Are my parents toxic ?

[David P]

I am 28 years old, male and troubled by not doing very well socially and with others. I have a difficult relationship with my parents in many ways and recently saw a counselor who said that my parents are 'toxic'. My father is an Army Captain and my mother is the 'perfect' wife. I gather that toxic is NOT good. I will outline some of the things that they did when I was a child and maybe you would be good enought to comment, I am the eldest of three children. ----

 1. My school grades were never good enough -"Your best just isn't good enough -you can do better."

 2. If the neighbors ever complained about me , they would always side with the neighbor without listening to my side -" You must have done something to upset the neighbor"

 3.My father would just shake me awake early each morning withiut saying a word.

 4. Whenever our family went to an Army social function we were 'inspected' by him to make sure that we did not have a hair out of place.

 5.Even though we had sufficient money for food, he rationed the food that we ate , We were expected to have the table manners of adults and we were sneered at if we put a finger wrong.

 6. If I did anything to upset him ,he would grab me by the arm and push me in the front of the Chevrolet and say" I am going to take you to jail now unless you apologise and you say that you will never do that again".

7.We had an old outside toilet and when I was about 13, I used to retreat in there with a book for some solitude.Several times he barged in and pulled my onto me feet and grabbed my shirt upwards to look at my penis just in case I was masturbating.

8. My parents generally had the idea that they were perfect and if anything was amiss then it was my fault. They sneered and belittled me daily and tried to control even part of my life .

9.My father was horrified that one of my English teachers said that students "need to think for ourselves". My father saw that as subversive and an invitation to defy authority .

There are lots of examples in the same vein ..
Are my parent toxic or even narcissistic or what .

David.

[vunil]

I think that "toxic" is a sort of catch-all word for bad parenting-- it is Susan Forward's word, I believe.  I have heard her book is very good, although I'll confess not to have read it.  It is a bit of a general word, helpful as far as it goes and you certainly are getting a hint from your therapist that not all was great at home.  Reading over your list I guess you realize that now, too!

Your dad may not be narcissistic-- he may have some other sort of control issues.  But why don't you read some of the posts here, continue to post yourself, and see if you can gain something from the discussion here?  We know that your dad had some major issues-- with sex, certainly, and cleanliness it seems, and just in general with controlling everything.  Trying to control you in this way is pretty narcissistic, and he might have obsessive tendencies, too.  A book I liked a lot is "the narcissistic family."  I think you might get something out of it too-- I think it will ring a bell with you.  Basically, a narcissistic family subverts the needs of the child to the needs of the parent.  Sounds like a lot of what is on your list. 

At the very least, that was an abusive childhood and you probably have a lot of residual fears from being treated that way.  It seems you never could relax, just be a kid, explore what it was to be "you" apart from them. I mean, young boys need a place to be alone to do whatever they want, including exploring sexuality.  It's normal.  Constantly being monitored and measured has to have taken its toll on you.  It's not suprising that you doubt yourself now.  I'm guessing you are fine socially and doing really well and the issue isn't your actual behavior but the voices in your head about that behavior.  You inherited those voices from guess who.

Welcome to the board!  You'll learn a lot here;  this is a compassionate and wise bunch.  I am fairly new and really learning a lot from these folks.

[Marta]

David,

Yes, I think your father was definitely abusive, no doubts about it. Often the messages are so covert, that we can't verbalize them even to ourselves for a long, long time. There is a wide range of disorders, including N, which lead to abusive behavior. I am glad that you are in therapy.

Take care, Marta
PS: Does your father resemble by any chance the army father from American Beauty?

[ResilientLady]

David,
The following sentence was enough for me to say that IMO your father is abusive (he does not respect your boundaries) :

he barged in and pulled my onto me feet and grabbed my shirt upwards to look at my penis just in case I was masturbating.

