How to prevent damage to children from Narcissistic father?

[rjtal29]

I'm not quite sure how to use this forum but I've wanted to do this for a long time. 

I have a narcissistic ex and joint custody with him with 3 children, ages 12, 10 and 9 and I am desperately trying to prevent them from being damaged from their father.  Unfortunately we have joint custody b/c I was too stressed during our divorce to fight and just wanted the divorce.  This was the only way to get him to cooperate.  It's amazing that someone who has been diagnosed with this disorder would be allowed to have ANY custody but it has happened!  I would love to speak with other people about this because dealing with him is a constant struggle in my life!!!  He is so difficult to communicate with and constantly tries to demean me and make me look like a bad mother.  He has accused me of almost everything, including abusing my children.  Unfortunately, most therapists don't understand the depth of Narcissism and how destructive it can be.

Rebecca

[kilrum]

Hi rjtal29,

I was fortunate not to have kids with my XN, but I just wanted to say I fully understand your distress at having this man have joint custody.  The N I was with has 5 children with two other women and I have seen first hand how he manipulates and uses the kids to make the Xs lives a living hell.  Found out all you can, a great place to start is with Dr. Sam Vaknin, I'm sure there was a link to dealing with the N in court, which included child custody issues.  Hope this is of help.

Kilrum

[rjtal29]

Thanks for the response.  I have already read a lot of Sam Vaknin's stuff, it helped me during the divorce.  I just wish there was more hands advice and techniques on how to diffuse my ex's insults and controlling behavior.

[Brigid]

Dear rjtal29,
I just wanted to say welcome.  I share custody with my xnh, but my children are 17 and 20 so it is really not an issue and he has very little involvement in their lives.  I think many of us would disagree with much of what Mr. Vaknin says, but you will find many kindred spirits among the posters on this site who can help you navigate through the bs with your x and help your children to cope.  I don't envy your plight.

Blessings,

Brigid

[Sela]

Hi Rjtal29:

Welcome.  I'm sorry to hear that you have had such a rough go of it and are still having to deal with such a tricky situation.   Some day, the kids will be grown and you won't have to communicate with him much, if at all!   Start planning the party now!!!  It won't be thaaaaaaaat long (they grow up so fast!).

For now, though....I'd say do whatever possible to keep things as amicable as you can with their ding dong dad.    The children have to live with him half of the time and they're the people getting the rawest end of the stick.   If you can think of it as you might say.....dealing with one of their teachers.....(more accurately a crappy, nasty teacher)....it might be easier to get the job done.  After all, if they had a crappy, nasty teacher, you might not want to  agrivate him/her as it could make their lives tougher at school, right?  So how would you deal with that teacher?   I'd probably try not to sweat the small stuff and tread carefully but firmly and as sweetly as possible in regard to the stuff that was really important.  Without doing hand stands or flip flops, I bet it's possible to minimize communicating with this dorky dad  and not mince too many words, when you must. 

Have you tried writing or emailing?  Just wondering if it might be possible sometimes and help to think about what you want to say....give time to cool your reactions before replying???  Even the telephone is handy because you can always hang up quick, if the need arises.

I'd say some good things to the children about their father and certainly not express much else to them in the form of criticism of their father.  They are stuck in the middle.  As they get older, they'll decide for themselves anyway.   If they feel comfortable expressing their feelings to you and you are available to listen, that will likely be the very best thing you can do to help them deal with their dynamo dad. ( )

It's not easy but if you can find a way to interact peacefully with him, the children will benefit by not having to feel the strain of yucky discussions and their parent's emotions.  If you can train yourself NOT to react to his craziness, manipulations, etc....you will be my new heroine and well on your way to doing the very best you possibly can, in a situation that is not very nice at all.

Hope this helps even a little.

  Sela

[rjtal29]

Thank you for your advice.  I read some of your other responses and you are very intuitive.  I don't know your story, but you obviously understand the dynamics of narcissism and how it affects the family. 

I agree with you about trying to be as amicable as possible, but he does everything to prevent that and then of course blames me for being argumentative.  He LIVES for the argument and will do anything to try to pull me in.  We only speak via the telephone and as little as possible, although in our marital settlement we agreed to only communicate through e-mail.  It lasted for a short time until he started to send me obnoxious monologues and berate me about my motherhood, etc.   Then he just wouldn't answer my emails, and now, as far as I know, he no longer has a working computer!

My biggest concern is that he is now trying to prevent my children from doing activities for their self-development.  He claims that it is all about me and my selfish desires.  I put my youngest in Karate to help him control his anger and gain some self discipline and my oldest is a very talented singer and was the lead in a big show last year.  I signed him up for voice lessons and he wants to be in a musical again this year.  My ex is trying to manipulate my children to not do these things and he almost succeeded!!  I just can't believe that he can be such a jerk!!  It's a frustrating experience but I will defiinitely take your advice and try not to react because I think that is really the smartest thing.  He LOVES it when I react, it makes him feel alive.

The one good thing is that I am remarried to a reallly great man who is a wonderful role model to my children.  I feel really lucky that I was given another chance b/c I had no desire to get remarried after my divorce.  There is hope!

