My Mother-In-Law Was N?

[Sallying Forth]

I think my H's mother was a N because she thought she'd never die like she did-lying flat on her back totally incapacitated. She thought she'd live forever. [Lots of other reasons too.] Meanwhile her sister is a vibrant, young 94 year old. Luckily my H didn't spend his life with his Nmother. He'll never know the truth about why his parents sent him to live with his aunt. Even on her death bed his Nmother wouldn't tell him.

Here's some other things about her and my H's sister. I think she's got it too ... the N. The sister starting removing everything from her mother's house before she even died! The sister named her daughter after herself and added jr. to the child's name. Sick! Sick! Sick!

His Nmother couldn't raise her own son but raised her three grandchildren when her daughter "threw them away." The Nmother and H's sister neglected (didn't change diapers, feed on time, etc.) the jr child. The two boy grandhildren could do no wrong.

There's lots of other stuff too numerous to mention.

I don't think my H is N but he did have a problem with controlling. He attends a program for that and is improving his behavior. He admitted his wrong doing. Isn't that something a N would never do?

[bunny]

I don't think my H is N but he did have a problem with controlling. He attends a program for that and is improving his behavior. He admitted his wrong doing. Isn't that something a N would never do?

Hi ITexperiment,

Yeah your mom and SIL sound N. Your husband may have narcissistic injuries, which look like narcissism on the surface, but is more like a reaction to the abuse. I think he is noble for admitting and working on his behavior and I wish him all the luck.

bunny

[Moira]

Hi Bunny! Devil's advocate- if your ?H is a N not or has N traits, bear in mind that typically Ns or those with predominant N traits, only go to therapy when there is real threat of major loss or abandonment.It's all about them. They don't go on their own- that would entail not only empathy, but insight and ability to take ownership of their behaviour and effects on others. They use groups and therapy only as another avenue to pull the wool over some one else's eyes- if it's a therapist or psychiatrist, even a bigger accomplishment. They're only perfecting their acting ability- a free theate arts forum! Also group therapy is an excellent source of vulnerable victims to exploit.If he's a N or has those predominant N traits, don't fool yourself that his getting "help" is in any way related to insight and desire to change and consideration for your feelings. I know from professional experience and research, therapy doesn't work for Ns. My ex N loved seeing his shrink because he could bullshit and fool him and what a power trip that is and how smart is he to be able to fool a professional. Another way to get attention and sympathy from others when he tells them how sick he is and what couragious steps he's taking to get better. Also a great way to punish and abuse you- " look what effect YOUR crazy behaviour is having on ME...I have to see a shrink to deal with your torturing me..." Just a caveat- I may be way off base. Something to think about anyway.

[Sallying Forth]

Hi Bunny! Devil's advocate- if your ?H is a N not or has N traits, bear in mind that typically Ns or those with predominant N traits, only go to therapy when there is real threat of major loss or abandonment. It's all about them. They don't go on their own- that would entail not only empathy, but insight and ability to take ownership of their behaviour and effects on others.

Typically controllers don't initially take ownership for their behaviors and the effects on others. However that doesn't make them narcissistic. I've read quite a few books on the different types of controllers/abusers. My H fits type number 1 or the least innocuous. Never been in trouble with the law; never used drugs or alcohol; not physically abusive. I've met the number 3 type and the guy was a narcissistic psychopath. Scarier than my own parents. Glad I never dated him or anyone like him. He creeped me out.

My H's controlling behavior stems from a situation in a relationship which triggers off something inside them. He's identified that incident.

They use groups and therapy only as another avenue to pull the wool over some one else's eyes- if it's a therapist or psychiatrist, even a bigger accomplishment. They're only perfecting their acting ability- a free theate arts forum! Also group therapy is an excellent source of vulnerable victims to exploit.If he's a N or has those predominant N traits, don't fool yourself that his getting "help" is in any way related to insight and desire to change and consideration for your feelings. I know from professional experience and research, therapy doesn't work for Ns.

I know about this and was very alert to this when he first began his group. This is a certified group for abusers/controllers run by two competent psychologists. They've seen through other people's behavior, I sure they would have seen through my H's. They kick out anyone who "pretends" to get it. Actually that person usually kicks themself out by their backwards behavior.

Also my therapist saw him separately from me. I asked my therapist (T) if my H was a psychopath, narcissist, sociopath and you name it because of his controlling behavior. My T says he is none of those. My H was diagnosed with self-defeating behavior, depression and ADHD.

Another way to get attention and sympathy from others when he tells them how sick he is and what couragious steps he's taking to get better.

Actually he doesn't talk about his behavior to others. He's ashamed of it. I made him disclose his treatment of me to his aunt who thinks highly of him. She told him to "get his act together and stop treating me with disrespect." She later told me that she wouldn't even want to kiss a man who treated her that way. I told her I haven't been. She said "good, he doesn't deserve it until he treats you decently."

