Hurricane Katrina Apathy?

[vunil]

d's mom and whoever else who wants to: you can watch Daily Show videos at www.thedailyshow.com, too.  The one I was linking to is called "inarguable failure."  You can find it under "headlines."

note that this is not a post making any more arguments   I am trying to display will power...

[Sallying Forth]

Video about Miss Kitty rescued and given to her owner.

http://katrinablog.msnbc.com/

[bliz]

We have to agree to disagree.   It is okay to be passionate about what you believe in. 

Re: the "vulbnerable", yes, I think there is a small faction that would not be able to evacuate due to illness of any kind.  Usually a hurricane prone area will have a plan for these.  Of couse in a disaster of this magnitude, all bets are off. 

I still believe blame has no place at this table.  Analyzing for future use, yes.  Blame, no.  THere was a lot of blame after Andrew and obviously there are still glitches in the system.  There is always the outside chance that no matter how well you plan, a disaster of this proportion will shred the plan.

I still believe that for those still crying in front of the TV, there are other issues at play.  This is not said in a shamemaking way. Yes, it can bring up those memories of a dysfunctional childhood.  Hopefully people would realize this and continue to take the necessary steps to permanently greive these issues and move on. 

Being stuck is a common problem for the codependent and abused, in my opinion and from my personal experience.  Codependents easily identify with others facing tragedy.  This is defintely okay, but I would hope at some point the main personal issues would be addressed.  That doesnt mean you cant still cry in front of the television.  It means you know why you are feeling the depth of this, how it relates to your own personal experience and how you are integrating that into your current life and healing plan. 

[Sela]

ok - thats fine if you werent implying anything.  thats ok...

Actually, Anna, guess what?  It's not ok with me.  It seems like you're the only one allowed to have feelings.   How come?    When you were accused of over reacting and responding with an inappropriate amount of emotion, you get to say:  "No.  Don't accuse me of that!",  and thought I heard you saying that, I felt badly for you having to do all that,  and I thought I tried to communicate it, as horrible at communicating as I am. But your response was to incorrectly accuse me of implying stuff, which I denied and even appologised for it seeming that way and now, your response,  "that's fine" says to me:

"It doesn't matter that I accused you of implying stuff you weren't implying.  It doesn't matter that you appologised and stated that you weren't implying anything.  As a matter of fact, I don't even believe you weren't implying anything...I am only willing to agree....if...if...if
you weren't implying anything, that it's fine, which I doubt.  Therefore, not only do I not accept your appology, but I think you're a liar to boot.  So, let's just get on  with my opinion, shall we."

This is how your words came across to me and I feel insulted and and even now, writing this, disappointed and a real understanding of what upset Mudpuppy, not long ago, is starting to seep into my brain.  There is more in your post that I found very defining and I just want to point out that I tried to let you know that I am not trying to define you.

I may sound overly emotional or like I'm over reacting too, maybe, to some right now, but to be honest, I don't feel like that.  I just feel like saying that I have feelings too, please consider them.

Sela

[d'smom]

Actually, Anna, guess what?  It's not ok with me.  It seems like you're the only one allowed to have feelings.   How come?    When you were accused of over reacting and responding with an inappropriate amount of emotion, you get to say:  "No.  Don't accuse me of that!",  and thought I heard you saying that, I felt badly for you having to do all that,  and I thought I tried to communicate it, as horrible at communicating as I am. But your response was to incorrectly accuse me of implying stuff, which I denied and even appologised for it seeming that way and now, your response,  "that's fine" says to me:

"It doesn't matter that I accused you of implying stuff you weren't implying.  It doesn't matter that you appologised and stated that you weren't implying anything.  As a matter of fact, I don't even believe you weren't implying anything...I am only willing to agree....if...if...if
you weren't implying anything, that it's fine, which I doubt.  Therefore, not only do I not accept your appology, but I think you're a liar to boot.  So, let's just get on  with my opinion, shall we."

This is how your words came across to me and I feel insulted and and even now, writing this, disappointed and a real understanding of what upset Mudpuppy, not long ago, is starting to seep into my brain.  There is more in your post that I found very defining and I just want to point out that I tried to let you know that I am not trying to define you.

