Being sorry & types of apologies

[Portia]

Thanks to Flower (a member last here in April) for the following link. I think it’s a topic worth reviving. What do you think?

“Here's a link on apologizing and what is involved in a genuine apology.
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What it Means to be Sorry:
The Power of Apology in Mediation
 
Mediation Quarterly, Vol. 17, Number 3 (Spring 2000)
Carl D. Schneider, Ph.D., Mediation Matters

http://www.divorcenet.com/md/mdart-14.html
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some more on apologising (paraphrased and quoted directly) from author Dorothy Rowe:

3 types of apology

One: “Yes that happened, I accept my responsibility and I am sorry.” A true apology.

Two: “Well perhaps something like that happened but not as you describe it. I’m sorry you were upset but I was very busy at the time, my health was poor, you don’t know what I had to put up with from your father…..”

“I’m sorry you were upset” is a statement of pity for someone, but it the pity we feel for someone whose suffering has nothing to do with us personally. It is not an apology.

Three: “How dare you say that to me! The things you’re talking about never happened.”


Two and three are refusals to establish what did in fact happen.


About people who use methods two and three: “The fear of losing the picture they have of themselves in the world, their fear of a conscience punishing them for past misdeeds, may be so strong that it makes it impossible for them to take their relationships with other people into consideration. Usually such people do not love their challenger, and so there is no incentive for them to look after the challenger, particularly if doing so would put them at risk. They might profess a love for the challenger and believe that they are telling the truth, but all they ever feel is a mild, sentimental affection, and then only when the challenger pleases them. They might want the challenger to love them, but not at the expense of allowing that person a victory over them.

One of the saddest, hardest things that we have to do is to accept that those people, who in an ideal world would have loved us bountifully simply because we existed, are limited by their own sense of being unloved and by their jealousy, envy and hate – to the extent that they are unable even to know what generosity and compassion are, much less exhibit them….to admit that by unlucky chance we have been born into a family where love is in very short supply, that is a sadness we take to the grave. Difficult though it is, the best we can do is not blame ourselves for being unlovable but to see the situation clearly and do what can be sensibly done to protect ourselves from further hurt.”

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When did someone last apologise to you and mean it?
Or when did you last apologise and mean it?

How many apologies have you heard that fall into categories two and three?

[Sela]

Well now.....since I just appologised to Mud and feel like I meant it, I think I've got that one covered.

When someone did so to me?  I think the last one was a person on this board and it was heart felt on both accounts, I believe.

Appologies are somewhat relieving don't you think?

I mean, when I feel like I've said or done something wrong, I feel relieved when I finally get up the guts to admit it and say so.  It might not be as helpful to the other person as I might hope, if they choose to discount/disbelieve or otherwise perceive my appology,  but I know it does me good no matter.  It's relieving.

And those that seem truly sorry for whatever, who say so and I believe them.....that does me good too.  It just feels worse to believe someone isn't sorry, refuses to say so, and maybe I even feel a little crazy (where I might ask myself:  "Am I silly to feel angry/hurt/whatnot?  If there was a wrong done to me why doesn't the other person see it?  Maybe I'm nutty??").

Appologies, under those circumstances feel really affirming to me....("I'm not nutso and thanks for letting me know it by appologising").

After my first marriage ended, before I met and married my current husband, I attended a group for single parents.  We had many interesting speakers but I one I remember distinctly because he seemed to hit on really important stuff, was a man who spoke to us about the differences between men and women (attitudes, thoughts, etc....get your mind outta there!  ) and he said:

"For any relationship to work, both parties must really honour eachother.  I mean really honour eachother and part of that honouring is appologising for wrongs we do or say.  There will always be wrongs that we say or do because we are not perfect.  Really honouring eachother is also accepting and believing those sincere and brave appologies that our partner gives humbly and being brave and sincere in appologising to them likewise.  If we each honour the other humbly our relationships will succeed by default."

That stuck in my head.  Appoligies are only a small part of honouring another but an important one.
I think that is what he was saying.

  Sela

[Sela]

...my current husband...

As ifffffff I intend to have many more of them, a whole batch of 'em, get in line.....next!!!

 

I mean my husband.

