I don't like my attorney

[dogbit]

This is difficult to write.  I retained my attorney because she has a very good reputation, could deal with the financial stuff since there are significant assets, focuses on family law, and is fair and well-respected among her peers.  Divorce is now almost 2 years (and still going on because Mr. Entitlement does not agree to anything, fails to produce paper documentation, and is now appealing the judge's decree ).  From the first, I felt intimidated by my attorney but chalked that up to feeling intimidated by absolutely anyone at that point although it is getting better!  She is very professional...no warm fuzzies!  So I told myself that that is her job...warm fuzzies come from my dogs and my therapist    The best example was a recent one in which she told me that I could not get anything out of my original home unless I had stated it in writing earlier.  Since I left the house with only the clothes on my back and was too afraid to go back in, there are a lot of personal things, ie., my mothers diaries and personal affects as well as my Dad's and Brother's.  She said I should have asked for them earlier.  So I go down the garden path of how stupid I am and I should have known and then I get angry believing she should have told me...But the bottom line is that everytime I talk to her, I shake a little inside.  I think she's see's me as stupid and at fault for the divorce happening etc. etc.  Then I think, I see her treating me as my husband treated me for many years so it is really my problem and not hers.  She really does have a great reputation.  Everyone I have asked about her says she is great and fights like a bull dog for her clients.  I think one thing that is fueling me being up at 3:30 in the morning typing this  is that we have to get the Sheriff AGAIN to get into the house to get my daughter's medical records.  Attorney has not been able to get me back in the house because Mr. Entitlement has changed the locks...what a moron...sorry had to say that.  Maybe part of it is that when I left, my husband told the court that I abused alcohol, prescription medicines, needed to see a psychiatrist regularly, throws things at him, act increasing irrational, and had anger issues    .  This was quite transparent to me.  He was describing himself!  But I wonder if she believes him which causes me to think she sees me as he describes....I'm not seeking legal advice here...Just, could someone point out to me what the hell I am doing to myself to cause such panic that I don't feel I am communicating with her as well as I could.  I did talk to my therapist months ago about this problem and she pointed out that my original family used the method of telling me I was lying when I wasn't to protect themselves...they did this enough that I truly doubted my sanity.  For example, my mother bought something at a local store, charged it and never paid for it.  When the store called the house, my mother told my dad I had purchased it and I was made to apologize to the store owner.  To this day, almost 50 years later, I still wonder if I really did do it although I know I didn't.  Crazy-making started early!  That incident made me compulsively honest to the point I still think I have to prove the correctness  of everything I do...this is getting long...but one more thought:  Since Mr. E told the court what a bad person I am,   I feel I have no way to defend myself even though my kids and friends know that he lied to protect his image.  But maybe they believe it and are just being nice to me    Thanks folks....

[vunil]

I've never had an attorney, but my late-night first-impression is that you should feel like she is 100% on your side.  It should feel like you are going into battle with your troops, and she is one of your soldiers.  You should be able to tell her that you didn't put in writing that you want your mothers diaries before scurrying away from your husband as fast as you could because.... give me a frigging break, no one would stop in that situation and put things in writing.  It's a laughable suggestion.

Maybe she doesn't have to seem like a friend or even warm and fuzzy.  But she needs to feel like a bulldog that will bite him, not you.

I also don't like that she gave you a little psychoanalytic speech when you tried to communicate with her.  She isn't your therapist.  I didn't like the thrust of the speech, sort of implying you have problems with what she does because you are broken in some way.

Just my 2 cents!  I think you genuinely don't like her but you are not sure you're allowed your opinion.  I hereby decree you are definitely allowed your opinion   You are the one paying her, after all.

[dogbit]

I also don't like that she gave you a little psychoanalytic speech when you tried to communicate with her.  She isn't your therapist.  I didn't like the thrust of the speech, sort of implying you have problems with what she does because you are broken in some way.


Hi Vunil,  I guess I wasn't clear.  She never gave me a psychoanlytical speech....I just feel like she perceives me as deficient or broken or whatever.  I can't shake the feeling.  Which causes me to wonder if maybe I am transferring the feeling I have about my husband over to her because she, by virtue of the role she is playing in my life right now,  is controlling me.  Isn't there some concept that lawyers need to control their clients?  I don't feel that way with my GP (General Practicioner) who has probably heard more about this divorce than she ever wanted to know mainly because my blood pressure is way high!  .  (I found out that stress causes this!!!)  I guess another example of what has happened is this:  Last Christmas, I ran into Mr. E and asked him if I could come over and get some pots and pans out of the kitchen.  He said, sure, why not.  I went over the next day and he threw me out the door where I landed in the driveway.  I called her immediately (I wasn't hurt, just scared to death).  I called her because the general wisdom is that you report everything to the police and I didn't want to do that until I had talked to her.  Her words were:  "I never advised you to do that and your husband had contacted his lawyer to figure out a day for you to make this transfer so you should have waited".  Well, how was I to know???   Again, I felt stupid.  But a little angry just the same because I felt I had been set up by my husband and, in this specific circumstance, not very well supported by my attorney. 

