Help!?!

[Menow]

I am really not liking myself. I so appreciate all the feedback I am getting from you all. As I have been thinking about my relationships and my life right now. I realize that I have spent my life angry. Angry at the world, angry at God, and angry at my family, and there is a place for that. And God knows I have reason. But I have not really looked at my faults. I think it is time.

I have been on the defensive for so long and been wronged for so long, that I just defend all of me. Even the ugly parts. I think that weighs on me somehow. That because I was abused does not give me a free pass to act or be anyway I want. Which is how I have been living. I know for the most part I am kind and caring. But I can also be judgemental and a know it all. Not really listening to others. I want to be a contribution to society. A positive one. I have felt so neglected and so empty that I had nothing to offer.

I am just thinking about it, I am not going to run out and save the world. I just want to be an understanding person. Not a know it all, judgemental one. I am not going to give my power away to anyone. I am just looking at what kind of person I want to be.

Menow

[mum]

((((((Menow)))))))
I hear you.  I've been there, and some days, I'm right back there, down in the mud, saying,"damnit, I thought I wasn't going to do this anymore!!"
But KNOWING I am in the mud is HUGE!!!  Because then I can make a choice...to stay there and explore the mud (very advisable at times) and figure out how I got here agian.....or to pick my sorry butt up, once again and FORGIVE myself for falling down.
Falling in the mud is an integral and inevitable part of being human.
Accepting that about yourself (about everyone) is so relieving and empowering.  You get to get back up.  You get to fall down again.
It's all OKAY!!!
Finding compassion for myself seemed way harder than finding it for others.....but I found out, when I really looked hard, that in doing this repeatedly, I was ANGRY!!!!  Well, why wouldn't I be?
I was tough on myself, easy on others and I kept falling in the damn mud!!!!
Realizing that forgiving MYSELFis where healing starts.....well that made all the difference for me.
Am I "healed"? Who knows? I think I am healthier.  Do I have it all figured out? I doubt it!
All I know is you are not alone. AND you can start, right where you are, by being compassionate with yourself.

(((((menow)))))) You'll be okay.

[Menow]

Mum,

Thanks for the ((((  ))))))) Just what I needed. I HAVE to forgive myself it is the only way. I have bruised, beaten, lied to, cajoled myself enough. Whatever you said, really made me feel better and acceptable as I am. Thank you. I feel like all I can do is allow myself to be as I am right now.

I had to go to a party this afternoon and I HATED it. Believe me, I have no trouble doing what I want and this was one of those rare occasions that I had to attend. So I did. UGH! But I am back now in my cozy little apt. All me all tonight, all day tom. Just me. It feels good. I dont have to deal with anyone but me!

So thanks again, mum, I am really not sure what you said, but it gave me sooo much comfort. Like you get it. Like you understand. I feel accepted as I am, dirt and all.    Thanks.

Menow

[jophil]

Hi Menow you are right when you say that you need to focus on you and let him alone for a while -

It was a revelation to me when I got to understand that caring for myself was SO much simpler and less exhausting than trying to 'help' other people who were not receptive to my largess. Many times I did resent their apparent indifference to my 'wisdom' - I saw them as callous and ungrateful and foolishly deaf to my 'speeches' which were so well conceived but seemed to be unwelcome.

Yeh, I knew it all too -I just did not know that giving must come from a position of personal 'surplus' or abundance.In other words, give to others when your own needs have been fulfilled and you have energy left over. This concept is rather different from the standard Christian position which encourages us to give to others at our personal expense.

Just a thought -John.

[Menow]

Jophil,

I totally agree. And I love how you put it. It really helps. Yes, I have definitely felt the same way... how could they reject my speeches. Maybe because they have nothing to do with the person I am giving them to and everything to do with me!

While reading your post, I realized that with Mike, I do give to get. And I think he does the same thing. We are both really needy, not giving to ourselves... so we both get resentful about not getting enough attention etc.

I NEED TO GIVE TO MYSELF, before I get in any relationship. And I more  more committed to that right now. I think we or I get it in my head that I need someone, or I am not okay... my child. I need to conciously wake up, look around and tell myself the truth that I am fine on my own, more than fine. I just need to keep reminding me and my child about that fact.

Oh and dont even get me started on my christian soap box, martyr martyr  martyr. I dont mean to offend any christians in here, but I grew up catholic and pretty much hating myself, born sinner, shameful to be human, and all that. I think it is against the christian law to be "selfish" or what they should really say, it is against the law to be POWERFUL because then we might not NEED the church.

Thanks, John, for all your words and reflections. They really help me.

Menow

[jophil]

Hi Menow - a couple of points that occured to me just now.

