Author Topic: cutting off the Nfamily, intro  (Read 3065 times)

missm

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cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« on: July 18, 2005, 10:31:01 AM »
Hi, I'm new to the board.  I'm very glad to have found it.  It's comforting to know that other people going through the same things as me.

I was raised by an abusive and emotionally incestuous nmother - who was in turned raised by a violent and sexually abusive nmother.  My father is an enabler - I used to see him as a victim, but I now believe that he is guilty of serious negligence for supporting my nmother in abusing my brother and I as children.  You will be familiar with all the trappings of my upbringing, as I've heard others describe the same things.  What it comes down to is my mother taught me to distrust my body - to hate myself and to not believe anything I felt or thought unless she agreed with me.  She also used me as a therapist from an early age, discussing her feelings about my brother, my father, anyone else who I might form a bond with, and also she described her sexual abuse to me in detail when I was fairly young.  She also let her mother, the child molester, baby-sit me when I was little.  She tried (unsuccessfully) to push me to be sexually active early, I think she was trying to act out her own abuse or fantasies or something.  Also the typical screaming and derision.

I've had a lot of therapy, and made serious strides through my adult life at drawing boundaries with my family and healing myself.  But I realized recently that I had never really cut myself off from them, emotionally.  Because they are so adept at adapting to whatever rules I put forth about interaction (i.e. they're not allowed to criticize me, I moved far away), and because they act out in a really obvious way infrequently, it's taken me a long time to realize how much of the internal nmother is still affecting me, and I believe this is a direct result of my continuing relationship with my parents.  While they are rarely openly abusive any longer, they rely on me for support, cheerleading, understanding and acceptance.  I've realized that I love my parents in a way that is almost entirely maternal, and is inexorably entwined with my own self-loathing and self-denial.  Deep down, I feel that loving myself is wrong, and is in some way a betrayal of my parents.  My mother projected on me all the toxicity she experienced from her abuse, and by remaining emotionally linked to her, I haven't allowed myself to give it back to her.

While my mother has not attacked me openly in a long while, she knows better, our relationship is still pretty boundary-less as she expects me to listen to her criticize and malign the rest of our family, to listen to anything she wants to talk about in reference to her sexual abuse as a child (she started describing it to me before I was 10).  She also likes to blather on and on about whoever is currently victimizing her, and expects me to act as a supporter/therapist/mother and make her feel better about herself, as her ego is very fragile.

My father, while not as actively abusive as my mother, has tried many times to have interactions with me that are inappropriate and make me very uncomfortable.  He often wants to discuss sexuality, is crude, and is intrusive about my personal life. 

About a month ago, with the help of my therapist, I realized that I needed to really make myself emotionally unavailable to them, and have limited my contact since. But when my parents do call, it is very difficult for me not to slip back into the role I have been cast - cheerleader/therapist/emotional dumpster.  I'm usually consumed by guilt after the conversation is over, and incredibly angry at myself for allowing them to use me again.  The compulsion to placate them, and pretend like everything is fine, is overwhelming.  I know that this behavior has been destructive to my self-esteem and quality of life, but it's really, really hard to resist.  I often feel this sense of dread, which somehow my parents are going to hurt me for not parenting them any longer.  The logical, therapy going, meditating, healthy person in me knows this is not true.  But the freaked out inner child is not yet convinced.

Any successful tactics, affirmations, meditations that any of you have used to emotionally disconnect from your nparents would be really welcome.  It's a rough fight.

missm

mudpuppy

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2005, 10:51:07 AM »
Hi missm,

If you are unable to enforce boundaries and it is very unhealthy for you then perhaps you should consider cutting them off.
You said several times you wanted to emotionally disconnect from them. Unfortunately, since Ns survive on emotionally abusive connections, sometimes the only way to disconnect emotionally is to disconnect physically. Not much of a choice they give, is it?

mudpup

Dazza

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2005, 01:29:14 PM »
Hi Missm,

Thanks for your honest post....I sympathize and can personally relate to your family situation.

Meditations and tactics won't cure them or improve the situation. Nothing you can do will cure their emotional sickness. The only thing that seems to help (me, at least) is zero contact with my emotional abusers. You give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

Keep working on your issues with your therapist. I wish you lots of strength and courage to fight the good fight.

Dazza

longtire

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2005, 02:16:39 PM »
Hi missm, I have to admit that your post triggered me very strongly.  I had to go back through to read very carefully to make sure that you were not actually my wife, who had somehow found her way to this site.  My wife endured shockingly similar circumstances growing up, including her mother having been abused by the grandfather and step-grandmother.