Reading back through what I have written, I keep seeing that "I feel stupid".  Maybe there is no way of having a reasonable divorce with a very controlling person.


Another possibility is that she is an N herself and making you go through sadistic hoops, but when it comes to fighting for your rights, she might get you your personal stuff and whatever else (for her own personal vanity of course).

One advice would be to make a list of specific questions, and get a legal consultation with someone else for second opinion. It would cost something like $250 or so, but it would be really worth it. If they give you a conflicting opinion, then it may be time to fire her.

Marta,

Yes, the possibility of her being somewhat narcissistic has occurred to me but if it works for me and my daughters' future best interests, it is worth it.  I am not married to her  so I could/can deal with it.  .  And, I know that getting a second opinion is difficult since attorneys don't like to second guess other attorneys and maybe, rightly so.  What you said about your your prior legal experience, I now wonder if I should have gone the other route.  Maybe I would have gotten less in terms of assets but held on to a year or so of more quality living!  I don't think there is an answer to this.  I just wish I could be more pro-active for myself and my kids and less reactive.

[Brigid]

dogbit,
Are you in a marital property state?  If so, everything the two of you have is divided equally--no matter who left or what was in writing.  If not, I still think that anything that you brought into the marriage is rightfully yours to take away.  I've been through 2 divorces in 2 different states, but the recent one is really the only one that would apply to anything you're talking about and we are a marital property state.

I don't know what to say about your attorney.  I hired the one who was most highly recommended and considered one of the best in town (he certainly charges as though he is).  He was never warm and fuzzy, but in his defense, he was charging me for every moment we talked, so he tried to keep the expenses down somewhat.  I do think it can help to have a male attorney when dealing with a controlling male spouse--a little more intimidating.  All that being said, at the end of the day I had to make sure all my bases were covered before I signed the agreement.  Even though I hired one of the best and he hired a very good accountant on my behalf to go through business documents, etc., I was the one who found discrepancies and errors on documentation that I brought to their attention.  All divorce attorneys are dealing with large caseloads (if they're any good) at any given time, so they can only devote so much to your case and they do miss things and make mistakes.  I found other women who had previously been through the process to give me advice along the way and to go through my divorce decree before I signed.  This helped immensely in pointing out things I was not aware of and my attorney had missed or neglected to mention.

I honestly thought at one time about starting a networking group for women having to go through the divorce process, to help with the legal, financial and emotional ramifications.  Maybe I still will now that I have my own feet more firmly planted on the ground.  There is just so much you must be aware of early on and early on you are not psychologically capable of dealing with all those things.  By the grace of God, and a lot of support and guidance of my therapist, I got through it all in one piece (well I'm sure there are still a few missing) and can go on with my life.  Many women are not so lucky and end up being totally devastated emotionally in the beginning and financially down the road.

Do you know anyone who has more legal expertise or previous divorce experience who could perhaps join you in a consultation with your attorney and help with asking questions?  Obviously someone who can also come off as strong and capable to your attorney.  I find the whole issue of your personal items to be utterly ridiculous and absurd.  I think if push came to shove, I would hire a couple of really big guys to accompany to my house and just take my stuff away.  Even though he changed the locks, are there any windows you could go through?  Since things being unfair is my greatest hotbutton, and your situation would certainly qualify, I would find any way possible to make this right for me.

I wish you well.

Blessings,

Brigid

[miss piggy]

Hello Dogbit,

The best example was a recent one in which she told me that I could not get anything out of my original home unless I had stated it in writing earlier.  Since I left the house with only the clothes on my back and was too afraid to go back in, there are a lot of personal things, ie., my mothers diaries and personal affects as well as my Dad's and Brother's.  She said I should have asked for them earlier.

I don't get this.  It seems rather besides the point.  It may make her job harder to ask for them now, as opposed to later, but that doesn't make it impossible.  just more work for her.  If she says that again, say, well I'm asking for them NOW!  What are you going to do for me?!  Also, lawyers talk a good game.  They generally do know what they are doing, but litigators in particular hate paperwork.  They love the courtroom (or conference room) cockfight.  They leave the paperwork to their secretaries.  I suspect your request means paperwork and she is trying to manage her client.  Paperwork slows them down and costs them money (they have to do real work, not just talk).