Firstly, I think that it is likely that children, who grow up in a family where there is a 'free and easy flow' of love and acceptance , probably choose adult partners who deliver much the same. These people are the lucky ones.
 Conversely, those of use who had love denied us or had it given conditionally in return for obedience or as 'payment' for certain behavior or performance, have been set up to 'work' for love.It is not too hard to see how children who had to earn or extract love as children would continue this tradition in their adult relatiohships. They/we experience love as a reward which surely must follow our efforts to 'help' others.
However what happens if our adult partner does not play this love game our way and deliver the love that we expect ? I guess that we are let down and hurt and  feel cheated out of what is (to our mind) rightfully ours. And the resentment starts to built and we try 'helping' even harder.    You all know how it goes after that.

Just a thought  - John.

[Unlucky Ducky]

Hi Menow and Jophil

I'm Christian, and I agree that the concept of giving and loving is  distorted in many churches. I don't go to those churches and I don't give them my money or time. Simple problem simple solution. Feed the things you want to grow, don't feed the things you don't. But you are right about the damage that is done to some people.

On the other hand, AA was started by Christians. That looks like a pretty good example of what real giving and loving should be. Including its self restraint. It doesn't try to convert anyone. It just tries to help people and lets them decide what that means. And look how many meetings happen in churches.

Menow, you asked how it felt to tell off the guy who was emotionally abusing me. It felt awful. I was sick to my stomach and shaking and couldn't wait to get away from him. But after his mean, critical putdown, when I suddenly realized what was going on it was like some strong person stepped into my skin and said what had to be said to break the spell. Right then I felt strong and safe. Then I got out of there and went home and never saw him again and felt sick and shaky and scared.

I found out later that you hand on to others what you don't hand back to the people who abuse you. Abusiveness is a disease. You can catch it if you get exposed to it.

This is a really cool thread. Thanks for talking about this stuff.

[mum]

I am really not sure what you said, but it gave me sooo much comfort. Like you get it. Like you understand. I feel accepted as I am, dirt and all.

Menow.  I do get it....and because of the next quote from you, I think:

I grew up catholic and pretty much hating myself, born sinner, shameful to be human, and all that. I think it is against the christian law to be "selfish" or what they should really say, it is against the law to be POWERFUL because then we might not NEED the church.

Ditto in it's entirety!!!  I have never heard it so perfectly put.  You took the concepts out of my mind and put them in exactly the right words!
Exactly!!!!



And Jophil: just so you know:

Firstly, I think that it is likely that children, who grow up in a family where there is a 'free and easy flow' of love and acceptance , probably choose adult partners who deliver much the same. These people are the lucky ones.

I was one of the "lucky ones" because I did grow up surrounded by this kind of family......but I chose (before, not now) horrible partners because of my parents' loving but misguided intention of having us experience the Catholicism that Menow speaks about. Well, that and simply who I am, or my unique take on it all (I have many siblings without these same manifestations).
I don't attach blame, though,  it's all part of my path.

Menow: there is a great book by Debbie Ford, called "The Secret of the Shadow" where she encourages us to accept and even celebrate the "lumps in our batter" as she calls it, that make up the wonderful "cake" we are!!!  Very cool concept.
Also, Pema Chodron, in her writings, because she is a Buddhist, talks frequently about compassion for oneself.....and with that the ability to accept responsibility for ourselves and our experiences as well.

I think you will be fine.  Just a question, if you don't mind (I feel we may be very similar):
were you especially sensitive as a child?

[mum]

I found out later that you hand on to others what you don't hand back to the people who abuse you. Abusiveness is a disease. You can catch it if you get exposed to it.

Unlucky Ducky: could you explain this to me?  I guess I need it spelled out: I will tell you why:
(sorry Menow if I am hijacking....I'll take it elsewhere if you think I should)
I am dealing (always) with a very nasty ex husband.  He has asked me to respond in email (which can and very likely be used in our court case) to a request for "help" in "punishing" our son (long story), and in it he also makes reference to my parenting as weak.
  Well, I don't believe in "punishing" an almost adult child, let alone for a bad grade on a report card, as natural consequences are the best teachers, etc etc....(which he is already feeling, but I don't feel I owe my ex this explanation.....)
I am trying to decide whether or not to totally blast him in a letter that tells him I think his parenting is alienating his son and I disagree with his approach entirely (there is a long story here....appalling) or not.
The thing is this:
Do I send it because like a kid who is sick of the bully on the playground who finally gets enough and says STOP! I won't let you pick on me any more!!!! (but then it lets him feel glad he has "engaged me", which thrills him no end so he can continue the exchange)....OR do I continue to turn the other cheek and then have him be able to say in court: see? she won't even respond and I'm the good parent and I'm trying to work with her here......