Unfortunately, my wife has has not dealt with these very difficult circumstances as well as you seem to have.  I believe she has undiagnosed Borderline PD and have been unable to have anything approaching a mutual relationship with her.  I am separated and moving toward divorce now, since I can't see any way for us to remain together and for me to be healthy around her.  I don't care how strong you think you are, verbal abuse WILL wear you down in the end.  She has never been willing to admit or look at her own behavior and make adjustments.

I applaud you for looking into yourself and being willing to face the difficult, frightening things in yourself and your situation and moving to take care of yourself.  That attitude is a difficult choice, and certainly is not a given.  I wish you all the best in continuing to take care of yourself and maintain your safety.  Your hard work will pay off in a happier life!
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

bunny

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2005, 02:25:33 PM »
Welcome missm, thanks for sharing.

It sounds like you're in a huge bind. If you don't cater to their sick needs, you feel disloyal and "bad." If you do cater to them, you hate yourself. When I find myself in an impossible bind, I try to figure out how I can lessen the severity of it. Maybe I can tolerate being BAD and DISLOYAL more than I can tolerate having fed the monsters. I ask my therapist to help me tolerate whatever I have to, for my best interests.

bunny

missm

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2005, 02:43:07 PM »
Thanks for your kind words.  I'm fairly clear on the fact that I have to limit my contact with my family, and have been doing so.  But I guess I'm hoping to find some middle ground between never talking to them again, and continuing to be automatically available in ways that I consider unhealthy.  They're not so much overtly abusive anymore as parasitic.  I have no intention of sacrificing my peace of mind for their approval now or in the future.  What I struggle with is how much contact to have - and how clearly I should draw my boundaries, since they have no frame of reference to understand my perspective, should I choose to try to communicate it.  At the moment I'm drawing my boundaries through my actions - not calling, and limiting my conversations when they call me.   I struggle with guilt about this, but I know that there is no reason I should sacrifice my own peace of mind for theirs, and that my sense of self and identity is much stronger the less contact I have.  Nothing is black and white, and I don't really want to alienate them permanently.  But I do want to make myself emotionally unavailable to them.  Tricky.

bunny

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2005, 02:57:37 PM »
The way to enforce boundaries (IMO) is not to "explain" the boundaries (doesn't work) but to simply act them out. If your parent starts telling you inappropriate things, abruptly say you have to get off the phone and do it. Then tolerate the guilt. Next time it will be easier. It's all about pavlovian training of these people. Rewards and punishments until they figure out what will fly with you and what won't.

bunny

missm

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2005, 03:18:51 PM »
The way to enforce boundaries (IMO) is not to "explain" the boundaries (doesn't work) but to simply act them out. If your parent starts telling you inappropriate things, abruptly say you have to get off the phone and do it. Then tolerate the guilt. Next time it will be easier. It's all about pavlovian training of these people. Rewards and punishments until they figure out what will fly with you and what won't.

I agree, bunny.  Good to have it reinforced.  I think it's all about Pavlovian training myself as well.  Knowing I can tolerate the guilt,  *will* make it progressively easier.

Xenia

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2005, 01:38:22 PM »
I think you are absolutely spot-on Bunny.  When I was training my dog I remember that a lot of the approaches (praise the behaviour you like, ignore the behaviour you don't, interrupt/distract what you can't ignore) were effective in managing the behaviour of my nmother.  Can't remember examples, but do remember some very gratifying outcomes that directly related back to the training I was doing with the dog....

BG

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2005, 04:05:27 PM »
Hello missm -

I am dealing with a similar circumstance presently, can't say for sure if what I'm trying is/will be successful for even me, but perhaps might be helpful.

I've gone through many years of personal growth/therapy to untangle a complicated web of family dysfunction which had some obvious problems (alcoholism/mental illness) and only within the past year realized the dominant role of NPD in my mother has played...it was so insidious and painful to admit that I couldn't/didn't see it for what it was for many years, which made for a very confusing situation...but now certain things make perfect, albeit nasty, sense.

And when I first came on this board I had genuine desire to somehow retain some type of relationship with my other siblings/mother, and when reading stories of people who simply cut off their N-families, felt that was too drastic for my situation.   But after making best efforts, and getting mildly burned as a result, I've recently realized that it will be best to have as little as possible to do with my N-mother and siblings (who are highly enmeshed in her NPD).

