Nism vs Autism

[October]

Having put my teddy back into the pram (for now) ...  

I read in one thread (sorry, not sure where) about the similarities between Nism and autism, in particular Asbergers.  That made me wonder in particular about No 2 brother, who could very easily be hf Asbergers. <lightbulb moment>  That in turn made me wonder about Nmum, and she is less typically so, but there are shades.

And even me.  Heavily dissociated (still) and happy to remain so for now, that means disconnection from emotional connections.  In the process I have lost my sense of humour (or perhaps not all, but some - 'it' just isn't funny any more.) and also a level of meaning.  When I was asked on Monday 'what did you take away from last week' I replied 'some pieces of paper'.  Which is true.  Then when asked what else I took away, I said, 'nothing else.  Only the paper.  Then when I got home I threw it into the bin'.  Actually, maybe that is funny after all.    

Which I know is not the intended meaning behind that phrase, but when you are only connecting with the literal surface meaning, and deliberately not at the deep structure level, then that makes sense.  Deep structure meanings (and humour) lose their value when the connections with them are lost/broken.  This is not the same as Asbergers, where the person is not aware of the deep structure.  I am aware of it, but it has no meaning.

Anyway, I don't want to get too involved in talking about me, because that way monsters lie.  But could anyone else comment on how to them dissociation might lead to autistic type behaviours, albeit from a normal person.  Or how Nism and Asbergers might be related.  (And we can thereby take the blame off at least some parents of 'monster' children.)

[dogbit]

Hi October,

I think I posted in the earlier thread talking about the similarities between narcissism and asperger's.  My context is mainly my children and my husband.  Two of my kids were diagnosed with NVLD which is (and is still up for debate) a milder form of asperger's..  And also Tourette Syndrome.  One of them is a twin (fraternal) and her twin sister is just fine...It was apparent very early on that they were having difficulties.  Both saw everything as black or white and appeared to be very self-absorbed.  However, they were also very giving and kind if the situation was presented to them clearly.  For example, when they were around 8 or 9 years old, I lost my temper and was frothing at the mouth and one of them asked me if I was mad!  The point being I almost had to pop a cork before she realized.  In short, to know them is to love them but a few clues about how they see the world makes it possible to communicate.  My husband, whom I thought of as maybe having asperger's in an attempt to figure out what was going on, is quite serious about being in control of himself as well as his family, has rages that have involved police intervention, has no friends or family who will relate to him (his choice), and can never be criticized or told "no" to unless you want to incur his rage, ridicule or silent treatment.  He's quite arrogant about his intellectual abilities and the amount of money he has.  He claims he was ignored as a child and that is whyhe is  the way he is.  He has made to effort to change in the last 30 years.  But I met his family and I can sort of see his side.  They are all very much into appearances  of the wealthy sort without the IQ to support it    And to confound all, my daughter once told me that she thought she might have turned out to be like her father if she hadn't had good parenting.  So, for myself, I don't know.  The truly asperger kids I have known find it very difficult to form relationships and want to be more alone than most of us.  They don't want a lot of tension or dissension so they tend to remain cloistered.  The narcissists I have known need a relationship to fill in the missing pieces in their lives and to have someone  simultaneously take care of them and to take the blame when, for whatever reason, their self-image is faltering. I think a truly asperger person just fades away to protect himself when anger and tension exist.  The narcissist sees it as an opportunity to magnify himself as a wonderful person becaue he/she is very good at blame and confabulation of the truth.  What do you think?  Bittles

[Plucky]

Anyway, I don't want to get too involved in talking about me, because that way monsters lie.

October,
we are not afraid of monsters here.  Bring them on.
Plucky

[October]

Hi October,

I think I posted in the earlier thread talking about the similarities between narcissism and asperger's.  My context is mainly my children and my husband.  Bittles

Thanks, Bittles.  I knew someone had written about this.  I have a good friend whose son has Asbergers Syndrome, and I am full of admiration for her patience with him.  He is both very vulnerable and at the same time very difficult to love.

