Author Topic: irritated about therapy  (Read 4835 times)

d'smom

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irritated about therapy
« on: August 15, 2005, 03:04:54 PM »
i am really irritated about this and i just want to know what other people think.

i have watched people here deal with all different levels of 'therapy'. some people seem to have more high quality therapy, with attentive involved therapists, who see them frequently, give them information, are real about their problems, and are actually helpful over time. other people seem to have low quality therapy with therapists who 'phone it in' dont listen or care, abandon patients, minimise and dismiss issues, etc.

i myself in my life have had a lot of therapy and ive had both kinds. back when i was younger and my parents were paying a lot of money for it, i remember very involved educated therapists who were very attentive and creative and invested in solving my problems and helping me with what i needed help with. they saw me every week, they did whatever necessary to address the issues that i actually had. i felt like they were helping.

as an adult i have had crappy government insurance and crappy government therapy.  with this you are fortunate if you get a few hours a month.  (i know in some countries - a couple hours a month seems like heaven so im totally aware of that).

but more deeply - it seems as though the criteria for being 'well' is totally different. with this criteria - as long as you are not either killing yourself or actively psychotic, you are considered 'well'. they have NO interest in exploring deeper issues, family patterns, nothing.  if you are barely functional and covered with band-aids, you are considered 'ok' enough, and they consider your therapy is 'done'.  also you are not allowed to set your own therapy goals. the therapy goals are decided by the government.

you can tell the therapist what you want to work on, but if it doesnt fit criteria on the govt's list, you wont work on that.  how can you be in therapy when you arent even working on what you want to work on?

it seems to come down to who is paying.  if i was paying privately, the therapist would (if i picked a good one) be accountable to who was paying them (me) and be working for me, and presumably, helping with what i wanted help with.

if the govt is paying, they are accountable to the govt.... and working on what the govt wants us to work on... and helping what the govt wants me to have help with, meaning insuring im not running the streets being a problem for the government. its not about me or my life or my problems, at all.

im having trouble reconciling this. i am legally disabled becuase of being hit by a car.  its not like im a criminal or something. shouldnt these people be just as interested in helping me as a privately paid therapist/??

its very strange for me to be realising this but it just isnt true. they are working for the govt. their therapy goal for me is to insure im not violent or a problem for the government. *my* therapy goals are not what is at issue with them.

i know its all about money and theres no budget and thats constraining them. but in practice - they do a huge amount of minimising and denying, which makes me feel totally revictimised. if i need someone to enable my abusers the last person i want to do it is my own therapist. i feel like they are doing a really crappy job, no matter who is paying them.  why do these people try to convince you there is no problem just beucase its not on 'their list' or becuase theres no budget to pay for it? that is so revictimising. at least they could be real with you that the problem does exist and that THEY dont have the budget to pay for it.

im truly happy if anyone has a good therapist dont get me wrong.. but, it irritates me, when i see people talking about what 'good' therapists 'should' do but i rarely see it mentioned what happens when you have these braindead govt therapists.  i want quality therapy, not everyone here is paying straight cash for theirs im sure, so how do you get it?  ....

its a huge deal to even change therapists, because with this insurance, you cannot even go for an intake with another therapist, unless you 'switch' your coverage to them entirely......... so there is no option of interviewing anyone. you have to commit to someone without even knowing anything about them. then you have to do the whole process again to do a different intake and interview anyone else.

im a committed person that wants to work and improve myself, this is irritating me beyond words. i just changed to my 3rd govt therapist (after sticking w/ the last one for 3 years)  and shes already turning in an underwhelming performance,  altering my therapy goals to coincide with 'the list'.. minimising problems she cant deal with..... etc.... just like the other two did. and she is supposed to be one of the 'better' ones.

what do you think, do i just be honest and confront this therapist with my feelings? chances are she will totally deny it all and think im trying to manipulate her or something. i always want to be straight and honest, but that usually seems to offend people. but i cant take this. its worse than no therapy at all.

HELP!!!










vunil

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2005, 03:19:45 PM »
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what do you think, do i just be honest and confront this therapist with my feelings? chances are she will totally deny it all and think im trying to manipulate her or something. i always want to be straight and honest, but that usually seems to offend people. but i cant take this. its worse than no therapy at all.


YES.  Absolutely.  Maybe she won't be able to deal with it, maybe she will.  But I would give her the chance.  And she deserves the feedback if she is coming across this way to you.

And you deserve two things-- the chance to say what you are so angry about to the person you are angry with (how often can we do this? I have the nerve to do it hardly ever, even though I espouse its benefits-- but in this case you are paying her so it is something that is much easier to do-- she's not a friend), and the chance to make things better.