The wrinkle in my situation is having 2 young children who know/remember their grandma, as well as really developed a bond with their cousins (an enmeshed sibling's kids) during some prior visits.  We live across the country from the N-mother and rest of family (no coincidence), so my kids don't necessarily see the abrupt change in relationship that already has taken place between me and my family after I broke the silence about how emotionally abusive we have all been to each other as a result of how we were raised...but my wife and I have been essentially shunned by the rest of the family...cut off, but not cut off, sort of a hang-nail treatment emotionally.  The N-family system seems to have pushed us into some abused-subordinate role...despite some earnest attempts to engage with my siblings, N-mother and sort some of this out, there has been what could be described as a coordinated withdrawal, and the only communication is on their terms, usually with some overtone of 'message' that is crazy-making to figure out/process.  We could remain in this dangling situation -- passively mistreated/disrespected, etc etc -- or we could take the initiative and simply cut these folks out of our lives, emotionally.  That's what we've decided to do.

Our current goal is to have our kids know abstractly they have relatives 'out there' by way of receiving nominal birthday/x-mas cards, and at some point when they are much older to explain -why- we don't see much (if any) of these family members, and let them to decide whether to have closer relationships on their own.  In otherwords, we see value that our kids know they have cousins in their generation that they might someday in the future connect/reconnect with, even if the adults in the prior generation don't have much to do with each other.  But in the meantime, we'll redirect our emotional energy (for our kids and us) at friends and my wife's family members...in otherwords, build a network of other loving/supportive relationships, so that the lack of 'real' relationship with my N-mother and siblings doesn't amount to a void, merely an abstract fact-of-life to my kids.

What my wife and I are now trying is the following:

- any letter from my family member she opens, scans, then throws away.  If there is key factual info, such as a major illness or death, she'll let me know -- she won't tell me anything else, and generally our policy is to simply not act/respond to any request/action, etc. And definitely not respond to the context of the letter, which may contain the usual suspects of manipulations/innuendo, etc.

- we got CallerID on the phone so we know if a call from them is coming in (none do, but at some point I won't be surprised if they start trying to flush us out)...if a message is left from a family member, my wife will listen to it, using same policy above.

- one brother who I keep in touch with has schizophrenia -- after the rest of the family shunned him, I re-engaged and keep in touch via email and phone, but even lately I realize he is part of the emotionally abusive web, and have requested that he not discuss any family related matters.  If I hear on voice-mail him mention my extended family members I stop the play-back.  And I've not done it yet but if needed create a separate email folder to route his messages to so I can review them at my leisure.

- send b-day cards and simple Christmas gifts to nieces/nephews, but discontinue anything sent to the adults.

This approach only works if my family's N-dysfunction doesn't get under my wife's skin given her 'filtering' role of the letters/phone calls, and so far so good -- she doesn't have the same buttons to push that I do.  Though at the first sign that she is getting emotionally jack-knifed by this process we'll try something else (she goes to therapy herself, so in addition to she and I checking in about how she is feeling about this role, she has someone else who is keeping an eye out).   The upside to this approach, according to my wife, is that she gets to see greater evidence of how screwed up my N-mother is:  she is lagging me a little in terms of how we regard extent of my N-mother's problem and the benefit/need to disengage.  It's too early to tell if this will work, but it feels much better to be pursuing my own interests on my own terms.  My family's manipulations are relatively harmless, with distance and lack of communication...not all these situations are this easy to disengage from...but we'll drop these folks entirely if any evidence of them using even the nominal communication with our kids to weave their manipulative web.

I would add that the decision to cut off your family will likely be uniquely personal, and not something that can be digested simply by seeing what/how other people have done it, or recommend that it be done. But chalk me up as an initial skeptic (of the cutting-off option) who has come around to that conclusion.

Hang in there and trust yourself to find the right path.

BG

mudpuppy

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2005, 04:26:54 PM »
Hi BG,

Now, this is a man with a plan. 8)

Just wanted to make one small point concerning shunning. You seem to understand it, but it can be pretty confusing to some people when they first experience it.
Its only very slightly about removing an irritant from their lives.
Its much more about psychological pressure to force the shunee to return to the fold. To them its a win-win. If the trouble maker doesn't come back, he can be used as a whipping boy in abstentia and a scapegoat, if he buclkles under the ostracisation and returns to the fold to get them off his back so much the better; he's back in their web, as you put it.
Shunning is mostly about a last ditch effort to enforce conformity to the group, not as much about expelling a wayward member. That's my experience anyway.