I agree with the above in that lawyers and doctors can sometimes look down on their clients.  If you speak up for yourself, she may respect you more.  I use to worship doctors, but I don't anymore.  They were once in high school, just like me, they have families, just like me.  I have yet to meet a woman doctor who didn't think she was a entitled princess of some sort.  Sorry, just my own personal prejudice.  I also live next door to a professional woman who looks down on me because I am a stay at home mother.  She doesn't know my work history or anything because she doesn't talk to any of the neighbors but for a "hi there!" and rose parade wave to the little people.

Also, there are many lawyers (I live in California and we have loads of lawyers  ) who have great "reputations" and who knows how they got their "fine reputation".  It could just be for one aspect of their work.  For example, the prosecutors in the Scott Peterson case were laughed at until the case turned and their strength is closing arguments.  (I think they were awesome by allowing the jury to fall in love with Scooter and then feeling the betrayal when listening to the Amber tapes.  Brilliant lawyering.) 

I also think your H is trying to wear you down and outfight you.  It's not taking any energy out of him, since he probably loves a fight.  Just stay the course. 

Sorry, after all this blather I don't know if you need a new attorney, or a new approach to your attorney.     MP

 

[vunil]

I wonder if part of her good reputation is just the way she acts-- sometimes hard-assy sort of people are considered good at their job even though they are not better than anyone else.  I've noticed that a lot with doctors (I don't have much experience with lawyers) and business people especially. 

It seems like part of this is your reaction to her, but I guess I think-- that's ok!  You are allowed to like some people and feel more comfortable with them than others.  I mean, if you didn't like her because of a really trivial reason that would still be your perogative.  This doesn't seem like a trivial reason-- you don't feel comfortable with her and she is keeping you from doing things that you want to do.  And she isn't giving you a good reason for why.

Maybe try a little honesty with her. She probably likes blunt statements, someone who looks her in the eye, etc.  You could try just having a list of really clear questions and telling her you are needing answers to those questions at this juncture.  Just look her in the eyes after you say this and then calmly ask her what you want to ask her.  If that doesn't go well, then it just seems the chemistry isn't there.  It's not something to blame yourself for, it just is.

I still feel like you should really feel her on your side.  I would find it stressful not to feel that because I would never know if the outcome could have been better with someone else.  Maybe just that statement might be enough to jolt her out of her way of acting with you.  In court or mediation or whatever it's going to feel so strange and adversarial that without feeling her support it could be pretty yucky.

I had a doctor once who was supposed to be "the best."  I never felt he was on my side, though, and I felt belittled by him.  I really wish now I had never worked with him because in the end he was not competent and wasted my time.  But I talked myself out of my doubts because I figured it was "just me."  So maybe I am just coming from that experience in my advice-- take or leave as you like!

[Plucky]

I don't like your attorney either.  What does your therapist say?  Is it working for you to have an attorney who pushes the same buttons your xH does?   
I agree that if she is like your xH, she could fight to the death for you.  But she has to be motivated to do it.  Face it, if she is an N, and getting paid, she can get her supply by helping you, or by screwing you, right?

How about getting an advocate in between you and the N Attorney?  Do you have a friend with a lot of pent up anger (I'm not geographically close enough or I'd volunteer) to get her in line for you?

It takes an N to fight an N.  I'm not an N, but I do have enough N qualities to fight them now.  As long as they are not related to me.
Plucky   

[dogbit]

What does your therapist say?  Is it working for you to have an attorney who pushes the same buttons your xH does?   


Plucky!  My therapist says basically what several of you have mentioned.  She may have narcissistic qualities which do push my buttons but that does not make her a bad attorney.  I just wish there was a magic pill I could take that would keep me from feeling so fearful when I have to interact with people like this.  So I think the cure lies within myself and not in changing my attorney or finding a new one.  And there was a prior thread that talked about people appearing very narcissistic in their professional lives but going home to their families and being quite normal.  I am really not comfortable being fearful because it leads me to not liking myself very much and wanting to withdraw which makes me think I am not communicating very well and at $200/hour, I would like to make the best of the time  .  I guess the good news is that in the last two years, I am listening to myself more closely and when I feel that fear, I need to find someone else to be with.  Interesting that you should mention someone with pent-up anger to go with me!  When it comes to other people, I am a bull dog...So I know what you mean.  If things get worse, maybe I can pay for a plane ticket for you to come on out! 

