A string of unfulfilling relationships...

[Stormchild]

Hi Chicken --

Re what a therapist might be good for:

What about helping you learn a different set of behaviors, so that you can get off this dismal treadmill? If you could have come up with them on your own, don't you think that would have happened by now?

[No criticism intended. I have the exaaaaaact same problem, in 24K heavy gold electroplate. This is the main reason people go to AA and Al-Anon and ACOA and CoDA groups, too, at least in my experience.]

A cognitive t might be able to offer you some alternative responses to try.

[Chicken]

You said you've had counselling and talked and talked for hours and hours. Was that with a qualified therapist & over an extended period of time? Or was it in group workshop stuff? I'm curious as to what kind of counselling it was, and how qualified it was?

Hi John2,
I have been to two different counsellers (because I moved from one city to another)  they were completely/fully qualified.  It was just one on one basis.  Both counsellers were women.  I didn't stay with either of them longer than a month.  I felt like I didn't need it, read my reply above as for reasons why...

I'm kind of half thinking of giving my counseller another shot...  see what will come of it...

[Chicken]

Hi Chicken --

Re what a therapist might be good for:

What about helping you learn a different set of behaviors, so that you can get off this dismal treadmill? If you could have come up with them on your own, don't you think that would have happened by now?

[No criticism intended. I have the exaaaaaact same problem, in 24K heavy gold electroplate. This is the main reason people go to AA and Al-Anon and ACOA and CoDA groups, too, at least in my experience.]

A cognitive t might be able to offer you some alternative responses to try.

Hi Stormchild, thanks for your response.  I am considering going back to counselling-  sometimes I think I don't have a problem...  Sometimes I kind of want to remain in the throes of my addiction...  It's only recently that I have realised that I do have a serious problem, I am beginning to realise that it's time to buck up and start fighting this.

[write]

I've been for the last two years on and off to an excellent psychologist, and I think the way she helped is to help me reconstruct my self-image/ negative self-talk/ ways I relate to people.

Even though I knew my childhood was rough and my marriages v. difficult, I don't think I could have rebuilt my life as well without her support.

It is wonderful having her in the background too so when I'm struggling with something I can call or see her and she helps me get it into perspective.

I thinka  lot of counsellors are good at breaking down people's beliefs and experiences and emotions- but the best ones can help you make sense of and put your life back together after the recognition and grieving.

Recently I came to the conclusion- I'm not ready for a big relationship right now.

Before I might have rationalised that as no one loves me/ I'll never find anyone...you probably know the kind of thing.

Now I just feel- the time's not right for me and when it is I'll get back out there and look for someone.

Maybe your image of a crushed flower is a similar thing? You need to feel more complete and strong and taking care of yourself so that if you meet an abuser you're not vulnerable?

I also think we grow up thinking life is like the movies and it's terrible to be alone. But I know now- unless I'm fine on my own first, it's not going to work in a relationship.

I'm working on building me a great life as a single person for the forseeable future.

[mum]

Hi, Chicken, and welcome.  Chickens are cool, and since I don't eat them, I don't have a problem with your name, even if you chose it to represent fear.....something I sure have plenty of!!!  Glad always to be friends with fear!!! (better than having it for an enemy, that's for sure)

I have been following your thread, and the great folks here, as usual, have pretty much summed things up....but I might be able to send another thought your way about therapists....by way of my experience.

My current, traditional therapist was available to me in a very dark time of my life.  She held my hand, helped my process, validated my pain.  Because it was two years of full on crisis (legal battle) she pretty much was on weekly damage duty.  I love her dearly.  However, probably because of the state I was in, she was pretty much just putting on band aids as fast as she could....and we only nominally touched on some root issues for me.  Mostly we focused on how to function in a horrible situation.
When I hit rock bottom emotionally, I was presented with another counselor, more of a teacher/mentor, and it was she who handed me a key that I am not sure could have come in any other form. My children sent me to this point, I am sure, as I was miserable, and making them so as well.
All that I had read about, thought, heard, believed, all came crashing down and opened up around me...suddenly things made sense. My part in all of it, the possibility of changing, of choosing to do so, all of it was now available.