Anyway, there was a television programme a week or so back (it was on the teachers channel in the middle of the night, when I couldn't sleep) about a young boy, of about 4 who was diagnosed autistic, and his parents took him somewhere or other,    where there was a radical new approach to his situation.  They learned about this, and then went home and built him a playroom, and they played with him.  The idea as I understand it was to create a safe environment, and through play reach out to him in a way that was meaningful to him, in order to make connections with him

Within a few months he was developing pretty well as a normal child and learning to read and write; not exactly the same as his siblings, but able to tolerate situations which he couldn't cope with before.  He could, for example, show his parents how to cook scrambled eggs in the microwave, and that amazed them that he knew how to do that and could do it.  They had no idea of the child that was within, until they were taught how to connect with him emotionally.  And having made the emotional connection, they were able to bring him into this world, and out of his own.

There seems to be something about being connected with other people; with making contact on an emotional level.  Ns can't do it and neither can people with autistic limitations.  The programme was suggesting that autistic children might be reached, by having a safe, predictable, and limited environment to explore, with one other person at a time, and by being enabled to connect.

Which is pretty well what we need too, in some ways.

[October]

we are not afraid of monsters here.  Bring them on.
Plucky

Thanks, Plucky.  I'll try to remember that.  

[idiosavant]

on autism and relationship to n
i think some of the stuff of npa theory
..started by horney
but i am thinking more in the more recent stuff
of dr anthony benis
tho i think some of his stuff fails to contact the deeps spirit of peace..
as it could..
nevertheless some interesting insights...

HERE ARE SOME PASTES FROM A SITE FIRST THO A URL
..WHICH U CAN USE THIS GOOGLE LINK
I HOPE TO GO TO..WHICH SHOULD HIGHLIGHT AUTISTIC
AND SOME OTHER WORDS
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:mEKzgRJgTWUJ:health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/2579+npa+theory+autism+narcissism+autistic&hl=en

NOW AS TO AS TO SOMETHING FROM THE SITE ON AUTISM

N-P Narcissistic schizoid-schizotypal [5]
perfectionist schizoid [8]
borderline borderline autistic child [7]
idiot savant [7]

N=P Narcissistic- catatonic, hebephrenic
perfectionistic or acute-onset
paranoid schizophrenic schizophrenia
[2,4]
autistic child [7]
THE N-P IS HIS TYPE OF NARCISSTIC GENE ACTIVATION
THAT IS I THINK REPRESSED AND ONLY JUVENILE ONSET

AND THE N=P
I THINK IS ABOUT BEING RESIGNED AND MATURITY
OR JUVENILE ONSET
THE N- IS I THINK
 
Perfectionism (P): The trait of perfectionism is not a basic drive
of ambition and is not associated with a rage reaction. Rather it
is a mediator of the unbridled drives of aggression and/or
narcissism. The stereotypic acts associated with the trait of
perfectionism are obsessiveness, compulsiveness, repetition, and the
maintenance of neatness, order and symmetry. A clue to the nature
of the trait lies in the compulsive, repetitive mannerisms of
autistic children and some adult schizophrenic individuals [12-14].
The behavioural pattern is often ritualistic and the speech
characterised by echolalia. It will be posited later that certain
autistic and schizophrenic individuals are those in whom the two
components of ambition, i.e. aggression and narcissism, have been
suppressed by genetic or environmental factors, either congenitally,
in childhood, or after maturity, thus revealing in the individual a
primitive state of perfectionism.

