jealous of the narcissist

[amethyst]

Our culture totally reinforces narcissistic behavior. It worships beauty, youth, power, money and things. Narcissists probably fit the cultural ideal more closely than anyone else. What our society piously says it cares about (women, children, human rights) and the way it acts (war, power, mass entertainment) are two entirely different things. It's very hard not to buy into our culture on some level...hence, the envy.

I decided a long time ago that I am a cultural misfit. I am a Hopi in Kwakiutl society...lol. 

[mudpuppy]

Hi amethyst,

Not trying to start anything, but......

Our culture totally reinforces narcissistic behavior. It worships beauty, youth, power, money and things.

Is it possible this is not a cultural thing but a human nature kind of a thing?
I mean, I doubt very much that an Inuit young lady is really hoping for a wrinkled, ugly, old husband, is she?
Do the bushmen of Southern Africa really value being powerless and poor?
It seems like a lot of other cultures place a great value on owning as many things as possible, including wives.

I bet there's even a Hopi or two who's been to McDonalds and watches Desperate Housewives and waits impatiently for his Sports Illustrated swimsuit addition.

Human nature stinks for the most part, and that stench comes out in every culture.
Envy is universal and age old.
Cain wasn't a product of our culture but he sure manged to envy Abel. Talk about an N.
***************************************************
As to vunil's original question, I think jealousy is the last word that comes to my mind when thinking about Ns. They have got to be the most pathetic, lonely, scared little rabbits alive, regardless of what phony confidence and assurance they project. What's to be jealous of, their misery?

mudpup

[daylily]

Maybe it's true that N's seem to get what they want.  But isn't it equally true that they can't enjoy what they have?  Their personalities won't allow them to rest or find peace, so there's always another acquisition or manipulation on the agenda.

I'm only jealous of the feeling of entitlement that seems to accompany narcisissim.  It's much more than self-confidence.  And though I know it causes a lot of pain, I watch it in wonder.  What would it feel like, I ask myself, to move through the world like that?  I spend a lot of time balancing the equation of needs, desires, and duties.  I try awfully hard to be fair to everyone.  (I know how self-serving that sounds--all I can say is that I put a lot of effort into it.  Whether I succeed is anybody's guess.)  In the process, I often watch my own feelings and desires slipping to the bottom of the pile.  So yes, I do envy N's their sense that the world exists to meet their needs.

But I do not envy them their inevitable conclusion that the world always comes up short.  That very sense of entitlement ends up as a destructive force--turning in on itself and rendering the N unable to really love, because that would involve shifting the focus from the self.

Interesting topic.

daylily

[d'smom]

mudpuppy quoted amethyst here:
*Not trying to start anything, but......

Our culture totally reinforces narcissistic behavior. It worships beauty, youth, power, money and things.

Is it possible this is not a cultural thing but a human nature kind of a thing?
I mean, I doubt very much that an Inuit young lady is really hoping for a wrinkled, ugly, old husband, is she?
Do the bushmen of Southern Africa really value being powerless and poor?



hi mudpuppy! good to see you..... i just feel compelled to say that all cultures have different values........ sometimes similarly different and sometimes very widely different............ for instance, i had a favorite book for a long time about a young danish man who ran away early in the century to join a group of gypsies in europe. (these were his memoirs) he talks about the values of the culture and the characters he met.

now i wont romanticise gypsies cause i cant say they had the greatest values on all counts.....  but i was really struck by one old gypsy man in particular was known as 'the millioniare' ~ not becuase he *had* a million dollars but beucase he was reputed to have given a million dollars *away*, entertaining and helping others....... he was a very poor and wrinkled old gypsy who owned almost nothing, and yet he was highly esteemed in the community becuase of how much had passed through his hands, on the way to other people. that was how they valued things.

i think some values are undeniably similar across the board... but i think some are very different -  especially regarding 'wealth' and status issues, what makes people 'successful' or  'wealthy' or 'desirable'.


*Human nature stinks for the most part, and that stench comes out in every culture.
Envy is universal and age old. *


that might be true but gosh.... and this is from someone (me) who fully believed with my whole heart that people were evil for a number of years. ive just been screwed worse with each passing year but i do NOT believe this now. i believe fully that people are capable of incredibly wonderful things... i think that the world is a difficult place, and people do act very very badly for a number of reasons, mainly lack of integrity and laziness and fear and perhaps stupidity. trying to adapt and survive in a situation where there arent enough resources and room and etc just brings out the worst in us.  (like any species.) yes we have some bad tendencies and they are indulged wayyyy too often............ but - maybe its the human condition rather than human nature...... i truly think that human nature is more beautiful than not. i dont know why we act so bad all the time.



*As to vunil's original question, I think jealousy is the last word that comes to my mind when thinking about Ns. They have got to be the most pathetic, lonely, scared little rabbits alive, regardless of what phony confidence and assurance they project. What's to be jealous of, their misery? *


with that, i totally agree!!!!  as for jealousy -  im just jealous of anyone who seems to get everythign handed to them and dont seem to deserve it or didnt work for it, whether they are narcissistic or not.......... thats my personal thing with jealousy. its hard for me when people seem to get everything i work so hard for but cant get, they get that stuff easily and dont even seem to appreciate it.......  im not jealous of n people, im just jealous of anyone like that.............