And they're very patient about waiting for the 'black sheep' to return. Unfortunately, if we go back, they intend to make lamb chops out of us. :? :(

mudpup

October

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2005, 02:09:10 PM »

Just wanted to make one small point concerning shunning. You seem to understand it, but it can be pretty confusing to some people when they first experience it.
Its only very slightly about removing an irritant from their lives.
Its much more about psychological pressure to force the shunee to return to the fold. To them its a win-win. If the trouble maker doesn't come back, he can be used as a whipping boy in abstentia and a scapegoat, if he buclkles under the ostracisation and returns to the fold to get them off his back so much the better; he's back in their web, as you put it.
Shunning is mostly about a last ditch effort to enforce conformity to the group, not as much about expelling a wayward member. That's my experience anyway.

mudpup

This describes very well the way my family treats me.  They hold family lunches and dinners without inviting me (or even mentioning that these things are happening), and exchange family news and emails without including me, and I hear things second or third hand some time later on.  I think I am supposed to feel left out. 

Fortunately, I feel relief at not being at the centre of the spider's web any more, and when I hear the news I react with the calmest indifference ever seen.    8)

Some years ago I told my dad that I was being excluded from the family, and he told me that is not true; he said I am excluding myself.  Now I just think, 'whatever ... :lol:

Sallying Forth

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Re: cutting off the Nfamily, intro
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 11:31:31 PM »
But I guess I'm hoping to find some middle ground between never talking to them again, and continuing to be automatically available in ways that I consider unhealthy.  They're not so much overtly abusive any more as parasitic.

It's that covert abuse which really sucks! I find my Nparents using more and more devious, covert, underhanded ways to make inroads into my life. My Nfather has his new tactic. My Nmother has hers. They want me to call that is the purpose. Pull me into something. I remained detached. My Nf's tactic is sexually harrassing email.

Luckily my Nbrother doesn't contact me. I took care of that years ago with a nasty birthday card to him. Money's tight, Times are hard, Here's your f***ing birthday card. :twisted: For some reason it really put him in his place and he hasn't contacted me since. I guess I was no longer easy prey. After that he decided his xwife and then new wife were a lot easier to abuse.

I've haven't found a middle ground yet. For the most part (except a brief time 7 years ago), I've kept my physcial and emotional distance for 15 years. The less I interact with them, the better for me.

My Nparents biggest ploy is money. They dole a little out at a time to keep everyone in the family on their strings and connected to the source. I've learned to accept the money without connection to it's source. It's kind of strange and difficult to explain. I've used every dime to better my life; for my health, businesses, etc. and without 1 ounce of guilt or emotional connection to the givers.

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What I struggle with is how much contact to have - and how clearly I should draw my boundaries, since they have no frame of reference to understand my perspective, should I choose to try to communicate it.  At the moment I'm drawing my boundaries through my actions - not calling, and limiting my conversations when they call me.

I never call them any more. I don't have any guilt about it because I'm taking care of myself. At first, 15 years ago, it was difficult. However after a couple of years it felt right. I did contact them briefly about 10 years later only to see nothing had changed with my Nparents. My Nbro was now abusing his 2nd wife and so someone knew what I had been through. She confided in me during that visit. I even took her side during some argument. My Nbro shot me daggers with his eyes and I ignored him.

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Nothing is black and white, and I don't really want to alienate them permanently.  But I do want to make myself emotionally unavailable to them.  Tricky.

Definitely tricky.

I call it a mind f***. Damned if I do contact them, damned if I do not. I was placed in these mind f*** situations over and over throughout my childhood. It's a no win no matter what the decision within their "game."

I have made a choice outside their imposed box. It is time for win-win. Time for being in win-win relationships. Time for living. Time for freedom - outside the box. I'm now thinking outside their box.

Posted by: October
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This describes very well the way my family treats me.  They hold family lunches and dinners without inviting me (or even mentioning that these things are happening), and exchange family news and emails without including me, and I hear things second or third hand some time later on.  I think I am supposed to feel left out. 

Fortunately, I feel relief at not being at the centre of the spider's web any more, and when I hear the news I react with the calmest indifference ever seen.   

Some years ago I told my dad that I was being excluded from the family, and he told me that is not true; he said I am excluding myself.  Now I just think, 'whatever ... ':lol:

Wow that sounds so familiar! My Nm ended up in some hospital near death a couple of years ago and a couple of days afterwards I finally get a call. Not from my Nf either like I thought he would. It was one of my non-Nbros.

That same bro didn't have my email address [we do 'talk' back and forth and he is supportive though he has mega emotional problems - gee I wonder why?] because my Nf wouldn't give it to him. I happened to see his new email address and changed it in my computer. That wasn't communicated to me either.

I said the same thing to my Nparents about being excluded and heard almost the same reply you got October. Now I take it in stride as a part of their dysfunctionality. They are never going to change. :)
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D