I took a haitus from my traditional counselor while I worked on the things I was discovering....and just recently, started back up with her.  She is without ego regarding her clients, so she was only happy to see me again, not threatened at all.
And although I am still in "crisis" legally, I am not emotionally, and doubt I ever will be there again (except briefly....). Now my therapist and I are delving deep, and she has helped me heal so many things from my past that I don't know how it would have happened otherwise.
I also still work with the other person from time to time, as her expertise is more about how energy works in this life, so it is wonderful for me to check in with her and have spiritual discussions, etc..

My point is this: open up.  Have faith.  I had no other option but to say I was powerless.....and that I needed some more adn different help than I was getting, even though I didn't know what it was.  I couldn't do this alone...couldn't figure it out.  I was just plain overwhemed.
 So I asked God/the universe/whateve higher vibration or power there is for help (call it whatever works for you).  How these two women came to me, or I came to them, is purely a miracle.  But I was ready.  It didn't come to me until I knew I needed it.
When you are ready, things will practically land on your doorstep.  I see this group here that way, a real miracle discovery for me.

I am sure things will work out for you.  You have taken a major step toward yourself already.

[bunny]

What will therapy do for me?  I'm completely aware of what I'm doing and the damage and self-destruction that I endure...  I don't think counselling is going to teach me anything I don't know already!

My therapist has told me nothing that I didn't know already. The way therapy really works is the RELATIONSHIP between the patient and the therapist. This relationship can only be established over time, and the therapist has to establish a bond of trust. After that, the patient will start enacting things in the therapy session, or in dreams, or after leaving the session. The patient will have feelings for the therapist (dependency, shame, idealization, anger, resentment, etc.) and these feelings will be processed between them. It's a relationship unlike the one with a lover because you can TALK ABOUT FEELINGS without the other person retaliating, withdrawing, punishing you for it, using it against you, etc. Your patterns will be manifested in the sessions and you can work on them safely, unlike with a lover to whom you're sexually vulnerable and especially when you have doubts about his sensitivity, his commitment, etc.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Welcome Chicken:

So glad you've posted and yes, shown such courage in reflecting on all of this.  There has been much wonderful support back to you here already eh!

I was wondering, did you spend time between relationships, to go over what happened, and heal from the loss, or did you find you were getting involved with another person fairly soon after each breakup?  (If you feel comfy enough to answer, that is).

Plucky is a good name, but it is taken already (Glad to see that Plucky!!  Good for you!!)

Hummmmmmmm.  Chicken is a foul bird.  How about Heron?  Steps along the edge of the water, looking carefully, taking her time to examine what's underneath, quite a lovely, inspiring bird!   Well......if Chicken stays your choice, may I call you Chicky?  Soft, sweet, little one trying to grow?

 
GFN

[Better now]

Your story sounds so much like mine Chicken. And talking my head off for hours and hours led nowhere positive. A senior psychologist said one day to my therapist and me "The last thing that she needs is talk therapy" and my therapist agreed   .  I was so offended and hurt. I'd had so much physical abuse and I had so many stories of sordid and emotional and psycholological abuse to recount. They went on for hundreds, maybe thousands of hours. I could have kept 20 therapists busy for 2 years just recording MY CONFUSIONS AND THE ABUSE.

She ended up being right   .

Talk therapy for us isn't always the right type of therapy FOR SOME OF US.

Better now

[Resolution]

The search for the perfect love.......the one and only! So we have high expectations......that invariably fail to be fulfilled, so the quest goes on. The fantasy continues.....and as is often the case, one either finds ourselves with partners who live in fantasy land, or more like, wolves in sheeps clothing.

When we seek the ideal, it is soooo easy to have the wool pulled over our eyes by the wolves. They know exactly what you want to hear and thus play it back to you. Soon you find yourself in an realistic relationship desperately trying to keep it together. Only when the honeymoon period it over, reality really sucks! Either you're being used one way or other....because you actively allow yourself to be, or you're with some person who hasn't got the slightest chance of fulfilling any of your criteria and you're pissed off!

From what you wrote, I'd say the biological clock is ticking away biggggg time and your desperation is more obvious.....not a good situation to find ones self in....not good at all. So in your opinion, probably all the good guys are spoken for.....and most of the rest are crap heads! So you've probably had a number of affairs....with the guys promising to leave the wife.....whilst having fun with you. When the fun's over, as you become serious, back to wifey he goes!

