your neighbor as thyself"

mudpup


I treat my 'neighbours' a lot better than I treat myself.  And my 3D 'neighbours' treat me a lot worse than they treat themselves.

There are not many places which are like this; where most people treat others as they would wish to be treated, and the end result is a place of safety and rest.  And of learning.  

But apart from such (invaluable) experiences, most of life it reinforces the same message: others are better/deserve more/need looking after.  I am invisible.

Sometimes the commandments don't help.   :lol:

Anonymous

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2005, 12:02:36 PM »
October,

If most people were good to each other He wouldn't have had to call them 'commandments', right? :?

I truly believe that there is a reward for trying to stick to the commandments. Maybe not in this lifetime, but in the one that counts. The one that lasts.
 I think He notices when you treat your neighbors better than yourself. I think He licks His finger,  reaches up and slides another marker to the credit side of your account, and says "Another jewel for October."

mudpup