  Sela

[longtire]

Hi Portia,
This post struck a chord with me.  I think it would have helped greatly if my wife had EVER honestly apologized to me for what was going on.  If she had, I think I would have been able to work with her.  As it is, all I ever got was either "Sorry!" said in an angry ormocking tone or "I don't agree that I did anything, but I'm sorry if you somehow felt hurt."  Yuck!

In reading the article, I was struck by how important it was to be vulnerable to the person you are apologizing to.  Do you suppose that is one reason why disordered people find it so hard to do?  They know how they would (mis)treat someone apologizing to them, so they expect others to treat them the same way.  Or is it just that they are too fear-driven to take that chance on intimacy and vulnerability?

I have apologized to my wife in the past for some of the things that I have done to her which were unkind.  She usually would bring it back up as a weapon later.  I finally reached a point where I was no longer willing to give her the ammunition to attack me with.  (As if she had any problem finding things to blame me for anyway.  )  Some people are not safe to apologize to.  How sad a statement is that?  Not only is real forgiveness witheld, but the apology is seized on as a way to hurt the apologizer.

[onionlayers]

I'm not sure things are this clear cut -- or at least, that the second option is wrong always (not that anyone said it was). For instance, my NH will take offense when I disagree with him, no matter how gently I try to approach the issue. Later, he will tell me that I "obviously don't care" because I did not apologize. I used to always apologize, to keep the peace, but I am no longer willing to do that. Last week, for instance, he lectured me for a LONG time, telling me how badly I had treated him, how dare I, etc. Only, I really feel that I was appropriately assertive as I am learning to be (my therapist agreed). There are times when I will tell him "I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt" because I feel like he wants me to admit to a wrong when I do not feel I wronged him, but I can at least acknowledge his feelings.

On the other hand, it is probably healthier for me to disagree with him...<sigh> It is very difficult. How do I know I'm not just being selfish and ignoring his needs -- what makes my perspective better than his? If he feels hurt, isn't that my fault? Sometimes I can be mean, although I try to be kind.

When I say I am sorry (and I mean it) he tells me my sorry means nothing, or that I don't mean it. <sigh>

OL

[amethyst]

One of the first things that I had to learn as a recovering person is that I am not responsible for other's feelings, but that I am utterly responsible for my behavior. I also know that I can be assertive (this came about after years of work) and my assertiveness can be intimidating to those who are less assertive. I don't apologize for being assertive, but I do let people know that I understand that it can be intimidating and that is not my intention. The cool thing about that is that often the people who were afraid to be assertive see that it works out for the best and become more outspoken too.

If I say something that somebody disagrees with and that person is hurt by what I say, which had no reference to them at all, I do not owe an apology. If the person disagrees with me and tells me their personal story and beliefs, if I still disagree and tell them so and why, I am not responsible for their feelings. On the other hand, if I call the person a "dumb ass" for what they believe, I owe them an apology for calling them a "dumb ass," but not for speaking my beliefs.

On the other hand, if I do something that impacts another person in a negative way, even if it was inadvertant, I need to be responsible for that, make amends and apologise. The best amends is not an apology...amends means to stop doing what is harmful and to start doing what is good.

I can think of lots of situations that trample on others' boundaries. For instance, on my last job, my employer sent out a memo telling us not to use heavy perfume, put on any hand lotions or spray anything at our desks, etc because some people have chemical sensitivities. It even asked us not to apply makeup or lipstick at our desks, which some people were doing...tacky as that may sound. The memo was very cut and dried. I had been wearing a light perfume and I stopped using it altogether, thinking that maybe even if it smelled light to me, it might be overwhelming to someone else. I also have mild chemical sensitivities and there are some perfumes and lotions that make me nauseated, so I thought maybe my perfume could really bother others even though it smelled good to me.

One day, after the memo came out, somebody behind me put on hand lotion at her desk which was heavily perfumed and cloying...and I reacted to it...my nose ran, I got a headache, I felt dizzy and nauseated. I turned around and said,"Did somebody just spray perfume? I feel as I am going to be sick." I had no idea who had done it, but the offender, who basically was a very nice gal and a great worker, got very hostile and demanded an apology. Luckily, my boss was right there and kindly asked the woman to wash it off. Later on I talked to the woman and said,"I am sorry if I sounded abrupt when I smelled that lotion. Actually, I had no idea what product had been used and who used it. I am extremely sensitive to some scents and it startled me. I got an instant headache and felt very sick. I hope you realize that this was not a personal attack. I like you very much and I don't want this to ruin our relationship. I know that sometimes I can come across as very assertive." That was not an apology, but it was a sincere attempt to reach out and heal a breach. The woman actually cried, she said she forgot about the memo, she said she admired my ability to be assertive and honest because it had been helpful for all of us in previous situations, we made up, and she never did it again. She made amends by not doing again. Had I been self-righteous and unforgiving in this case, had I not reached out, I would have been very much in the wrong and I would have left both her and myself with unfinished business.