[Cadbury]

Wow, reading your posts describes my ex to a T. He does everything you say your ex does. I have just had a baby with him (long story - see post on "Baby is Here - now what") and he is being awful. As you say it is all about the fight for him. The only thing that seems to have any impact on him is to ignore him as much as possible. He has said I am schizophrenic and abusive. I just say "I dispute that". There is no point (as you know) trying to enter into discussion with him as he does not listen. He is incapable of listening. I really do think that pretending none of it affects you is the only thing that will get to him. No matter what he says or does, just respond in a calm manner. Almost as if you cannot hear the bad things. My ex sent me a text the other day with a load of rubbish on it, plus one question on how our son is. I ignored the crap and sent back "He is fine. Growing well." Nothing more.

I also know how hard it is not to say things to your children, especially if he is coming out with blatent lies. Just try and say things to them such as "Well, I don't agree with that. " Don't try and defend your position or give your side. Just disagree and leave it. (Very, very hard to do!). That way, as people aboive have said, your children will form their own opinion. It wouldn't be fair to them for you to add to the nastiness that their father is perpetuating. This means you have to be a far bigger person than he is, but then you are normal, so that shouldn't be hard!

Take care, I hope it gets easier. I find that I have to repeat a mantra some days "I am a good mother, I am a good mother,... he is a raving loon, he is a raving loon ...." Just to get through it all! Good luck!

[OR]

Rjtal29

I will tell you to hang in there. I think with your children's ages they will have their situation with their dad all figured out  before long. Keep them informed about what an N is, as you learn they are text book, what you read about most N's they are a lot alike. If you can understand more they will learn from you, and like you how to deal with the N's difficult ways.

I might buy some ear plugs when your around your N. Make alot of loud noise so you don't have to listen to the crazy talk. Ignore what they say, like he's a little old senile man. Don't expect him to achieve his father role for you or the kids. He will not have but little pieces of what a father should be, so be glad for those little pieces. Move on to find good role models. Do the Duck, weave, and Bob his attacks.


The children will have a big lesson in forgiveness from you, because the dad will not teach forgivness.
 He may  hold on to each hurt causing his hateful heart towards most people he is in contact with.

I have a 12 yr old and going thru the big D too.

I have to go to work ..............hope this helps a little..............OR

[rjtal29]

Thank you to everyone for responding!  It is so comforting to know that there are others in the world who can relate to what I am going through.  Most of my friends are married to normal, nice men and can't really understand what dealing with this kind of person is like.  Although they do have a lot of sympathy for me b/c they do know him and have seen his foolish actions.

I have noticed that many people don't even know what narcissism is because it is soooooo hard to explain unless you have actually lived it.  The double talk, patholigical lying, verbal abuse, unresponsiveness, I could go on and on and on. 

My biggest regret is agreeing to joint custody with this man, but unfortunately I was in a vulnerable state of mind at the time and didn't think I had any other options.  If anyone has any experience with changing custody arrangements, I would like to hear about it.  I know that it is not an easy thing to do, but I haven't totally ruled it out.  It might be the only way to save my children.

I really appreciate all the advice, it truly helps!

[Sela]

Hi Rjtal29:

Thankyou for the kind complements.  That is very generous of you and too much, really.

He LIVES for the argument and will do anything to try to pull me in.

This must be an N trait because it's very popular!!!

So.......the trick then is ......to not let him pull you in, right?  You can decide not to let him (not that anything is easy but if you start working at this now.....and keep trying....after awhile.....you will be an expert and it won't seem so difficult!!).

I'm glad you only speak by phone and not too often!!  So, he's in violation of your marital agreement eh?  And he has no working pc?  I bet!!!   As if!!  Good excuse though eh?

...he started to send me obnoxious monologues and berate me about my motherhood, etc.

I agree with those who have advised you to ignor his crazy talk.  Example of how this could go now:

He says:  "You are a crappy mother."

You say:  "So what time are you picking the kids up tomorrow?"

He says:  "And not only that but you're fat and ugly and you smell bad!"

You say:  "Probably the usual eh?  7 pm.  Ok then."

He says:  "You're a b------- and a c------- and f--------n cow too!"

You say:  "There seems to be a problem with our connection.  I can't hear what you're saying.   I'll have the children ready by 7pm tomorrow.  Bye for now."

Hang up and imagine the total and utter confusion on his face.

He claims that it is all about me and my selfish desires.

More potential examples:

He says:  "You only want _______(son) in singing so you can have your selfish need met to see him up on a stage, like some star, to make yourself look like a great mother!!"

You say:  "_______(son) is such a good singer isn't he?  I bet you're proud of his effort and how well he does when he's performing.  I wonder if he gets that from your side of the family?"

He says:  "You want _______(son) in karate because it's all about you and your need to have a big, tough, son, so you can look like you you've done this marvelous job of raising him!!"

You say:  "_______(son) is learning so many skills in karate that will help him become a responsible adult.  I bet you're glad he's trying so hard and putting such a good effort into learning karate.  I know it's inconvenient to take him to practice sometimes but I bet you don't mind."