You don't have to worry about offending a therapist-- it's in the relationship that everything is all about you.   If she IS offended and treats it like some sort of friendship where she has been let down by you, then that is really out of line in therapy-- something also to point out to her (and to yourself).  In working through that next stage there still may be a lot of good that can come from the conversation.

Even if things don't get better and/or you don't learn anything from the exact encounter with her, it is damaging to the soul to walk around with this anger without saying anything to her.  She works for you.  You have the right to express your desires.

I'm sorry it's been difficult.  I hope that your next conversation with her at least brings release, and maybe peace.

Plucky as guest

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2005, 04:06:33 PM »
Quote
what do you think, do i just be honest and confront this therapist with my feelings? chances are she will totally deny it all and think im trying to manipulate her or something. i always want to be straight and honest, but that usually seems to offend people. but i cant take this. its worse than no therapy at all.

YES.  Absolutely.  Maybe she won't be able to deal with it, maybe she will.


Metoometoometoo.   Definitely speak up.  If not, you are collaborating on your own voicelessness!  I would guess that many therapists are frustrated by the conditions they have to work under.  You will see if yours is one of these.
Plucky

Sallying Forth

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2005, 06:31:45 PM »
i am really irritated about this and i just want to know what other people think.

im truly happy if anyone has a good therapist dont get me wrong.. but, it irritates me, when i see people talking about what 'good' therapists 'should' do but i rarely see it mentioned what happens when you have these braindead govt therapists.  i want quality therapy, not everyone here is paying straight cash for theirs im sure, so how do you get it?  ....

what do you think, do i just be honest and confront this therapist with my feelings? chances are she will totally deny it all and think im trying to manipulate her or something. i always want to be straight and honest, but that usually seems to offend people. but i cant take this. its worse than no therapy at all.

I'm on disability, no government is paying for my therapy, and I pay cash and can only afford it 2 times a month. I wish I could go more. I've seen the same t for 13 years. He's excellent, educated and I tell him what doesn't work, what I don't like, what I need, etc. Over the years I've confronted my t many times.

There was one incident about 3 months ago when he thought I wasn't progressing towards grieving. When in fact I had been grieving since for over 5 months. It turned out that he felt overly responsible to make sure I was because my therapeutic process isn't like any of his other clients. He's learning to trust the client's process even when it's outside the box. I think that was a huge step for him and for me. To confront him about what I thought he said (but didn't say) was empowering.

Yes, do be honest and confront the therapist. They wont know what they're doing wrong or right unless you tell them.
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bunny

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2005, 06:40:14 PM »
what do you think, do i just be honest and confront this therapist with my feelings? chances are she will totally deny it all and think im trying to manipulate her or something. i always want to be straight and honest, but that usually seems to offend people. but i cant take this. its worse than no therapy at all.

A therapist isn't supposed to get offended by a client's honesty. So if she gets offended, there is no therapy happening anyway. You have nothing to lose, tell her what you think. Go for it.

bunny










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vunil

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2005, 08:10:38 PM »
I'll also add that it might seem she is offended even though she isn't (complicated reasons for this-- the expectation that she might be, the knowledge that we would be in the same situation, she makes funny facial expressions that aren't expressing what she is thinking, etc).  So if she seems offended, it would be good to call her on that, too. 


I know it seems like a pain, but this could be something really good.  And if not, well, you are already pretty pissed off at the whole thing!  So there doesn't seem much to lose.

irishrose

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2005, 03:18:04 AM »
I'm sorry this is happening to you.  Living in the UK, the situation is even worse.  The most amazing thing happened to me, I had short-term therapy (6 weeks) with a 'counsellor' and was accepted onto a scheme whereby truly gifted therapists give their time voluntarily.  I saw mine three times a week for NINE years and it was free.  He will remain a guiding light in my life and I will be forever grateful.

October

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2005, 07:44:09 AM »
My own view is taken from the theory of organisations or institutions.  The organisation exists to perpetuate itself, and the principal aim of each and every part of that organisation is the maintenance of the status quo, at all costs.  Any individual within the organisation is expendable to that end, and the weakest are the most expendable of all.

Change is always perceived as a threat, and is always resisted.  Dissent is always seen as an abberration (or in t terms pathological), and compliance the only acceptable route.

So then we apply this to the NHS, and its provision of medical services or therapy to people such as myself.  The rules are set by the doctors, and followed by the patients.  Some flexibility is claimed, but it is not authentic.  For example, you have a one hour session.  You are able as the patient to change this to 50 minutes if you prefer, but you cannot change it to 65.  You can choose to see the doctor fortnightly, but you cannot choose to see him/her twice a week.  You cannot even arrange a new appointment if he misses one; that is just too bad.  You wait a fortnight or three weeks or as long as it takes.

