On loving and leaving MEN! (Part II)

[Anonymous]

Hi Guys - Just a quick follow up to my last post all that time ago!!  A year ago, I guess...

If you have a narcissistic parent (the true NPD), what's the safest, healthiest choice for a spouse so you can relive your childhood and resolve THOSE issues (cos we don't have choices, really, do we!?!) without getting clobbered in quite the same way in the here and now???

Why, pick someone on the autistic spectrum, of course

       

You'd be amazed at how high-functioning aspergers can replicate much of the narcissistic 'mode' - it may look like a duck, it may quack like a duck but, actually, it's not even a bird!!!

Add repressed anger in passive-aggressive mode.

And a son who carries his father's genes (as his father did before him).

Wow - wot a melting pot to drive a woman who functions in a completely opposite way completely bonkers!  (and vice versa!)

I'm off the prozac.  It really IS the world outside that's out-of-kilter and not me. JPN? Not any more!!!  A new pain to deal with is that real intimacy is probably off the menu forever.  I don't truly exist for him, just as I didn't for my mother but it's for totally different reasons.  I had no idea, and just treated it as 'normal' (cos it was, for me, and anyway I do exist MORE as a separate person for him than I did for my mother - it's all relative and I'm grateful for this difference!)

I think it was the intimacy I experienced here on the board, thwarted and counterbalanced by the conflict set up by those who felt unnerved by it, that really pushed me to begin to recognise something of what was puzzling and painful and out of kilter.

There are some great books on coping with relationships with 'aspies'.  Here in the UK, Relate (national marriage guidance organisation) has specialist counsellors - isn't that the most amazing thing!  A pile of books arrived from Amazon today.

Bunny, you'll be glad to know that H has gone into therapy.  Yeah! High five!!  With both of us in therapy we should have a roller coaster year ahead but I'm just glad he's got someone to look after him while I do what I must. And then marital therapy beckons to help us work through this communication minefield of aspergers syndrome.

It's hard for H to acclimatise to this new thought of Aspergers.  For me it's just a 'difference' but he has other labels for it.  He hasn't yet quite cottoned on to just how intelligent aspies can be.

We did a trial test today - I did it too as some of the descriptors seem rather close to home - the outcome was amazing.  A shock, really.  Such a difference in the outcomes.  There's loss to deal with now.  But there's hope, too - we'll be getting our bright little chap the support he needs a lot earlier than his dad got his.  

I'm afraid that the constant challenges I've put my H through over the past year have caused him a lot of pain.  But then I remind myself that his actions and communication constantly (inadvertently) cause me a lot of pain, too.  And NOT accepting it has led us to this piont of greater knowledge.  

The thing that helped most was the therapy and good friends - I began to value myself and started to say 'hang on a minute, my best friends wouldn't treat me that way...'  There's MUCH more to transference (in the right hands) than I realised!!!  

Getting a different perspective on it all will, I hope, lessen some of the pain and crazy-making.

Well, that's it, I think.  Hi, to my old friends and Hi to new.
R

(Oh, and for those who remember, yes, I finally worked through all the trash that 'You're too needy' therapist put me through!  Psychiatrists who value their power and pride more than our wellbeing are too narcissistic to care and cover up the evidence too well) haha - I couldn't leave without a    

[rosencrantz]

Sorry folks - I got logged out - that was me, Rosencrantz!

[Portia]

Rosencrantz      
I nearly fell off my chair when I saw your name here! You sound the same but different?

I’m glad your H is having therapy and will join in the high five with Bunny! Excellent news. Has he been diagnosed with Aspergers? I watched the Channel 4 prog on autism a couple of weeks ago and was struck by the young lad with Aspergers, how he seemed a lot of the time to be very intelligent and balanced – but then when he expressed what he was thinking and feeling….I saw in that prog, similarities I thought to NPD. The young girl who couldn’t understand why if she wanted to be some boy’s girlfriend, the fact that he didn’t want it didn’t compute. She couldn’t understand why she couldn’t just have what she wanted: why should his feelings come into it? And so on. Interesting stuff. Has your son been diagnosed? I’m sorry but thankful too that if so, you know now and as you say, can get support.

Hope you’re remembering to go easy on yourself too? Those books from Amazon – hope you become an expert s-l-o-w-l-y R, I can imagine you becoming engrossed in a new challenge. Which is good - and balance is good too. Time for yourself as well for others!

I’m so happy that therapy is working for you - and good friends too? We all need them, the ones who can listen to the tough stuff and point a different way sometimes. Are you (still) having NHS therapy? If so, big congratulations that it’s working (it often doesn’t it seems from what folks here have said, some sad stories of recent).