Miss Piggy...You're absolutely right.  He is trying to wear me down.  My attorney did admit in a moment of candor that this is one of the worst divorces she has ever handled in 30 years.  He has some serious medical problems currently due to years and years of drinking but being very high functioning.  This is a terrible thing to say and I mean it partially kiddingly but whenever I hear an ambulance, I cross my fingers that it is going to his address.   

Brigid...That is a great idea!  Networking for women divorcing.  When I started on my long journey with my two daughters in the world of special education, everything I learned, I learned on the playground from other mothers.  I even got phone numbers of women who didn't know me and would cold call them to ask their advice and experience and they were all so giving!  I ended up becoming a volunteer advocate myself and would go to meetings with parents who didn't know the ropes yet.  And now I actually have a job in special education.  Fortunately, it is 3000 miles away from my "training ground" where I was known as Mrs. Mother from Hell and the chances of getting a job there was zero    So, Brigid, how are you going to do this and how can I help!!!! 

And, thanks everyone for your input. 

[onlyrenting]

Dogbit

My N-H wrote me an e-mail saying almost the exact same thing about me.  I left him because he told me to get mental help and off drugs this is why I left. He told his BIL he plans on saying Im on drugs and a drunk. (I don't drink, only drugs I take are hormones, otherwise I may have already done him harm.

I found a website I think Bunny gave his name, he is a PD lawyer expert, giving seminars and offers his service to speak for you with mediators about all types of PD.  What a judge  can expect and how to deal with this type, the lies they will tell and other difficulties.
The energy I would spend on making sense to the mediator about the crazy person, could jepordize my short time to focus on our D. Already I feel better to have someone else explain how to see through the lies. I do have lots of crazy e-mails and the mental evaluation that says he is an N but my N-H is so dense he can't see it, and Im just done with defending myself about all the lies.
 

Bridgit

I honestly thought at one time about starting a networking group for women having to go through the divorce processI found a web site with all kinds of stories, questions about divorce, child custody and found some good things to know.

As I was reading through the replys I found most the legal-beagals were cold and heartless. One reply read well you made your bed too bad. You decided to sleep with the guy now you have a kid too bad. They just have no tact or compassion.
Maybe they should be this way if they want to be the pit-bull of the group.  I think when you deal with people emotions are high and maybe a little understanding would go along way with the posters on their site.

I felt most people had the same questions. Most responses from the wana-be lawyers  had no value, but some did. 
People that have gone through the same things could offer hope to the hurting.
I think this site had hundreds that felt lost and worried about their children and many, many questions went unanswered.


Judges have the ultimate rule, doesn't always depend on the lawyers to make it happen.
I read stories where people did their own paper work never involved lawyers and had the judge see it their way.
I also saw where you should have one to review pensions, making sure you have your home refinanced and don't trust anyone to do the RIGHT thing. The real stories of people like you had more to give than the lawyers being heartless with their cold and sometimes ignorant answers.

Dogbit, I think the attorney you have may be the norm, it would be rare to find a lawyer  who had feelings about everthing you are going through. I know the shaky feeling when you feel the pit-bull in the room, but N's think they are pit bulls I know my H thinks he is. Pit-bulls love to fight other dogs, they like people.  Let the N-attorney go at it, just remind her you are people, save the heartless fight for the other dogs. ..................OR

[Plucky]

Hey dogbit,
can I just reiterate that you need to motivate your attorney to be on your side?  By whatever means you have.   You are close to her, so you can tell how to do it.  If it involves questioning her competence, do it.  Take that one question about your belongings, get an answer from somewhere else, and say that according to your other sources, if the attorney is good, that shouldn't be an issue.   Say it with a straight face and no emotion.  Say it as if it is just a fact, and you are not saying anything about her per se, and if she was not a good attorney it is no skin off your nose, but this is what you have learned, and since she is a good attorney, or so she said she was, she will do this.  And no stupid thing like this will come up again.

Just a suggestion.  Even if she is your employee basically, does not mean she will automatically do a good job for you.   That is just plain human nature.  I think that thinking of her as a dog is a good idea.  Train her, using the biscuit or the whip.

Most law firms have lower-billing associates who can do some of the work.  If you can get one of them to interface with some of the time, it might be a more human person, and you could save some money too.  Just ask if she has an associate you could ask questions of, so you won't always be wasting her precious time, you knwo how busy she is, and you are conscious of her billing rate.
Plucky

[mum]

Hi, Dogbit. Sorry this mess is still ongoing....I can relate!!

My first attorney was "nice". WAY too nice. She listened to me like a therapist....she almost cried when I cried. She had no bitchiness what so ever. She lost.