[miss piggy]

Hello Marta and everyone,

M, your post really lit up a lightbulb for me. 

I am very afraid to inspire jealousy in others.  The whole passing of those feelings back and forth really unnerves me.  My Nbrother is a very jealous person.  I think one big reason why I became invisible was to reduce inspiring any of the rage that would come at me like a flamethrower if I incurred jealousy in anyone.  Some people are jealous whenever someone else is getting attention and will rage (I can think of two in my family!)  No wonder I became one with the wallpaper.

The weirdo I worked with for a time was extremely jealous of my engagement ring.  (She is married).  She would call attention to it every chance she got to try and embarrass me.  She would carry on like she was blinded by the sun.  I was so taken aback by this.  I didn't know what to say except to muster a puzzled look at her. 

Ick, a hideous thought just came to me.  I think one reason some men murder their ex-girlfriends is "if I can't have you, no one else can either."  No one can have what they don't have.  So is entitlement a way of staving off deprivation?

Mudpuppy, I wonder if American society is more narcissistic because of our myth of a "classless" society.  that is, every American has a chance to make it big.  I wonder how N plays out in more delineated cultures where, if you are born to a family of laborers, your fate is pretty much sealed to remain in the laboring class.  That is, one knows where they stand vs. a lifetime of status anxiety.

This is an interesting topic which obviously puzzles me!  MP

[vunil]

Hi, guys--

Just to clarify a little-- my post about jealousy isn't really about conscious jealousy.  Consciously, I am as well-adjusted as anyone about N's and anyone else with issues like they have.  I was talking about unconscious jealousy.  I'm not sure this would come up for you, Mudpup, because you had a good childhood (if I remember correctly) and didn't experience weird N behavior until adulthood with your brother.  In that case I don't think much unconscious is happening, not that the conscious stuff isn't irritating enough!

I was talking about folks who were abused as children.  I think abuse is a very complex issue, especially if it happens before you have a fully-formed self.  If you are the one being taunted or sexually violated or punished capriciously and continually, it is perfectly logical to wish that you were the one in charge instead.  You probably wouldn't know you were wishing this.  But I know from my reading that a lot of folks who go through what we went through develop N tendencies-- both of my parents developed that defense mechanism from their own abusive childhoods.  I think those of us on this board went the other direction and (most of us) developed other tendencies that allowed us to become fully-formed people who may have sometimes acted out in N ways (heaven knows I did this in my youth) but who mainly took on more of a victim role.  As we crawl out from under that role I think that it helps to develop an (unconscious maybe also) acceptance of the part of us that would have rather been the one in charge instead of the one being abused.  This does not mean wanting to be an abuser!  It just means acknowledging a little of that feeling lurking unconsciously.  It is not surprising the feeling is lurking in there-- after all, for most of us, the person abusing us was someone we loved deeply.

It is easy to be sanguine about this now, in conscious-land, and thank heavens we can be (it is what we have to work with).  But... all us of here have had ridiculous, horrible, really unhealthy relationships that (for most of us) we chose.  Something underlies that choice, and I was just wondering if the complex relationship of abuser to abused is part of it.  Maybe it's an unanswerable question.  I feel as if I can see, in me and others, this struggle between the conscious and the unconscious self (that feeling of WHY do I care?  Why do I miss him?).

But I love everyone's posts!  It is a very interesting discussion.  Really helpful to me.  Thanks.

[Sela]

Hi Vunil:

I'm sure you're right in that when I was being abused, I had a frequent conscious wish to be the person in charge, rather than the absued one.   This, however, imo, is not being jealous of the N but rather jealous of their position of power, in a rather self-defensive manner.

It seems healthy to resent being abused, to feel apprehensive, suspicious, even bitter toward an abuser.  It also seems healthy to be vigilant in trying to guard one's self from abuse and intolerant of such disloyalty that abusers demonstrate.  It would be disturbing to like the abuse, not wish to stop it, have no desire to remove the abuser from that position of power, wouldn't it?  All of this makes being jealous of an abuser's position of power a healthy kind of jealousy, if you ask me, and I thank you for bringing this up because I would never probably have thought of thinking of it.

As to some unconscious type of jealousy that may exist......there is no way to know...is there?  Since jealousy may be there, deep in our unconsciousness, sneaking around and making bitter plans, it could be a nasty thing eh?  That makes me wonder if it is what is responsible for some of the anger that is generated in the abused.  Maybe we are unconsciously aware of a nasty feeling deep inside that we refuse to allow to surface because of it's close resemblance to our abuser and this frustrates and angers us, without any conscious knowledge of it?  Just what we all need eh?  More crap seeping out of our already damaged heads!   

Awww well......it's all hypothesis anyhow.  Since there is no way to nail the unconscious down.  Maybe those unconscious jealous feelings are pure evil.....donated to us by our abusers, free of charge?  They can stay where they are, imo, in that case.  I have no need of them.

  Sela