I have absolutely no advice for you.....save this. If you're using sex to find a life partner.....stop! If you find yourself being talked into bed on meating a guy for the first or second time, walk away. Re define your goals and remove 'screw me' from your forehead    Sounds harsh, but the more desperate a girl gets, the more obvious and easy to take advantage of her it becomes!

Take up rambling and join a group......doing something completely different to what you normally do......and keep your knees   together  

[Portia]

Hi Chicken, some observations and questions for you:

I am continuously attracted to unavailable, abusive, manipulative men who are incapable of offering the relationship I crave.

You sound pretty convinced that you’re attracted to inappropriate men, i.e. that these men are abusive etc…..but then you said:

I can't figure out why they are so unfulfilling... Is it my fault? Am I projecting past hurts onto my current relationships? or am I really choosing unsuitable men?

I want to ask, are the men abusive or not? This wouldn’t only be your view, it would be the view of other people – your family, friends, work colleagues. Do they think your romantic relationships have been with abusive men? The generally accepted idea is that in a loving relationship people don’t physically, verbally or psychologically abuse each other (at least not regularly).

So maybe you want to talk about what the men you’ve been with have been like? Many here may have a view as to whether they’ve been abusive or not. That might answer your question as to whether it is the men, or you!

Also this is interesting:

I had a glass of wine with the new man in my life, and all of a sudden I became overwhelmed by this image that came into my head, I felt like I was a delicate flower in the palm of his hand waiting to be crushed.

I guess something he said or did bought this image into your mind? Can you remember what happened?

[Moira]

Hi Chicken! I think many of us can totally relate to your fears and frustrations. Did you grow up with a N in your family or any other kind of abuse? My mother was a supreme N and terrorized us all. I was the only one who challenged her- a losing prospect!- and the rest of the family only saw me as a shitdisturber. Anyway, I too have had as lifelong struggle to find a decent emotionally available " normal" guy! I'm a nurse in psychiatry with 20 yreas experience. I also have a mental illness so I've seen shrinks my whole life. It's an ongoing uphill battle to understand why we make the choices we do, how to recognize early red flags- because they're always there, we just tend to deny and rationalize them. For years I was perplexed why " these guys who seemed so loving and grounded in the beginning then turned into abusers. Everyone said to me" Oh, you're so independent, so successful, educated, bright..." They thought I was just " unlucky in love". The light went on one day when I realized, and then had to work through why, I was th eone who sought them out, chose them. I rejected lots of " nice" guys- too boring!!! It's NOT a matter of fault- although getting stuck in self blame and guilt is completely normal for us( the global " us"). You do what you know and what you were conditioned to know. Chaos and abuse are familiar if you grew up with it and were voiceless and powerless as a child. Not to mention the fact that the first people we are to trust is our family. How can you ever trust- esp. yourself- if you learned early on you couldn't trust the only people who supposedly loved you and were supposed to protect and nurture you? For the longest time I was addicted to " bad boys"- they were exciting, unpredictable. regular guys were boring. I'm still learning to let go of this self destructive pattern. It's a hard row to hoe learning why we pick these guys and how to spot them and aviod them. Being partners of N's we are codependent, vulnerable and we're starving to find love- in any guise. And how Ns present themselves as the ideal partner and " appear" to " love us unconditionally and not like any other man has or could" is an irresistable lure. I always ignored every red flag and as I said, denial and rationalization are old friends. I think the terror of abandonment and having to be on our own- either permanently or for periods of time- is overwhelming and we become love junkies. I had 2 good relationships with decent guys before I met my n. Now I feel all my painful hard work in therapy was for naught. Yet when I look back on all my relationships there has been a pattern of picking men who have less and less abusive traits. I know this may still sound a wee bit sick- I should say, unhealthy- it's progress. Like any addiction it's a day by day battle and one step forward often 2 steps back. Knowing yourself, being brutally honest and willing to look in the proverbial mirror for me has been the only way to start getting a handle on it. I could never have done any of this without my psychiatrist who is fabulous. I have found it very beneficial to find a shrink who specializes not only in my condtion but does a lot of work with personality disordered people and their significant others. I recently made up a list of completely unacceptable and abusive behaviours I will NOT tolerate and have it taped several places in my house. I also now use my family- the supportive non N ones- and my good friends as sounding boards because a huge number of them over the years have hated my choices. At that time, surprise, surprise!- it used to just push me more towards the abusers and I discounted all their negative feedback. No more. Every time they have been right on and if more than 1 or 2 of them have concerns, I'm outta there. The work in progress for me is that, unlike a healthy, confident, non damaged woman, it's now a matter of me ending it right away the FIRST time I am on the receiving end of abuse. At least with my ex, I only spent 6 months enduring the escalating bullshit instead of my old pattern of hanging in there and wasting years hoping for change that is impossible with N's. Another big wake up call this time has been the incredible toll the last few months have taken physically and mentally. I will not allow anyone- MYSELF FIRST- to compromise my health including my spirit and soul. I'm 47 years old and don't have th time to continue this pattern. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I firmly believe it's possible to find a decent man totally capable of accepting, respecting and really loving me. It's a long painful journey but it is worth it and you can learn who you are and to love yourself first then be capable of trust and love with someone who is whole. Be good to yourself.