Good to see you again R

[dogbit]

Rosencrantz!  To make a looooong story shrt, two of my kids are on the autistic spectrum and in the long journey to find out what was wrong, (neither of them were able to attend public schools), I took a good look at my husband. I even talked to their shrink about it.  I really think he is high-functioning autistic and because he is very smart and very good-looking, he compensated.  He was fairly successful in the business world but totally clueless in the family.  We are now in the midst of a quite difficult divorce because he only sees the money.  He has cut off all communication with his kids and with me, of course.  The kids don't deserve it but I can understand his feelings toward me   .  He can't understand this situation unless he can subordinate the whole dynamic down to a spread sheet.  And since the spread sheet supports his position that I am ruining him financially (not true), he has given up trying to have a "normal" relationship with his kids.  I was torn between trying to save him or save myself.  I decided to leave.  (married 25 years).   Maybe he does have a neurological "difference".  But it has to stop somewhere!  I just recently purchased a book entitled:  Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults.  It talks about what I had always suspected.  There's nurture and nature.  His parents were not very invested in their children.  They were quite concerned about appearances.  I don't think it helped him.  It probably left him trying to figure out how he would survive in the world and the posturing he would have to take just to get people to leave him alone and not bring up the awkward questions of why he behaved as he did.  

I could say he is a narcissist and at first blush, he certainly appears to be one.  He has terrible rages.  He can't touch:  He's never held my hand or put his arm around my shoulder.  But I still feel he had good intentions without the skills to implement them.  I hate to leave him but now it's my time.  I've spent most of my energy on my kids one of whom is very "aspergery".  She's a very kind, hardworking kid who knows now that her version of relationships may be skewed toward her version of how life should be lived and maybe she should reconsider.  So, I guess, she is now asking the right questions instead of thinking that she is the center of the universe and the rest of us are all nuts!  That's the most I could give her.  The other told me that she thought she probably would have been just like Dad but she had good parenting.  Where do we go with this.  I'm not trying to be an apologist for people with real disorders.  I just don't think labelling someone as a narcissist covers all the bases.  Labelling someone provides a quick and easy answer.  They are the bad guys.  Maybe, actually I think always, we should address the issue of why we became attached to these people.  The bad news is that we are needy in our own way and saving someone validates our worth in life.  The good news is maybe we have an understanding of the disorder and we are accepting of people who exhibit narcissistic profiles without thinking about the long-term conseqencences.  No child is born to live the life of self-absorbed, raging, hurtful person.  I think we need to see where all the puzzle pieces come into play.  OK, so He/She presents as narcissistic.  Why?

[Anonymous]

Rosencrantz,

Thanks for the update. It's wonderful that you now know what's going on and things will be more manageable and not confusing now. Congratulations on your hard work!

bunny

[write]

though the last aspergers kid I worked with ran up and threw his arms around me, and was 100 % grateful for my presence and the bug-hunting kit I brought him.

Everyone can be reached. Eventually. It's just- at what price, and if it's worth it....

[dogbit]

Everyone can be reached. Eventually. It's just- at what price, and if it's worth it

Yup.  It's that old nurture or nature thing.  But supposing the nurture didn't exist, and the monster emerges, then we have to decide when to bow out.  My stbxh didn't have the nurturing but, I have to say, he did have the intelligence to plot his course in life.  His addiction to feeling entitled did not serve him well.  Jeepers, this reminds me of all the insanity defense pleas I see on Law & Order!.  Asperger's Syndrome is very real...how we deal with it as parents is the real crucible of how well the prognosis is when they become adults.  But, at this time, I still know too little about both issues.  I just wanted to say that HFA (high functioning autism) can be construed as being narcissistic.  One of my kids can be interpreted to be quite self absorbed and not terribly empathetic but she would never treat me as a punching bag as her father did toward me.  So....for the future, I'd like to think that nurture is a deterrant to becoming a borderline personality disorder.  And again, I am not an apologist for borderlines.  I'm only trying to consider all the information.

[rosencrantz]

Hi Portia, Hi bunny, Hi write

Yes, I'm sure I sound different.  I phoned my mother last night - no prozac, therapist on holiday (private, long-term, Kleinian, not NHS) and..yeehah! I was OK!  I know I'm different.  Seems right I should sound different too!  Centred, self-contained.  Feels good!

I even wrote a letter last night to queer the pitch of a physiotherapist who was about to mess up our son's diagnosis (she's definitely got something wrong going on!) - haha - I allow myself to be EFFECTIVE now instead of queering my own pitch in order to save the 'other'!!!  (Sorry, I'm no longer up for sacrifice. )

My mother knocked me off centre a couple of times last night but I felt like one of those weighted toys that bounce right back into place.  She's still 'going on' about me leaving home 30 years ago and how that proves what a dreadful daughter I am and how others turned me against her.  I can hear more clearly the negtive self-talk and her very convoluted logic.    