My new attorney is professional and measured. She listens to me, and advises me on the law, sometimes telling me things I don't like. She may not be an N, but she is not ruffled by anyone.  The firm she works for is noteworthy for their integrity.  She is not "warm and fuzzy". That's my therapists job. We do, occassionally compare lousy husband storied, but infrequently.
She gets angry FOR me, that's what I pay her to do. She believes in my cause, but will not lie to me about legal things to make me feel good. I believe she will win things for me....but JUDGES are far more important than any attorney, so that is always a crap shoot.

My ex's attorney is a total, self absorbed bitch. She left Great Britain eons ago, but puts on a hugely affected British accent in the courtroom. It's almost funny. She has a reputation for having "gone over to the dark side". The firm she works for is unscrupulous, but they win many times, with sheer intimidation. She is a total N, and her attitude and similarities to my ex are unreal.
She has the judge completely intimidated. She won.
SO, if your attorney is a bitch and not warm and fuzzy, but is willing to kick butt on your behalf, keep her. I would rather have an N on my side in court, then not.

You also got some good advice about TELLING you attorney what to do for you. I have no doubt my ex TELLS his attorney in no uncertain terms, what he wants her to do.  Tell you attorney to find a way to get your stuff. But be prepared for her to tell you what the law is, even if it stinks.  She may be too cautious, but with the lies your ex tells, you certainly don't need a breaking and entering  charge.
Hang in there. The courts suck. Family court sucks the most.  Accept that and don't focus on that (or you will go down the deep spiral of negativity). Focus on the good stuff (you got him out of your life...sorta) and move on into happiness.

[dogbit]

Tell you attorney to find a way to get your stuff. But be prepared for her to tell you what the law is, even if it stinks.  She may be too cautious, but with the lies your ex tells, you certainly don't need a breaking and entering  charge.
Hang in there. The courts suck. Family court sucks the most.  Accept that and don't focus on that (or you will go down the deep spiral of negativity). Focus on the good stuff (you got him out of your life...sorta) and move on into happiness.

Thank you Mum.....The law does stink.  Family court is not interested in a pissing contest.  It is not at all like what you see on TV in criminal court.  It's something that is hard for me to come to terms with.  I always believed almost pathologically  in being fair.  But that's the way it is and I'll just deal with it.  I recently realized I had to be prepared to give up everything to get anything.  I don't mean that to sound martyr-like....only an attitude I need to have to proceed with a clear mind.  I certainly will come out of this with at least half which is all I wanted initially.  I did agree to him retaining the cemetary plots.    Mother Theresa, I am not!  And the breaking and entering charge is a very real scenario which I have no doubt he would employ even though he does not have sole possession of the house.  Good point!  One which I have no doubt my attorney is aware of and trying to avoid. 
And thank you everyone else.  It felt good to get this off my chest.     

[Brigid]

dogbit,

I always believed almost pathologically in being fair.

Me too.  Do you think that is the result of how we were raised?  I can walk away and put away almost anything unpleasant as long as the end felt fair to me.  If not, it eats away at me forever.  I am equally bothered if I feel someone else has not been treated fairly--either by me or others.  If by me, I will do whatever I can to correct the situation.

Thanks for the offer to help with my divorce support/network.  I have been bouncing the idea around in my head for awhile and have talked to enough women who can or could have used it, that I think it is a good idea.  I think that help from the internet can be great, but one-on-one when you are in a state of depression and devastation can be very helpful.  Just seeing how others have made it through to the other side and found happiness again is so beneficial.

I suppose you and mum are right and breaking and entering is not such a great idea, but it sure sounds tempting.

Hang in there darlin'.

Brigid

[dogbit]

Me too.  Do you think that is the result of how we were raised?  I can walk away and put away almost anything unpleasant as long as the end felt fair to me.  If not, it eats away at me forever.  I am equally bothered if I feel someone else has not been treated fairly--either by me or others.  If by me, I will do whatever I can to correct the situation.

It's just easier to fight for someone else at least in my situation.  And, yes.  I believe it was because of how we were raised.  We either gave in to what we were told or we fought back.  Unfortunately, because of the rural nature of where I live, where everyone is related by birth or marriage to everyone else, secrecy is paramount in daily relationships.  It won't stay that way forever but for now, it exists.  Even to try to get a group of similarly "conflicted" people together means "telling"....so most if not all people here shy away from any semi-private discussions on a one-to-one basis.  One of my heroes is Stephen King who never forgot his roots and actually went to a local AA meeting for a period of time.  I wish we all could follow his example.