[Sallying Forth]

Hello Chicken,
I found a great book When Hope Can Kill. The bottomline in the book is about finding your true self. Over 75% of the book is about finding your true self through journaling. Most everything you've talked about here is in that book. The author's premise is that unless we know our true selves we will allow others to use, abuse and hurt us.


I have yet to read another good book someone recommended Why Men Love Bitches. It is basically the same premise as the first book I mentioned. Know your true self.

[Sallying Forth]

Talk therapy for us isn't always the right type of therapy FOR SOME OF US.

Better now

Same here. My therapist and I work a completely different way than most therapeutic relationships. His premise is that each person knows what they need already AND how to do their therapy to heal. He is more of a mentor like someone else said here about their therapist. Although at times he has called me his mentor because I'm doing therapy a different way. Sometimes he has to step back and trust. I would say my therapy is traditional and non-traditional at the same time. It works. Much of the time I bounce my inner discoveries off my therapist and he gives me more insight into them. He also is like a guide and shows me where I need to go when the trail seems to end.

I've been with my therapist for a long time even though there were times I wanted to quit because I didn't like what I saw on the horizon.

I'm in the grieving stages of my therapy and have been since November when I began my third book. My books, in essence, are my therapy. I talk, emote and work through everything by writing my story. Sometimes I literally cry as I write.

I've been writing for over 25 years through various avenues and found fiction is what does it for me. Actually the avenue is fiction but the story is the truth. Sounds strange but my childhood always seemed like a piece of fiction so I guess it really fits. 

[Chicken]

Hello All,

Well here I am, two months later at the end of this relationship.  It has been a roller coaster of a ride which resulted in me being physically and sexually assaulted.  This only happened last night so I am still reeling.  I have phoned my counsellor and she is phoning me back to make an appointment to see her.  The only reason I am going to go to counselling is that I am not sure I can keep away from this man on my own because I still love him (I am addicted to him rather) and I know I will crave him when the dust settles.

I am so confused about the whole situation and I don't know how to deal with his constant phone calls, texts and emails.  I told him to stop calling me but he doesn't listen.  I have repeatedly tried to walk away from this abusive relationship but he always manages to win me back in the end, due to his constant phone calls,texts etc, so he thinks I will succumb eventually this time too. 

Part of me is terrified of the time those phone calls will stop...  (?)

I don't know what has become of me and why I always choose these abusive men as partners.  Moira, you are right, I hand pick these men, they are carbon copies of each other.  I feel like I need them and I need the intensity.  This guy was really full on and it was an intense relationship.  I feel like I need that in someone, I could never deal with subtleties.  I need someone to really prove their love to me and to run through hoops before I will take them seriously, I am shocking myself by what I am saying here, oh boy!  I am so messed up...  so confused...

I hope I have the strength to climb this mountain that lies before me...

P.S Thank you all for your kind words.  Moira, you make a lot of sense. 
Resolution: I am hurt by your words as they seem to imply that I sleep around, which I do not.  I take a while to get to know someone before I sleep with them so don't bother putting your issues on me.

[Chicken]

Just to let you all know, I changed my user name from chicken to Selkie.  I thought my original post was going to be a one-off but now that I decided to stick around, I wanted to choose a name other than one I just picked off the top of my head...

hope no confusion was caused!