I may sound overly emotional or like I'm over reacting too, maybe, to some right now, but to be honest, I don't feel like that.  I just feel like saying that I have feelings too, please consider them.



sela........  that wasnt what i was trying to say at all..... how did it come across i dont think other people can have feelings? i totally said, we might have to agree to disagree.........that i respect peoples right to think/feel  what they want..

my point about your sentence that seemed to define acts of blame a defense mechanism.......  maybe you werent thinking that at all, when you wrote it......... i could totally be wrong.....  but it seemed as though, even though you were saying you didnt think blaming was a coping mechanism, but then in that sentence, you kind of maybe subconsciously went ahead and called blaming a coping mechanism anyway.   so i pointed that out.  maybe i misunderstood it.

i pointed it out becuase, not everybody defines acts of blame as a coping mechanism, and that was part of the disagreement.  as long as people are defining things and the other people dont agree with the definition there wont be any middle ground.

but i was =not= trying to not accept any apology or deny anyone the right to feel feelings.??   its obvious there are very deep divisions as to how this is looked at and interpreted and they wont be changed by talking about it becuase it just has to do with peoples world view.

im really confused by how what i said to you was interpreted but, im glad you told me.   your feelings are totally important to me.  i havent even been on my computer since yesterday or so anyway, but i wasnt plannign to talk about it anymore anyway, becuase i was thinking it isnt worth arguing over..... its obvious we are defining things differently but on the big issues we probably agree so, i could just as easily feel insulted by half the things that bliz has said, which i have, but im not going to fight about it with her, becuase it isnt worth it, beucase it willl not go anywhere or change anything and it will just be negative.

i have felt condescended to by almost everythign that bliz has written recently. but, im not arguing with her about it. im not trying to fight or deny her her right to feel what she wants. becuase, its obvious its how she really really deeply feels and its not going to change.  and i dont want her to change.  im trying to respect her right to her own opinion even though its =totally= different from mine. this just isnt the place to be talking about it i guess becuase we arent going to see it the same way.

so i for sure wouldnt do that to you.  i didnt think the things you said were insulting, i just thought they were open to discussion which i was trying to do.  and i hate double standards. you know that. i dont want people to have to consider anything about me that i wouldnt consider about them.  i just think this topic is too heated to be productively talked about i guess. 

i dont really know what else to say.  im sorry if i said anything that upset you. that wasnt my intent. im pretty puzzled by your reaction but maybe you were saying something that i just missed. its easy to do on the internet. for whatever reason this topic is just not easy to talk about, and people are geting insulted very easy, so maybe it just isnt a good topic.

[Sallying Forth]

Breaking out of my self imposed shell and having a voice  ...

I still believe that for those still crying in front of the TV, there are other issues at play.  This is not said in a shamemaking way. Yes, it can bring up those memories of a dysfunctional childhood.  Hopefully people would realize this and continue to take the necessary steps to permanently greive these issues and move on.

You intended these statements as NOT shamemaking but they are!

I believe that God can use anything He chooses to bring forth healing. And I believe He is using this in my life to do that, to touch the depth of pain I have. 

Hopefully people would realize this ...    Duh! What board are you on???

Being stuck is a common problem for the codependent and abused, in my opinion and from my personal experience.

Yep, your opinion and experience. Definitely not mine!

Codependents easily identify with others facing tragedy.

So can intuitives, INFPs and many others and that doesn't make them codependent. Rather it allows them to be compassionate.

This is defintely okay, but I would hope at some point the main personal issues would be addressed.

Phew! I'm sure glad you have given your stamp of approval. 

Frankly it is none of your business whether or not I or anyone else addresses their personal issues. So you can hope all you want.

The point of this board is to express our feelings and thoughts about our voicelessness and heal in our time and in our way.

That doesnt mean you cant still cry in front of the television.  It means you know why you are feeling the depth of this, how it relates to your own personal experience and how you are integrating that into your current life and healing plan. 

One word: condescending.  And that about sums up what I think about your entire post, condescending. 

[vunil]

Ok, I am not one to keep promises (e.g., not posting any more on this) I guess.  Blame it on the late night pregnancy insomnia--

But I just want to say that I don't know anyone who isn't crying (or at least crying inside) in front of the tv over this.  I feel very connected to the country and to the world actually knowing the amount of compassion that has been outpoured over this tragedy, and that was outpoured (is that a word?) over september 11, which I will never get over completely and will remember every year at this time.