It's the unfinished business that gets us every time.

Later on someone told me that the perfume I had been wearing had really bothered them and that they were glad I had stopped using it. I told them I was really sorry, which was an apology. I also told them if I ever happened to wear something that bugged them (shampoo, deodorant or makeup) to let me know and that I would not be offended.

[d'smom]

When did someone last apologise to you and mean it?
Or when did you last apologise and mean it?

How many apologies have you heard that fall into categories two and three?


just want to say someone has mailed me recently a really good article called "go ahead, say youre sorry" by a guy named aaron lazare phd from the jan/feb 1995 issues of Psychology Today.

i need to try and google it and see if i can link it here because its a good adjunct to the article above.  maybe i can type some in but its really long. it says a lot of similar things.

when i last apologised: hopefully to mudpuppy or others here. 

i also had the opportunity to  apologise just a few days ago to delphine, before reading the article above. was glad to see i did it correctly.  (i think)

she was writing a class assignment on something 'that emotionally changed her'. she told me she was writing about 'being left in ca' and asked me if i minded if 'she got really mad at me for a couple of pages'.

i told her not at all, then asked what exactly she was mad at, since weve never been able to talk much about her perceptions of what happened. (since we arent allowed to communicate.) she told me very reasonably she had been upset that noone had warned her or told her, she had just felt suddenly abandoned...... (something people here can relate to i =know=). (i hadnt known til the last minute either, and they had told me they would take care of her, stupid me i assumed that meant they would be emotionally supportive) 

so.....
1) i told her i was so very sorry as her mother that things had gone the way they did..
2) i told her it had never ever ever been my intention to hurt her in any way.
3) i told her i was trying to do the very best i could for her, but had made a horrible mistake.
4) i told her that my understanding was that she would be enjoying herself with her grandparents, but i was wrong. 
5) i told her that it had caused me a lot of pain and regret knowing that i had caused her pain.
6) and, (i was glad to see this was mentioned) i asked her what i could do to help make it better for her emotionally.

(she told me that i should just keep getting healthier and doing what im doing.)

after reading that article, i was glad to see, that i seemed to have  intuitively included most of the elements in the article.

i hope, that she felt that was a sincere and appropriate apology and that its the beginning of us being able to talk about our feelings and work some of this through together appropriately. being forced to suppress her feelings, especially anger towards me and them, has made it so that none of this was 'ok' to talk about..... but im really glad that she is breaking out and expressing it, even at school, which i think is really brave and shows she is less ashamed.


now ===  apologies in the second category:

MY MOTHER! if only i could get a nice apology out of my mother. her apologies go like this:

me: mom, you know it really hurt me that dad was a drunk and you never seemed to protect us.
mom: well, you just liked to be bad. if you behaved better, things wouldnt have happened that way.

me: you know, i really wanted to go to art school and it really hurt me that even though i was accepted to several schools, it seems like during the divorce you just forgot about our education and let us flounder.
mom: well, you were a bad student. why should we send you to school when you were such a bad student.
(that wasnt true, i got straight a's until 10th grade when i just gave up trying and ran away from home.)

me:you know, i just feel like i was never loved as a child and felt as though i had no family and things were really awful for us.
mom:well, what do you expect me to do about it? it wasnt my responsibility.   <<(huh?????)>> whose responsibility was it????

i cant explain to her that these reactions diminish me and make me feel worthless. she cannot see it. the most she can come up with is a kind of condescending, "well its really a shame -you- choose to feel that way". bleagh!!!!!

my father would rather have his arms cut off than apologise.  and interestingly, i have told many people, that the number one thing i want from him, is an apology.  if given the choice between a lot of money and a public apology in front of all our family and friends - i would reeeeeeeeeally like to get an apology.........

so many of us would be healed by a true real apology. it would help restore us.