I worked out afterwards what my challenge needs to be : Mother dear, the day you can VALUE my independence and CHEER my courage in leaving home and RESPECT the fact I have separated  from you, we'll never find a loving mother/daughter relationship so...the ball is in your court...

But she won't understand the words.  Sad, isn't it that the only person who has turned me against her is HER!  

Wicked woman - you'll remember that terrible Xmas when my father wanted to talk to my son on his birthday but my her threw a hissy fit instead.  She accused me last night of not loving my father and making him cry the last time we spoke.  I said - it was YOU!!!  I was crying because you were so horrible to me, after you handed the phone over, I could hear you still screaming in the background and I kept asking him 'why does she keep doing this'!    (That's new, too - previously I'd have just tried to make sure I didn't make HER feel bad rather than be honest)

She keeps 'going on' too about me not loving her.  I don't need to prove anything but I did point out that I was, in spite of everything, still here.  I may not phone often (she wants a daily call!) but I do still keep in touch and I continue to help her look after her finances.  I'm still here - there's security and comfort in that if she can hear it.

hahaha - my 'function' apparently is to phone and visit so she can show off at the Day Centre and compete with the others.  It was so funny when it finally came out.  But it's sad that she isolates herself purely out of misplaced pride about being alone, unloved and forgotten (that's her latest 'poor me' story).  Very 'N'.

Hi dogbit - Yes, it appears that lots of women reach that point of divorce before realising about aspergers and by then it's too late as too much damage has been done.  They drive you crazy, cause amazing pain without having any idea and then go and add fuel to the fire by misinterpreting your own attempts to communicate and 'help'.  

My favourite is the potato story.  Last year I grew potatoes.  I was amazed and proud that these things grew.  I used them in my 'signature' hot pot but HE just never would use them in his sunday roast (except once when I nagged!).

One day I mentioned this to him.  Why, I asked?  He was clearly bewildered - he had always bought the potatoes from the village shop so it was out of loyalty to them.  Oh let's have a CG cackle hahahahahahaha  I was SO hurt.  What about loyalty to ME!  I sobbed.  He put his arm round me but clearly didn't connect.   I suddenly realised that friend X would have cooked up a special meal with them and friend Y would probably have set up a stall in the street to sell 'em.  I was intrigued that I realised different people would have shown different ways of appreciated and valuing my 'gift'.  No longer was it unnatural for me to wish to be appreciated and valued!  

It was talking about this with my therapist that led her to ask me some questions that led to the Great Awakening!!!  And then all the pieces just started to fall into place.

There's a lot that I value in my hubby - he's made BIG differences in my life simply by not being anything like my mother; 'cept then I discovered all the ways he IS like my mother!  aaagh!  It's uncomfortable for him, too, but he says he'd rather be an aspie than a shit so aspergers it is!!

Also, it's not at all obvious.  Many aspies are very 'nerdy' - anoraks! You wouldn't think that if you saw him.  But then he's hugely disciplined. What effort must have gone into being 'normal'.  It also explains why I frequently find myself giving up in bewilderment when I try to communicate with my son.  Very literal.  No context.  They've both found ways of coping but hurting inside.  

They're back from the school fair - gotta go!
Hugs
R

PS You can't change this kind of hard-wiring - only learn to tolerate and accommodate.  But there's some research in the UK on diet having made mega  differences!!!

[write]

You can't change this kind of hard-wiring - only learn to tolerate and accommodate. But there's some research in the UK on diet having made mega differences!!!


it's amazing what diet-related research is going on; I have bipolar 1 and am now taking huge doses of fish oil!
It's supposed to reduce the need for conventional meds over time.
 
Even if it doesn't- I'll have great skin I guess!

Glad you don't need the prozac any more- all these meds have side-effects.

I'm so glad you're finding all these great resources to help; good luck, you're going to be just fine.


(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Anonymous]

Hi rosencrantz,

Warning unsolicited suggestion ahead,,,

Your mother needs to shut up. I think it would be okay for you to block her from saying this crap to you. My suggestion, when she says, You're a terrible daughter" would be, "I'm the daughter you have, maybe not the one you wanted, but this is what you've got." (I once said this to my mother and it had a positive effect.) When she says some garbage about your father reply, "I don't want to get into that" and change the subject. Bottom line: don't explain, don't defend, it's all a waste of time. Just block it.

I don't know anything about aspergers but it sounds pretty disheartening to have someone not connect. {{{{ rosencrantz}}}}

bunny

[Portia]

Rosencrantz, it is good to see you again. And you do sound different.

I phoned my mother last night - no prozac, therapist on holiday (private, long-term, Kleinian, not NHS) and..yeehah! I was OK! I know I'm different. Seems right I should sound different too! Centred, self-contained. Feels good!