I am profoundly shocked. Your father did not respect your boundaries.
You may also check out on the site "Dr Irene" (you may type it in Google) where they have good articles about the dynamics of abuse.
They also have a great list about books about all sorts of abuse. (this is where I started from before getting to know Narcissism).
Keep posting here, and keep reading about abuse.
-RL
 

[spyralle]

David,

I know how you feel when you are trying to get your head round whether it was abuse or not.  After all if a child grows up in a controlling abusive environment, how would they know, and how could they possibly admit to themselves that the people who are supposed to love and nurture them are abusive.  It is pretty clear to look objectively and see that they were. Your childhood sounds frightening, I think that it is obscene that a young child is not encouraged to think for himself and is allowed no personal space at all...  My heart goes out to you.  I'm very glad that you are in counselling.  Keep posting here, you will learn that you are sooooo not alone...

Spyralle x

[daylily]

Hi David,

Your father certainly had/has some problems, both with himself and being a parent.  I'm sorry for what you must have been through.  I think I know how a lot of that feels.

I'll tell you what works for me:  It doesn't matter what the label is, as most labels are subjective, anyway.   What matters is the perspective you can bring to what you saw, and were subjected to, as a child. Perhaps your therapist was more about trying to get you to see that things shouldn't have been this way, and it's not your fault that they were, than he or she was about categorizing your father's behavior.  In my own therapy, it's been a huge and long-term issue that much of what I saw as "wrong with me" wasn't in any way wrong with me.  I developed certain responses to the environment I grew up in.  Those responses were natural and logical consequences of the expectations put on me.  It wasn't hard to figure out how I "got" the way I am.  What has been extremely hard is accepting that the environment itself was far from healthy, so the responses weren't too healthy, either.

Speaking from experience, I would say that perspective is hard to maintain.  On the one hand, we hate people who hurt us.  On the other, the parent-child relationship is very deeply programmed into us.  It's a hard bond to break, and personally I think it should be broken only as a means of survival.  I think that a lot of the people here would disagree with me on that one.

I can't answer the question, "Are my parents toxic?"  I can say they seem unhappy, and your father seems pretty disturbed about some things.  I can't imagine they created a good environment for children.  But you're here now, and you're working on it, and I think a certain amount of forgiveness and generosity of spirit are absolutely essential to exorcising the demons of childhood.  Most parents do the best they know how to do.  As adults, we can look back and wonder why they didn't try to do better, we can learn to comfort the wounded children we were--and in many ways still are--but that doesn't destroy or negate the imperfect love your parents probably felt, and feel, for you.  Could it have been better?  Absolutely.  Could it have been worse?  Probably.  I would say that for me, therapy is largely about keeping that in mind while learning to be kind to myself and--most important--learning to evaluate myself according to what is important to me, not what was important to them, long ago.  It's harder than you might think to tell the difference.

Keep posting, and keep working with your therapist.

Best,
daylily

[Plucky]

Hello David P,
welcome to the board.  It's a good thing that you came up here to seek understanding and wisdom.  There is a lot to be had here.

Your childhood sounds like a nightmare.   I agree with what everyone else said, and would like to add that although all the things on your list were perpetrated by your father, you probably have some feelings about your mother's role as well.  I have read the gamut from people feeling the silent parent was another victim, to being angry because that parent did not protect the children from the abusive behavior of the active parent.   

Why do you say you are not doing well socially?  Only if you feel like answering.

Is it great that you are in therapy and good luck on your journey to health.
Plucky

[miss piggy]

Welcome David,

I was doing OK with your list until I read the bathroom item.  Yikes!  I can't even tell myself it's a guy thing...

I still struggle with whether or not my parents were abusive.  I agree with what another poster said above to the effect that escavating your past will help you discover where you picked up some baggage that you are still carrying.  Therapy helps everyone, whether they were "abused" or not.  It helps to develop insight into your true self. 

However, miltary parents or at least the culture itself is by its nature controlling.  I highly recommend Military Brats which is basically a sociology of military families.  My family moved a lot so I could relate to many of the stories there.  You'll find lots of new "friends" in that book.  Also go to a website called Controlling Parents  www.controllingparents.com  I'd say perhaps your dad was extremely authoritarian and rigid.  And I'll bet you've already read or seen The Great Santini by Pat Conroy.  The Robert Duvall character is based on Conroy's dad.   