Narcissism (N): The trait of narcissism is noted to be less labile
than that of aggression (where individuals may be constantly
altering their character states on a scale of dominance and
submission). The stereotypic acts associated with the trait include
self-flaunting body posturing, expansive arm gestures, bowing,
instinctive self-adornment, and a natural attraction to the
limelight of personal recognition. Individuals having only this
trait (of the three) are competitive but non-aggressive in their
strivings for recognition. The trait corresponds to a striving for
glory in one's environment, hence it is the second main component of
human ambition. In a pejorative connotation, the unbridled trait of
narcissism may reveal itself in the context of conceit,
exhibitionism, vanity or messianism. An associated facial
expression includes the radiant gingival smile (broadly exposing
gums and teeth). The facial complexion tends toward blood-red or
ruddy. Hallmarks of the trait include blushing, flushing, and a
second type of mass discharge of the autonomic nervous system: the
narcissistic rage of defence and withdrawal. During expression of
this rage the normally sanguine complexion becomes even more florid.

[Jaded911]

I have never heard of Nism and Autism similarities.  I would have to see some scientific evidence on this one.  Sure they both have anti social characteristics but to compare them would be like comparing a bicycle to a harley davidson IMHO.

My son has been diagnosed with As. Syndrome.  He does not display any N traits what so ever.  Most of his signs and symptoms are sensory related not asshole related like my exN signs and symptoms.  Whoops, did I say my exN displayed asshole characteristics.....true it is!

[dogbit]

My son has been diagnosed with As. Syndrome. He does not display any N traits what so ever. Most of his signs and symptoms are sensory related not asshole related like my exN signs and symptoms. Whoops, did I say my exN displayed asshole characteristics.....true it is!

I totally agree.  There is only a resemblance in the symptoms.

[cosmic clone]

perhaps a major aspect that might make
a major type of connection in some way
could the issue of being self absorbed...
self-absorbed if often an aspect considered
with narcissism
and i think too autism...

[dogbit]

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:05 pm    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
perhaps a major aspect that might make
a major type of connection in some way
could the issue of being self absorbed...
self-absorbed if often an aspect considered
with narcissism
and i think too autism...

Interesting point but every autistic child or adult I know does not have the cunning to use other people to hide or support their sense of entitlement or "rightness".  Have you any experience with autism?  I'd love to hear about it.  Maybe I am wrong.  Maybe an analogy would be that the the narcissist, for example, believing himself/herself to be a gifted artist.  And when the truth comes to surface that they are just a very good artist, then they have to discredit all other artists to support their own conception of themselves as gifted artists.  Those who fall within the autistic spectrum merely just love to draw/paint/ sculpture whatever.  There is not a need to destroy other's beliefs to support their own belief of who they are.  As I've said before, there is only a resemblance between the two diagnoses.

[October]

Just to clarify what I was saying, there are clearly many differences between someone who is Autistic and someone who is Narcissistic.

The point I was interested in is that of connection, because as I see it both have a severe dysfunction in their connectedness with those around them, and I have this same experience when dissociated, as a result of trauma, which results in behaviours which could be said to mimic some autistic behaviours, and perhaps also some narcissistic ones.

I believe very much in a spectrum of behaviours, which includes all of humanity, and that many conditions are extreme versions of normality, whatever that is.  It was stages along that spectrum that I was interested in, as well as the possibility of movement from one to another, perhaps not for everyone, but for some at particular formative moments in their lives.

[Moira]

Hi October. Read with interest your topic. Excellent query about the differences and similairities of N and autism- esp. Aspergers. One of the main differences is that Asperger's folks desperatley want to have intuimate relationships, they just lack the skills. N's are only after 1 thing- how to exploit others to get what they want. Unlilke Aspergers- which is consistently isolative and emotionally incapable, Ns can turn on the social skills and charm when they want something. I think the dissociation you speak of is more related to post traumatic stress disorder. God knows anyone involved with a N is traumatized to the point of feeling you're losing your mind. You haven't lost yourself permanently, you are still the same good person but you're likely so scarred you have no access to your true self. Not to mention the terror of trusting asgain- not only others, but more importantly, yourself. My ex N is OCD and has many of the characteristics common to Aspergers. Interestingly OCD goes very often with N. Lots of obsession and compulsive behaviour with Ns given their impulsivity, abhorence of routine, and extreme boredom.