The Dalai Lama said something like this yesterday:  that the thing to learn from this tragedy is compassion, and that we are all of us connected.

we can agree on that, yes?

[October]

The Dalai Lama said something like this yesterday:  that the thing to learn from this tragedy is compassion, and that we are all of us connected.

we can agree on that, yes?

Yes.  Agreed.

My prayers are with the whole of the US at this time, and with its friends and families.  We are all bereaved, and we are all grieving with you.

[bliz]

Sally Forth,
I am sorry you thought my comments were condescending.  Of course you are entitled to all your thoughts and emotions, as I am entitled to mine.  That is another tenant of regaining our voice.  I erroneously thought that part of being here was to share our experience and what worked and didnt work.  That was one of the points of my post. 

I was stuck for many years, running around emoting over every tragedy that happened to someone else, not realizing I was also greiving my own tragedies by proxy.  Once I was able to discern between the two and recognize when my emotions were a little over top for the situation, I was able to fully feel and identify the tragedies that have happened to me.  I was able to greive the injustices that had occured to me and release that energy. 

Releasing that energy made me much more able to enjoy the living of life in the here and now.  Also I was not continually greiving my injustices with each new tragedy, but was able to finally fully grieve them and let go.  It changed my life.  I was attempting to share that with the group.  Conversely, I feel I am being blamed and attempts are made to silence me, because I do not feel the same way as some here or agree with them. 

[Sela]

i didnt like the feeling people were ascribing motives to others, or putting words in their mouth re: their individual reaction.  it -felt- condescending and dismissive.

You said that, awhile back, and then went on to say that I was implying stuff and that "it" was "ok"....only "if" I wasn't implying stuff and now I hear my individual reaction being defined as codependant.  Yes, I see a double standard.

but i was =not= trying to not accept any apology or deny anyone the right to feel feelings.??

Sorry, this sounds like double speak to me.  Am I supposed to feel better now?

Do you mean you did accept my appology and you are sorry you hurt my feelings by not saying so?

its obvious there are very deep divisions as to how this is looked at and interpreted and they wont be changed by talking about it becuase it just has to do with peoples world view.

IMO, the only way to change it is by talking about it but in that talking, to be sure we are talking about ....it......and not subtley insulting or defining eachother, as we go along.

im glad you told me.   your feelings are totally important to me.

I appreciate this and so are yours, Anna.  That's why I bothered to speak on this thread in the first place and why I am bothering to continue to try to communicate with you specifically.

its obvious we are defining things differently but on the big issues we probably agree...

Defining issues differently is one thing but defining people is something else.  I didn't like you being defined as over emotional or that your blaming was some weird thingy that only over emotional people do.  But you turn around and define me as codependant and say I'm implying stuff.  What stuff??  I've already said I feel insulted about that and disappointed.  I clearly stated my feelings.

Big triangle happening here.

What position am I in again?  Perp?  Resuer?  (surely not now).  Victim?

i have felt condescended to by almost everythign that bliz has written recently...

So rather than tell her that you do the same thing to me??  Hey.....we've all done it.

im sorry if i said anything that upset you. that wasnt my intent.

I made it clear that it upset me.  There is no if.  I believe that you didn't intend that.

....people are geting insulted very easy, ....

Here we go again.  This is a derogatory statement about people in general which is not fair.  When you feel that what people are saying is:  "condescending and dismissive", that's ok but if, by chance, other people feel that way about what you are saying then they are just:  "getting insulted very easy".

Yep, double standard for sure.

I don't buy it.  I don't think I get insulted "very easy".  I'm glad you haven't reacted with anger to my expressing my feelings.  I'm glad you are trying to understand and I hear you trying to avoid further upset.

You said you are confused and puzzled by my reaction.  I'm trying to help diffuse that fog.  I do not mean, in turn, to hurt your feelings.  I mean to make it clear what you said that hurt mine and I accept and believe that you did not mean to do that.

Sela

[Sallying Forth]

Sally Forth,
I am sorry you thought my comments were condescending.  Of course you are entitled to all your thoughts and emotions, as I am entitled to mine.  That is another tenant of regaining our voice.  I erroneously thought that part of being here was to share our experience and what worked and didnt work.  That was one of the points of my post.

Sharing your experience is one thing. However putting others down for theirs and acting superior is another.