Something else that helped me was a community leader who held a meeting for parents.  She said "we all yell at our kids once in a while, but our relationship is like a bank.  How much love do you deposit in the bank?  When you yell or lose your patience, it's a withdrawal of love out of the relationship.  But hopefully you are all giving sincere compliiments and praise and hugs more times than you lose your patience."  So maybe you want to review your parents' balance sheet here.

Please feel free to stick around.  MP  (that's Miss Piggy, not Military Police!   )

[David P]

Thanks to all who have replied so far.I am struggling with much of this and reading your posts is slowly enlightening me.
My social problems are somewhat symptoms of a bigger picture - I just do not feel like an adult.
I feel as if life and the wolrd around me 'gives' me what it decides to and I almost have to settle for that. My own efforts rarely come to anything. I use too much alcohol and some prescription drugs.
Life feels hard and frustrating. My therapist says that the world generally has taken the place of my controlling parents and I am re-creating my home life . Huh! I want nothing to do with my home life and 'creating' more of what I received as a child is the last thing that I would do.
My T wants me to do a 'confrontation' . What do yoall think ?
Thanks again --David P.

[vunil]

What exactly is a "confrontation?"  With your own fears/past or literally with your parents? 

If the latter, then that's a little worrisome/pushy of the therapist, especially so soon.  I would have a really honest conversation with her about why she is pushing this and what exactly should be gained from it.  Most of us here have tried some version of that and it usually does not "work" in the sense of opening up communication, changing behavior, making everyone feel better, etc.  It may be useful to see that it does not work, if that makes sense, to get it out of your system if you need to and/or to prove to yourself you are not afraid to do it.  Or it might be genuinely helpful for the relationship-- but how many people respond well to being confronted?  Hardly anyone.  And your Dad is not first on my list for a candidate for exceptions.

I would have a really honest talk with your T about this.  If the answers make you uncomfortable, I might find someone else.  Therapy is wonderful but unfortunately like everything it attracts both talented and less talented folks.

As for the weird irony of looking for exactly what you do not like in your past-- oddly enough, it's what many (maybe most!) people do.  There are a lot of reasons for that-- to resolve the past (unconsciously), because it feels comfortable to deal with what we are used to, because we secretly are not sure we deserve better, and because we don't have the mechanisms to do anything else.  And there may be 10 other reasons, too.  I am really glad you are in therapy and thinking about this stuff (and feeling your way through it).

[miss piggy]

Hello again David,

I would second Vunil's opinion about the confrontation thing...my family was once ripped apart by a person with BPD.  One member of the family was advocating an "intervention".  I thought this was the most ludicrous idea.  Hey everybody, let's gang up on this mentally ill person.  She would sooner kill herself than get help and it certainly would NOT have been handled well.  And I stated most emphatically to the idiot who proposed it, what is your objective?  I knew it was simply retaliation, not healing.  I am always in favor of the least harmful way to communicate.  Confrontation doesn't sound like that would be the solution.  Hard to say, though.  How long have you been in therapy?

I would go easy on yourself and not expect too much too fast.  Do what is achievable.  Note your progress.  Reward your progress.  I, too, expect the world to treat me the way I was treated in my family--"I don't belong".  So I am working on changing my expectations and the talk in my head. 

[daylily]

I feel as if life and the wolrd around me 'gives' me what it decides to and I almost have to settle for that. My own efforts rarely come to anything. I use too much alcohol and some prescription drugs.

But you don't have to settle for that.  Isn't that why you're in therapy--because part of you knows you don't have to settle, and you want to nourish that part and learn to deal with the other?

Children of very controlling parents often feel paralyzed when they face adulthood.  You learned how to negotiate life by doing what was expected of you, so it is natural to look for expectations (and even to create them, to put things in terms of "have to" rather than "want to").  I would bet that in your past, volition was discouraged.  You weren't encouraged to want or choose anything, but to go along with the program.  If so, as an adult you're going to view the world as a program that you have to go along with.

But part of you knows that's wrong and knows that's painful, so you're trying to either kill the pain or artificially inflate your feelings of confidence and competence.  Or so I would guess.