It is claimed that the rules are there to protect both patient and therapist, but the protection is unbalanced, and very much in favour of the professional.  In the UK the patient is 'protected' for one hour per week maximum.  There is no safety net whatsoever, apart from the A&E department.  The therapist is protected 24/7.

Promises which are made turn out to be conditional.  They are kept only if the doctor remembers them, and if the patient insists on them.  Otherwise they are conveniently forgotten.  If challenged, the doctor responds by saying something like; 'you didn't seem bothered, so I didn't think it was important any more.'  In other words, they base their decisions to break their word on unverified (and wrong) assumptions about your internal state.  And that is supposed to be ok.

The relationship never has the chance to become one of adult:adult cooperation.  It is designed to create a dependency, based on punishment:reward.  Maybe even Stockholm syndrome stuff.

The provision is geared 100% to the needs of the therapist, rather than the needs of the patient.

Claims are made about privacy.  My daughter was told in her first session that everything she said would be private and confidential, and this was not qualified.  The t then wrote a detailed description of her situation and sent it to the referring doctor.  That is not consistent with the promise we were made.  When I challenged this, I was offered a rationalisation, rather than an apology; why it is ok for doctors to write to one another, and why this is not included in the words 'totally private', when spoken to a child.

I am not a fan of t.  And I have yet to meet a t who kept his or her promises to me; promises which I did not extort, but which they offered as part of the therapy.  Freely given, and just as freely broken.  I sit there thinking that I am there to provide the t with part of the rationale for their job; I and my fellow patients contribute to their identity, their means of earning a living and their self esteem.  Who exactly, therefore, is the 'therapy' aimed at?

In return the t provides me with the occasional insight, a lot of pain, and eventual abandonment.  Not to mention transferance which they are too arrogant to recognise even when you spell it out to them.

With therapy like that, who needs N parents?

So, to finally get to the question, yes, be honest with the t.  They are supposed to be able to cope with that.  In my experience they can't, but it is worth a try.  Stay positive, because if she is one of the better ones, then she must be able to achieve something,  :? so do what you can to connect.

((((((hugs))))))

« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 08:02:32 AM by October »

bliz1

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2005, 08:17:59 AM »
I believe now I wasted a lot of years in "sliding scale" therapy to save money.  For myself, I needed a therapist that was more realistic and didnt just sit and nod. I needed a therapist that would create an action plan, not just listen to me complain for 45 minutes.  My insurance would not pay for the better therapists.  I wasnt sick enough.  They wanted to put me on meds instead, which trust me I do not need.  I found a better therapist through referrals from friends and she agreed to charge me the amount she would get after insurance.  THat helped some.  It was well worth it.

vunil

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2005, 09:55:33 AM »
Looking back, my worst therapists have been the cheapest ones, and the ones I was forced to go to through some insurance plan, especially when I was a student.  So I think the generalization is probably valid. But I have friends who have had different experiences from mine, and had good luck with these therapists. There is hope.

It's probably like a lot of things.  There are people willing to sacrifice money to do something good for the world, but not many (maybe not most) people will do that.  So, if you can go into private practice and do really well, why stay in a governmental system?  It just means it may be harder to find someone good within a system like that.

On the other hand, most really good private practice therapists started in a system of some sort.

I'm sorry people have had such bad experiences!  It's really sad to hear about.


d'smom

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2005, 04:57:17 PM »
wow what a bunch of interesting answers...... thank you.... hmmm........ first off - SF, How do you manage to pay for your own on disability?......... i get about $500 a month..... that said, it does seem that that barring getting lucky, figuring out a way to pay for my own will be the only way to truly gain control.......  i guess.  if you want control, you must pay, or get fortunate. so it seems. c'est la vie i suppose.

irishrose, you are soooo lucky!  three times a week, thats the kind of therapy people like us really need........ you cannot get anywhere with a couple of hours here and there with  problems like we have. its nuts.

i -do- feel im wasting time in a lot of ways at this point. i *do* want someone with an 'action plan', who is a little more proactive and wants to go into a little more depth. these guys are all about the band-aid. i am not at that level anymore. (guess i should be happy about that at least.......) i especially want someone that will work on MY goals. not the gov'ts goals.

october - i think you are -totally- right - the organisation perpetuates the organisation.