Just to say YES!  You’ve found a therapist who really does it for you? I’m very very glad. And no prozac too.   Can I say well done? Not patronising but very happy for you! And a tad envious too, about your therapist. Yes I have an envious side, I am human (too ).

Sorry, I'm no longer up for sacrifice.

Can I do one pleeeaaase? Hahahahahaha!      Excellent!

Sad, isn't it that the only person who has turned me against her is HER!

I guess she has to hate herself (not you, not the real you). I’m sorry she’s so unwell. It’s not your fault. Not your responsibility. I know you know that too.

But it's sad that she isolates herself purely out of misplaced pride

It’s sad to you. Your perception. Not necessarily her perception. Her pride keeps her going. Her hate keeps her going. Take it away and she disappears. All we can do is humour them. It’s very sad for us. For us! But we know it eh?

Please look after yourself like you are. (((Rosencrantz)))

[rosencrantz]

Hi again - I didn't mean to be away so long!  So much 'stuff' still going on.  This is a time I wish this board didn't need words!  Could just come along and connect with you just by 'being there'!

Thank you very, very much for your replies.

My mother is behaving herself!  (I am treading warily!)  One of her best shots was to scream at me I am "evil, EVIL" as I kept both feet firmly planted in reality during a telephone conversation.  She can keep those purple clouds with yellow spots (for those who remember! ) and I don't insist that she sees them my way but if they look grey with a silver lining, then that's what I see and I'll say it out loud.  (WOW!)    Yes, I did talk about paranoia when she told me I was always on everyone else's side, always criticising her and putting her in the wrong.  Yes, I did point out how she engineers failure for everyone who tries to help and how they can't help but give up in time.

It's difficult to know what she heard, but she 'heard' something!  She actually apologised for the 'evil' comment in another call (! Another WOW!) but made it clear she was apologising for saying it and that she still thought it was true. LOL  I begin to wonder whether she's an Aspie too...But that's too complicated for me to work out...

My lovely son is progressing so well.  He's just left primary school and is taking care to process information and work out what he needs to do.  I'm so proud of him.  Considering how much despair, helplessness and irritation I've experienced when it's proved impossible to connect with him in any way (and I think he's felt exactly the same!),  it's nothing short of a miracle to feel so much love and compassion for him now.

I think I'm about to embark on a journey through feelings of aloneness and loneliness that I'm not going to relish. I can only 'hope' that there is light at the end of this particular tunnel.  And at least now I know why I've found myself saying on occasion to my husband that I don't feel 'loved'. He is capable of demonstrating affection and it's nice to see that coming back. His therapy is already helping to heal the wounds of the past year or so.  I'm not sure that I ever want to have 'functional' sex ever again tho!  I can't say I wouldn't have married him if I'd have known beforehand - I was too screwed up by the so-called therapy I'd had and he's been my saviour in many ways.

It's just that investing yourself in 20 years of marriage, you'd think you'd have more 'relationship' to show for it.

Love the new board!  Very smart. (Couldn't resist trying some of the new stuff out!)

TTFN
Sue

[rosencrantz]

How could I forget to share the best bit!! (I guess I was struggling to find more to say than just 'hello' and forgot I really did have something to share!)

Projective identification - when someone else dumps their feelings in you so you feel and 'become' what they want you to feel; then they go off and feel fine! 

I became terrified of my mother because of her power to do that to me, leaving me with all that paranoia, fear, disgust, helplessness and taking away my confidence as tho it was hers.  Just call me 'dustbin' (trashcan?).  A real energy vampire!   

My healer 'closed up' various 'chakras' in an effort to help me keep stuff out over 18 months ago.

But it seems it's the therapy that's finally fixed all that!!

I'm just not open to it any more!!!!!

During that long 3 hour call, I had this image of waves rolling in reverse - coming from her towards me but, before reaching me, curling over away from me, rolling back in her own direction.  Wow!  I feel so CLEAN! 

We're going to visit in a couple of weeks time - see if we can sort out some of the helpless chaos she is living in.  I will be vigilant - and I'll just leave if I start to wobble.  And I will not be bringing her back with me!  That's a commitment to the Voicelessness Forum!
R

[rosencrantz]

Portia! 

You are a HERO member!

What an accolade!   

Fantastic!

R/S

[missm]

Projective identification - when someone else dumps their feelings in you so you feel and 'become' what they want you to feel; then they go off and feel fine! 

I became terrified of my mother because of her power to do that to me, leaving me with all that paranoia, fear, disgust, helplessness and taking away my confidence as tho it was hers.  Just call me 'dustbin' (trashcan?).  A real energy vampire!   

So true - and so prevalent.  The best part is realizing that they can only offload their shadow on you if you let them.  I wrote a prose poem once about exactly that.  Thanks for sharing your realizations, they're very valuable.