Life feels hard and frustrating. My therapist says that the world generally has taken the place of my controlling parents and I am re-creating my home life . Huh! I want nothing to do with my home life and 'creating' more of what I received as a child is the last thing that I would do.
My T wants me to do a 'confrontation' . What do yoall think ?

I'm pretty sure your therapist is right, because this dynamic has been very much at play in my own life--but I don't know what a 'confrontation' is.  I tend to think it's unlikely that one event could change very much.  It might be cathartic, and it might bring you some much-needed release, but will it really change the way you engage life?

What is a 'confrontation'?  Do you feel that it would be good for you?  Please keep talking if you want to.  The folks here are very willing to listen and to help, and to let you know that you are not alone in this.

Best,
daylily

[spyralle]

David,

When your therapist tells you that you are recreating your homelife i shouldn't think that she is suggesting that you are doing this consciously.  Often in our lives we will recreate what we know, because what we know is familiar to us.......as horrible a place as it may be..  The place we are in is usually due to "our own efforts and often unconscious ones....

I love the fact that you have used the words "almost have to settle".  That implies that somewhere inside you their is a part of you that is kicking against the situation that you are in.  How much alcohol and what drugs are you using.  It's interesting that you use the word using and not drinking or taking.  sounds like they are clearly serving some purpose for you.

Just from my own experience it is THE most difficult thing I have ever done to challenge my thinking and the patterns of behaviour I am constantly creating,  but even just the fact that I am trying feels so good to me....  I also know from my own experience that he you have never been allowed to think for yourself and become an adult, how can you possibly just become one.  For me becoming an adult is about doing exactly what you are doing, working with a therapist and posting in places like this, where you will find a massive amount of support..

Spyralle x

[David P]

Hi all again, My therapist is willing to coach me into having a confrontation. She is using the model from a book called 'Toxic Parents'  The objective to for me to compose a detailed list of the damage and behavior that has harmed me and 'hand it back 'to them. She points out that Toxic people are rarely willing to see their sins,and for me not to expect that they will try to assist the process. She expects them to be hostile and, if I can handle that, to just tell them how they harmed my spirit. If by some miracle, they do wish to make amends then that wiil be a bonus.
I am willing to try this -she says that it will change my relationship with them permanently and I guess that I have nothing to lose on that score because the way it is is really bad. Maybe this wiil separate us for ever -so what am I losing if that happens..
I have discussed the Narcissitic characteristics of my parents behavior with her. She agrees that they do show N tendencies( they pursued their own needs and recruited their children to play a part in helping them make their dreams come true. They did this by demanding obedience and compliance and regarding us a supporting players in their mental movie in which they were the stars)
I want yoall to offer some more comments here. Am I missing something that I should know about before I do this meeting ??
Thanks-  David

[Chicken]

Hi David,

Welcome to the board.  I am relatively new here too, compared to some people. 

I have been reading your thread and I am glad that you are choosing to confront yourself on your issues and problems, however, in my honest opinion, I don't think you will achieve much by confronting your parents, unless of course they have changed over the years?  Are they still controlling?  Are they approachable about such matters do you think? 

I know I could probably "confront" my mother gently today for the horrible things she did to me as a child, and she would probably apologise and give me her side of things, (She was under stress etc etc) but I don't find the need.  You know your parents yourself, and you know how a confrontation will be received...  How do you think it will be received?

Also, What do you hope to achieve in confronting them?  I think this is a dangerous interaction to be getting tangled up in.  There is so much strength to be gained by walking away from a situation, and accepting it for what it is.  Sometimes you just have to accept that you can't change people, or make them hear you, or see you or whatever.  I think it's better to go and find new people who will meet your needs, rather than having history repeat itself.

Do you still wilt in the company of your parents?  Do they still bring out the child in you?  I can't help but think that it's far too soon to confront your parents!!  I would have thought the counsellor would have dealt with you and your issues before going to the battlefield with your parents.  Do you feel like you are strong enough for this? 

keep posting & Good Luck!