its the whole Elephant in the Living Room all over again. you are Not Supposed to Mention the Lack of Resources. its a Big Secret.  They are in Denial about it.   of course, thats totally triggering for people who grew up with denial and ignoring core issues ;}  also rather than admit The Big Secret that They Cant Pay for What you Need, they will unhesitatingly put the blame on you for needing it.....

it makes me really sad that things are this way. i think i am really spoiled growing up with high quality medical care. guess i have to face it. i hate lies. im sure she is frustrated about it too.  id be surprised if she admits it rather than blames it on me somehow. it means exposing The Lie. i ALWAYS get in trouble for that sh*t. !~ (even in my family all my life!!!!!)  but at least you have somewhat confirmed my feeling that all therapy isnt created equal. 

i guess i will simply tell her all of this..... and go from there. also maybe i will feel that i just have to continue to try to get more income, so that i can pay for what i need and claim more control that way. 

its always helpful to see what other people are dealign with. i really appreciate the viewpoints all. SIGH
take care - d's mom


Sallying Forth

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2005, 05:43:32 PM »
first off - SF, How do you manage to pay for your own on disability?......... i get about $500 a month..... that said, it does seem that that barring getting lucky, figuring out a way to pay for my own will be the only way to truly gain control.......  i guess.  if you want control, you must pay, or get fortunate. so it seems. c'est la vie i suppose.

I get about the same as you. I am on a really strict budget right now because my husband and I have been separated since November. So I pay all my bills and then my therapy. My therapy costs also went up by 400% last year! :shock: I had thought of going back to seeing my t more times a month but that high cost made it impossible. My t's office was funded through donations from an organization. When those donations were curtailed the funding was lost thus the higher costs for my therapy. My t has sliding scale fees too but I am at the lowest end of that and he just announced that cost was going up. :shock: I can't afford the higher cost so he's holding back the fees for me and several of his clients who are on disability. :)

Quote
it makes me really sad that things are this way. i think i am really spoiled growing up with high quality medical care. guess i have to face it. i hate lies. im sure she is frustrated about it too.  id be surprised if she admits it rather than blames it on me somehow. it means exposing The Lie. i ALWAYS get in trouble for that sh*t. !~ (even in my family all my life!!!!!)  but at least you have somewhat confirmed my feeling that all therapy isnt created equal.

I can sure relate to this. I always got sh*t for exposing the lie too.


I had to go through 5 therapists to find the one I've seen for the past 13 years. The first one was an addict, terrified of his own shadow and didn't want me exploring anything that might be "scary," more like that might trigger him. The second one was similar and thought my PTSD was too extreme for me to look any further at memories until I was "stabilized." The third was the nightmare, a destructive narcissist! She was extremely controlling. She didn't believe me and thought I was delusional. Sure wish I had been delusional. That would have been much easier than the truth. ;) The fourth, an inexperienced t who was terrified of my memories. She tried to shut me up. The fifth was an interim t and she listened to and believed me. She helped me get on disability which I had been trying to do since seeing the second t.
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wokeupatlast

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2005, 07:56:54 AM »
It's been two months since my NPD spouse told me she was divorcing me and I have been looking for a therapist without success.  The psychiatrist just wants to put me on meds, the other shrink doesn't have a clue about NPD and doesn't like "labels", several counselors that have been recommended either never call back or are totally booked, and the women who has been helping me is retired and just waiting until I can find someone else.  The therapist I went to before this happened was more of the "chatty" type that didn't really have a plan of action.  Of course my insurance is a HMO so the list of candidates is not long.  I'm thinking that I have a better chance of finding another NPD spouse than I do of finding a therapist who can help me avoid this fate.

bliz1

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2005, 08:16:25 AM »
My two cents:
If at all possible I would bite the bullet and get somebody outside of your medical plan if they are good.  Maybe you can work out a payment deal with them once you find them.  Even if you only go once a month, which I did in the beginning due to expense, it is worth it to be with someone that is knowledgable enough to help you.

October

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Re: irritated about therapy
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2005, 05:18:13 PM »
Reading my post again, it makes me sound really bitter and angry.  As if I could not benefit from therapy if I tried, because of all that negativity.   :(

I thought I ought to say that I am an optimist by nature, and that every time I think; 'this time it might be different.'

I had one t who was very good.  I only saw him 12 times in all, but he did me a lot of good, mainly by listening and reassuring at a time when I needed it.  He helped me to believe in myself, and in my own sanity.  He also trusted me with his home phone number, which I thought was very kind of him.  I used it sometimes, but not very often.

However, he also made commitments which he forgot to fulfill, which I really find bizarre in any t.  But I suppose we just have to put it down to being human.   :?