I was stuck for many years, running around emoting over every tragedy that happened to someone else, not realizing I was also greiving my own tragedies by proxy.  Once I was able to discern between the two and recognize when my emotions were a little over top for the situation, I was able to fully feel and identify the tragedies that have happened to me.  I was able to greive the injustices that had occured to me and release that energy.

Now this is not condescending. You ARE sharing YOUR experience and what worked for YOU.

I have never experienced something like that. I went around numb and lived in a fog for years.

Releasing that energy made me much more able to enjoy the living of life in the here and now.  Also I was not continually greiving my injustices with each new tragedy, but was able to finally fully grieve them and let go.  It changed my life.  I was attempting to share that with the group.  Conversely, I feel I am being blamed and attempts are made to silence me, because I do not feel the same way as some here or agree with them. 

What you were attempting to share with the group is NOT what you shared.

This sounds like a teacher talking to students not someone sharing from their personal experience:
I still believe that for those still crying in front of the TV, there are other issues at play.  This is not said in a shamemaking way. Yes, it can bring up those memories of a dysfunctional childhood.  Hopefully people would realize this and continue to take the necessary steps to permanently greive these issues and move on. 

Being stuck is a common problem for the codependent and abused, in my opinion and from my personal experience.  Codependents easily identify with others facing tragedy.  This is defintely okay, but I would hope at some point the main personal issues would be addressed.  That doesnt mean you cant still cry in front of the television.  It means you know why you are feeling the depth of this, how it relates to your own personal experience and how you are integrating that into your current life and healing plan.

I don't believe anyone is trying to silence you because you don't agree with them or feel the same way. Rather it is how you communicate.

This board is about sharing OUR experiences. We all share common ground however we are individuals on our own journeys to wholeness. Therefore your journey will most likely look different than mine. It doesn't mean yours is better or worse than mine. What works for you may or may not work for me and vice versa. And we can all learn from each other through sharing our journeys.

[bliz]

Sally, I give up.  I guess you are the ultimate judge of what people really mean or are trying to say. You dont like my opinions and experiences or my communication style.

But it is okay for you to interpret my words and intent incorrectly and assign, (here comes that word again), blame, where none was intended.  Not much growth occurs in this environment.     

[Marta]

I see nothing wrong or hurtful in your communication style. You have communicated from the very first post that you had lived through a hurricane yourself, and you had been a codependent as well – so the point you are trying to make in linking the two sprang from your personal experience. I did read in your post from the very beginning that your opinion came out of your own experiences, that is why it had credence for me.
 
Sometimes people use loaded terms, like “we” or “board” in their posts while expressing their personal opinions. It does not mean they speak for everyone. I see the point you were trying to make re. reaction to Katrina; it had not been obvious to me at first. Now I have reached conclusion that it is a valid point of view. It does not mean that every feeling expressed or every tear shed over the victims is an expression of some kind of a personal grieving, far from that,  nor do I think that you intended to mean that. 

BTW, my politics is not at the same spectrum as yours. I believe that hurricane victims bear 0% responsibility for not having evacuated or anything else they had to go through. I would be shell shocked in their situation, too crippled to make any decision at all.

[Sallying Forth]

Sally, I give up.  I guess you are the ultimate judge of what people really mean or are trying to say. You dont like my opinions and experiences or my communication style.

But it is okay for you to interpret my words and intent incorrectly and assign, (here comes that word again), blame, where none was intended.  Not much growth occurs in this environment.     

I never said I was the ultimate judge of what people really mean or are trying to say.

I never said I don't like your opinions and experiences.

I did say your communication style was condescending.

[bliz]

Marta,
Thanks for expressing that you got the point I was trying to make.  I appreciate that.

Sally,
In many ways it appears all about implication.  You think/feel I am being condescending, although I have apologized and repeatedly said that was not my intent.  IMO, you have been judgemental about both my opinions and my attempts to pass on what I have learned along the way.  It would not stop me from sharing, as I feel that would be again to lose my voice.

You dont have to agree or even like what I say, which is your choice.  Maybe it is a form of black/white thinking.  I have found that to be another tenant of my codependant journey.  I had to fight the propensity to decide which category events, people, attitudes, opinion are put iin, good or bad, and stick to that.  I have found there are a lot of grey areas in life and this may be one of them.  We cant control everything or everyone and it is somewhat freeing to realize this.