I my experience with these people, if I turn their insults of me into some positive statement about them......they get that ....pathetic.....confused look on their face and it seems to shut them up fairly quick.  This may or may not work with your ex.  Worth a try maybe???

My ex is trying to manipulate my children to not do these things and he almost succeeded!

I know where you're coming from.  This is very frustrating and upsetting.  It makes me angry to think about and it makes me want to go over there and hog tie him to a hydro pole and throw paper airplanes at him (complete with my opinions typed inside them)!!!

However.....this is probably the response he wants.  So....don't give it to him.  Instead, keep encouraging your children, reminding them of all the benefits of their activities, how proud you are of their involvement in those activities, how glad you are that they enjoy those things, how you look forward to their karate belt exams and muscial performances...etc.  You're not manipulating them by encouraging them to participate in stuff they like that will benefit them.  I have no qualms with you manipulating him into thinking it's all his talents they've inherited, how good it makes him look, what a great dad he is for taking them to their practices, etc.  For your kids.......whatever helps make their lives easier......manipulate away!!    Better you than him!!

I just can't believe that he can be such a jerk!!

It's hard to believe any parent would behave like him but he's really not a parent.   He's a toddler trying to look like a parent.  He hasn't got a clue how to parent or at least.....much desire.

I will defiinitely take your advice and try not to react because I think that is really the smartest thing.  He LOVES it when I react, it makes him feel alive.

Exactly!!  Good for you!!!  Do your best!!  Don't let him push your buttons.....or think what he says has any effect on you.  It will take a little bit of practice but you'll get there!!  Count to 5 before replying?  Take a deep breath?  Imagine him in a diaper?  Whatever helps you to be cool and calm and adult....will likely help.

I'm so glad to hear that you are happily married now!!  That is so wonderful to hear!!  Thanks for sharing your hope!!  

Sela

[Moira]

Hi Sela! I really like your dialogue examples of responses to N abuse and provocation. Excellent!!! Gives the old N nothing to work with. As I've said in other thread, I believe completely ignoring all provocative statements and not reacting or acknowledging it all is the best and most effective way to shut them down and make them back off( until the next round eh? Ns have a remarkable inability to learn from past mistakes).

[rjtal29]

You all have really great advice and I appreciate it.  IT IS SO HARD TO IGNORE WHAT HE SAYS.  He knows exactly how to push my buttons and piss me off.  I have never felt so much disdain for anyone!  I feel the worst for my children who have a father like that and of course, at this point, they think he is a hero and the most wonderful daddy in the world. (Although, they have caught him in several lies recently.)

My new husband keeps telling me not to let him push my buttons but I keep falling into the trap.  My husband completely ignores the exN b/c when we first got married the exN threatened him and accused him of abusing my children.  The exN even somehow made the kids believe it for a short time which is UNBELIEVABLE.  Narcissists are master manipulators... it's scary how people can be brainwashed so easily.  I know, I was one of them! 

I am so thankful that I have good friends and family (and now this forum)as a support system.

Does anyone know if Narcissists get worse with age or better or stay the same?

[Moira]

Hi all!! Sorry I didn't note who exactly I'm responding to in terms of question- Do Ns get better or worse with age?. All the research I've done indicates Ns get worse with age, which makes sense considering they now have a lifetime of perfected bitterness, hate, fear and abuse techniques. Also Ns tend to really decompensate when they lose parents- esp. mother, if male N. Besides, after decades of " being misunderstood, taken advantage of, abused...by the whole world" this just cements all their delusional beliefs and abusive behaviour. I'm interested in other's opinions, observations.

[OR]

rjtal29

been diagnosed with this disorder

Can you tell about what the courts say regarding his diagnosis.


OR

[rjtal29]

Hi Or,

I'm not sure what you mean by that question but when I left my husband, he basicallly freaked out and started accusing me of abusing the children and he was so passionate about his case that even people who knew me and knew that I would never do such a thing, started to believe my ex or at least were beginning to wonder.

We were seeing a Psychologist to try to mediate our divorce and I think even HE was unsure because my ex came up with all these elaborate lies and stories.  They were so intense that at one point I STARTED TO DOUBT MYSELF!   The Psychologist suggested that we both take a Psychological Evaluation to see what was really going on and that is how my ex got his diagnosis!  He was diagnosed with Histrionic Personality Disorder and NPD.  It was really a shock for me b/c I was basically in denial, but it was also a BIG RELIEF!  It wasn't me who was crazy!

Maybe this will answer your question.... I thought we would be able to use the Psych Eval in court to prove my case and allow me to gain Primary Custody, but it didn't work out that way b/c my ex made everything so difficult.  He wouldn't even respond to his own lawyer.  The Psychologist and the lawyers convinced me (in my vulnerable state of mind) to just agree to joint custody and get the divorce, because going to trial would be a financial and emotional nightmare.  So I had this diagnosis on paper and nothing to do with it except to make myself feel better that I wasn't the crazy one!  I have debated many times about whether I will ever show it to my children.  I know they are too young now, but you never know in the future, it might come in handy!  I'm not sure if I can use it in court now if I decide to fight for Primary custody.