[October]

One of the main differences is that Asperger's folks desperatley want to have intuimate relationships, they just lack the skills. N's are only after 1 thing- how to exploit others to get what they want. Unlilke Aspergers- which is consistently isolative and emotionally incapable, Ns can turn on the social skills and charm when they want something.

That is an interesting point about Asbergers people wanting to connect.  They kind of do and don't, both at the same time.  There is a definite perception that even though they are different, they are no doubt superior.

But you are right, there is also a striving to understand what makes us tick, and to connect in meaningful ways.  Asbergers are capable of learning the signals that go with emotions in other people, and of responding to them.  One boy I know can recognise when his mother is upset, and ask her if his perceptions are correct, and then offer her a cuddle.  This is after much therapy, but it is a real achievement for both of them.

Can't see my Nmum ever noticing anyone needing comfort like that, and responding appropriately. The times I recall being in this situation she has responded with disbelief, denial or asking me what I am doing, so that I feel like a specimen under a microscope.

Read recently that emotions connect us with reality, and therefore with one another.  Without emotional connections we remain isolated, disconnected, and alone, and we also remain out of touch with reality.  In a sense, we are not fully alive.  That seems to fit.

[dogbit]

There is a definite perception that even though they are different, they are no doubt superior.

October,  this is really interesting to me.  Can you tell me more about the superior part?  At least in your own experience with people with asperger's syndrome.  In my experience, they tend to come across as having an attitude of being superior.  I've thought that this is perhaps a defensive stand on their part??? 

[October]

October,  this is really interesting to me.  Can you tell me more about the superior part?  At least in your own experience with people with asperger's syndrome.  In my experience, they tend to come across as having an attitude of being superior.  I've thought that this is perhaps a defensive stand on their part??? 

Well, most of it would be anecdotal level, but you see the same thing, and hear people commenting about it, in programmes looking at autism on television.

The boy I know is the same age as my daughter; I have known him since he was a baby and to some extent they grew up together.  He is highly intelligent in many ways, but lacks some simple social skills.  When he starts to talk about something that interests him he takes a lot of interrupting, and even more to convince him that he has said enough, and that the people listening cannot listen any longer.  That makes us sound unkind, but it is trying to explain to him that conversation is not him talking endlessly, and everyone else listening forever.  He doesn't do exchange; he does I talk, you listen.

There appears to be a complete failure of comprehension of why others can be so limited in their scope not to share his interests, and his world view.  He knows we are not (always) interested, and he also 'knows' that we should be, and there is an element of pity (for us) as he stops talking and goes back to reading again.

Another example is that he decided he is an atheist, but as part of that he cannot understand at all how other people can hold differing perceptions, and that if they only listen to him long enough, they are bound to agree with him.  He says there is no God, but he cannot understand that there could still be a God, even though he does not believe in him.  We have to all be mistaken.     (And perhaps we are.)

He is a target at school for bullying, and not just from the pupils.  Teachers also collude in it, and his mother is often in despair over this.  She has changed his school several times to try to resolve the problems.  She also takes him to lots of different therapies, and these are having some effect on his behaviour and his connectedness. 

Probably arrogant is the wrong word.  Perhaps it is to do with focus of attention.  If the universe revolves around the Asbergers child, then anything differing from that child is bound to be peripheral.  But there is not the malice that you find in the Ncentric world.  More like pity for our limited viewpoint, as far as I can see.  I don't get the impression that this is defensive in the same way as the Ns denial of reality is.  I don't think there is the same inner fragility of self, or the same need to deny reality.  Asbergers do not deny reality; they just see a different (clearer?) reality from the rest of us, imo. 

There is defensiveness if you try to challenge a particualar behaviour that they find useful, like walking round in circles, as they try to maintain it as long as possible in the face of someone saying stop doing that.  But I still feel that they know in their hearts that if we only could see as they see, we would walk in circles too.

But I am not an expert by any means.  Just some thoughts, really.