Also a great way to punish and abuse you- " look what effect YOUR crazy behaviour is having on ME...I have to see a shrink to deal with your torturing me..." Just a caveat- I may be way off base. Something to think about anyway.

Actually like most abusers his response to group was "now where am I supposed get the money for this? "  Yet in the end he got responsible and took care of his behavior.

I need to rely on my gut feelings which are stronger and more reliable everyday. My gut feeling says this is not some ruse. One thing I've learned on my journey toward wholeness is the more I know my self, the less I tolerate abuse, lies, ruses, games, etc. I call him on his stuff and he corrects himself right on the spot. He is no longer defensive. Doesn't sound like a N to me.

As I read from the voicelessness articles to my H today, he could see that his mother, sister, grandmother and grandfather (both mother's side) were/are like the descriptions.

Everything my H did his Nsis had to do and better than him. There was a constant one-up in their relationship.

I find it interesting that we would find each other. And interesting that we are working on these issues at the same time.

[longtire]

Typically controllers don't initially take ownership for their behaviors and the effects on others. However that doesn't make them narcissistic. I've read quite a few books on the different types of controllers/abusers. My H fits type number 1 or the least innocuous. Never been in trouble with the law; never used drugs or alcohol; not physically abusive. I've met the number 3 type and the guy was a narcissistic psychopath. Scarier than my own parents. Glad I never dated him or anyone like him. He creeped me out.

ITexperiment, what books did you read on classifying controllers as Type 1-3?  My wife sounds like #1, but I would like to better understand the differences.  Thanks!

[Sallying Forth]

Hello Longtire,
A great web site for verbal abuse is http://www.drirene.com or Dr. Irene. The lady has her act together. I learned how to start confronting my H on his behavior through her web site.

Here are the best books I have read:

Why Does He Do That?, Inside The Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft
This is one of THE best books I've ever read on abusers. It is mostly for the survivor/victim. It is written for women because more abusers are men. However it can be applied to any relationship. Lundy divides his abuser types into styles. BTW this is not where I found the 3 basic types. This book is on my top 10 list. Abusers are even familiar with Lundy and when the hear his name they cringe. Most abusers call Lundy a liar because the victims learn the truth and start taking back their lives. A very powerful book.

His styles are: The Demand Man; Mr. Right; The Water Torturer; The Drill Sargeant; Mr. Sensitive; The Player; Rambo; The Victim; The Terrorist; The Mentally Ill or Addicted Abuser. Lundy informs the reader which ones are the most dangerous. An abuser can be a combination of different styles. I found my H is a combo of about 3 but really fit squarely with Mr. Right.

The Batterer, A Psychological Profile by Donald G. Dutton, Ph.D. with Susan K. Golant
Although his book focuses on the Cyclical Batterer Dutton defines the three types.
1. Psychopathic Wife Assaulters   No need for a description here.
2. Overcontrolled Wife Assaulters   About 30% of abusers.
         He describes them as distant from their feelings with a strong avoidance and passive-aggressive profile.
         Their anger is usually a result of built-up frustration to an event.
3. Cyclical/Emotionally Volatile Wife Abusers
         "they feel either abandonment or engulfment" around intimacy._p53

Ditch That Jerk, Dealing with Men Who Control and Hurt Women by Pamela Jayne, M.A.
      "Why Some Men Change, Some Men Don't and How to Tell the Difference"
Her 3 types line up with Dutton's three. This is where I rated my H as a number 1.
1.  The Potentially Good Man (Dutton's #2)
        Need to be right;
        A perfectionist;
        Easily frustrated;
        Thinks in black and white;
        Feels overly responsible;
        Dominates or Gives in  plus more
2.  The Definitely Bad Man (Dutton's #3)
        Moody like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde;
        Wants control (like all abusers do);
        Feels vicitmized by the world;
        May isolate his family and himself;
        Uses alcohol or drugs;
        Unrealistic expectations of relationships;
        Chaos in many areas of his life  plus more
3.  The Utterly Hopeless Man (Dutton's #1)
        Sociopathic or Psychopathic or N combo
        Enough said.

Pamela's book is good too and is geared toward the victim discovering whether or not to stay in a relationship.

I recommend getting Lundy and Pamela books. I got a well rounded picture of my H's behavior from the two different views.

[longtire]

Thanks for the recommenedations, ITexperiment, I'll check them out.  I read everything on Dr. Irene's site.  Yes, everything, I'm that way. It took several weeks, but was well worth it to get the messages hammered into me.  I also read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans and that put the final nail in the coffin of my denial.  I've also read a number of other books on Borderline PD, which seems to be my W's main issue.