[U. Duck]

Mum: be careful. It looks to me like your nasty ex is trying to trap you into saying something in writing that is inappropriate in some way so that he can use it against you.

Lawyers are very expensive but I think any response to his request should maybe be drafted by yours and not by you alone.

"Abusiveness is a disease." That comes from Patricia Evans who writes about verbally abusive relationships. "What you don't hand back, you hand on." comes from Dr. Wayne Dyer.

Put their ideas together. If you are abused and you don't understand how abuse works then you don't know what is right or wrong about how you are treated. You learn to treat others the way you are treated.

I think this can happen at any age. Like brainwashing. It's like a disease in your thoughts and feelings, that you get because of contact with someone else who has it. And they are trying to give it to you on purpose.

But then if you can catch it, it can be cured and you can get shots. Awareness is the cure and the shots too. For me, the books by Patricia Evans were a good place to get awareness.

[mum]

U duck: thanks for the advice, I did (as I always do) send the letter to my attorney for review. I actually even wrote a less inflammatory one that stuck to MY feelings and opinions, rather than his (although, in that I told him what I thought of what he had done).
You are right, they are expensive (just got another huge bill....hard to believe the retainer is gone AGAIN and already).
Money is fluid....it comes in ..... it goes out....it comes in again... so I can find a way with the expense (I always do).

I think I understand what you wrote to mean that if we are aware that we are responding because of abuse, that we can learn from our pain and pass on the learning....the healing.... from our transformation?  That makes perfect sense to me (and what I am counting on!!!)

[Anonymous]

I am dealing (always) with a very nasty ex husband.  He has asked me to respond in email (which can and very likely be used in our court case) to a request for "help" in "punishing" our son (long story), and in it he also makes reference to my parenting as weak.

This is a hook with bait dangling from it. I would have your attorney reply to his attorney (not to him), nothing from you. And ask that he not directly contact you.

bunny

[Menow]

Gosh,
There is so much good stuff here, I dont know where to begin or how to respond! I am overwhelmed.... Hmmmm.

Jophil,
Wow, you put it so succinctly. I get caught up in that probably in every relationship I have. Thanks for laying it out so clearly, it will help me and others I am sure, to stop myself whenever I am setting up this game. NOBODY OWES ME ANYTHING, I think is a good standard to live by. I get to choose whether to love or care if I want and to expect nothing in return. That is tough, but so crucial, I see. Of course, all the manipulating stems from.. no one is going to love me for me, no one is going to love me if I dont manipulate them to. Yeah, it's time to find out. Scary, but time.

And by the way, my friend Mike called from where out of state, things are moving along with his divorce.. and it seemed like I was talking to a different person! The old him is back   So I think it was the stress of the divorce. That was nice to get my friend back. Not to base my life on him or anyone, but it was nice to see my instincts were right and nice to have my dear friend back.

Unlucky Ducky,
Yes, I am sure there are churches that promote self empowerment etc. and AA is an awesome program, I didnt realize it was christian based. I just have a yucky history, like Mum! And even though you were shaking after speaking up, I still hope it felt empowering to do that?!?! It has when I have. I confronted my dad about the sexual abuse and I was shaking too, dizzy, etc. But oh my God, my life changed forever.

Mum,
Wow! We are so similar. Yeah, that church thing! Yuck! I am so glad I got it EXACTLY! Thanks!!! IT felt good to "speak" that out loud here, man. It is such a male chauvinistic society, most christianity that I have experienced.  Us little women need to lean on our strong man. What would us helpless folk do without them?!?! If you are hearing a little rage there, you are right!  

ANd I have heard of that book, THe Secret of the Shadow! I will have to add that to my long list of to do's! And yes, I was a sensitive child. Of course!!! You too!!! The story or my life... "you are just too sensitive." Please! The world should be more sensitive! I am on a roll now.

Okay, I better stop while I am ahead... I am having a really good day. All to myself, getting alot done in my apt. and having some quality time with myself  

Menow

[Stormchild]

I'm barging in here but hopefully won't offend. I've noticed some references to Patricia Evans' books about abuse on the board in the last few weeks and thought folks might like to have some more info - there is a good review available online that has a lot of substance to it.

http://www.cyberparent.com/abuse/book-verbally-abusive-relationship-long.htm

I put this URL up on the other board too. It actually talks about the specific  kinds of psychological / verbal abuse that are discussed in the book.

Could be worth a look. Anyway, 'scuse me for interrupting.

[Menow]

Stormchild,
I actually have this book and read parts of it. I did go to the URL you have posted... it was good to read through and has some good tips... I will keep my eyes and ears open, since I know I am vulnerable to accept verbal abuse, thanks for posting this.

Menow