Author Topic: What is emotional incest ?  (Read 13327 times)

David P

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What is emotional incest ?
« on: September 08, 2005, 09:40:47 AM »
I read in a few posts on this board some references to 'emotional incest'.What is that?
I have a friend, call him Joe, who is 41 years old and he is married to Jeni who is the same age.She has two teens from her first marriage Jay and Kaya,15 and 12 years old respectively.Joe and Jeni married last year and he is really upset, worried and confused because Jeni treats her son like a lover more that a son. I asked him how and he replied that she and Jay meet for lunch, she calls him"darling", they hold hands and embrace,she confides in him (her son) as much as she confides in Joe her husband about adult matters.She also makes arrangements to go places with Jay and does not tell Joe. She fiercely shields and protects her son from any all inconvenience and discomfort.She calls him at his school dorm every night when he is in school( boarding school). She forbids Joe from speaking to Jay in any way which may upset the boy and so on and so on.  Is this heathy ? My friend is getting ready to take it to a counselor.

amethyst

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2005, 12:24:00 PM »
Hi David, You nailed it. You friend Joe is upset and rightfully so because his wife is being emotionally incestuous with her son. In fact, it is one of the most blatant cases I have ever heard of. Not only that, the flirtatious behavior and hand-holding is covert incest...the wife is treating the son more like a boyfriend, a romantic object. Their relationship is sexualized. Where does the daughter fit into all this?

I feel very sorry for Joe. Being a step-parent is hard enough without this kind of behavior. I hope counseling helps. It sounds as if the mom is pretty hardened in her behavior and attitudes and doesn't want to deal with Joe as a partner. Is the mother subtly pushing the daughter in Joe's direction? I know that sounds sicker than all get out, but with a mother whose behavior is so blatant, I would not be surprised. Please tell your friend that he has my deepest support.

Emotional incest is whenever a parent or parental figure uses a child to meet their needs....it's pretty simple. It can include confiding in a child things that should be shared with another adult, treating the child as a partner, best friend, or therapist, expecting the child to behave as an adult, turning the child into a partner, expecting parenting from the child, using the child to run interference with the adult world, cutting the child off from childhood in order to meet parental needs. Often the emotional incesting parent will use the child against the other parent.

I'll give an example of a situation that can be handled in a healthy way and in an emotionally incestious way. Lets say there is a family of 4, Dad, Mom and 2 kids, son and daughter. Let's say Dad loses his job, finances are tight, future is uncertain.

In a healthy family, Dad and Mom talk about it. Mom lets Dad vent about his feelings of job loss, which include feelings of anger, sadness, loss, fear, inadequacy, it can run the gamut. She is empathetic to his pain even though she may feel frightened and sad, and Dad lets her talk about her feelings. They are partners. As two adults, they support eachother and make healthy decisions. They devise a budget, make plans, cut back on spending, maybe both parents look for other employment, whatever they have to do to keep the family going. After the adults have talked, they sit the kids down and tell them the truth, which is that they are facing tougher times, and tell the kids what changes are going to be made. Maybe they have to sell their house and move, maybe some extras like cable will have to be done away with, maybe allowances will have to be reduced, maybe some things will have to be sold. They listen to their kids feelings and don't shame them for being frightened or unhappy. The parents are the ultimate decision makers and the kids understand that the family is in this together. If the kids decide to work part-time to help, the parents are very clear that whatever money the kids earn belongs to the kids. In other words, they don't depend on the kids to bail them out or fix their feelings. In a situation like this it's gonna be a bumpy ride, there will be conflict and negotiation, but the parents are in charge and they are being parental, which makes the kids feel protected. The attitude of the parents is that Sh*t happens in life and we deal with it together, but we as parents are ultimately responsible for the well-being of the family as a whole. The kids are not blamed for the situation in any way. The mom and dad solve the problem as best they can. When the next crisis arises, let's say maybe a health problem, the parents once again will deal with it as partners and will be honest with their kids about what is going on.

In an emotionally incestuous family, there will be at least one parent who will not be willing to talk to the other parent and deal with the situation in a healthy way. Maybe mom turns to the son and calls the dad a loser behind his back and moans about her misfortune, which is N behavior. Maybe dad turns to the daughter and uses her to dump his feelings about his job loss and what a leech mom is, even though mom is willing to help and wants to partner as an adult with dad. It can get into triangulation, where the kids are expected to carry messages from one parent to the other. It can get into overt abuse if one of the kids becomes a scapegoat and is expected to carry the family shame and pain. The crisis does not get resolved....and as the family goes from crisis to crisis, things just get worse.

Our children are not here to meet our needs. We are there to meet our own in healthy adult ways and to meet our children's needs.

I can think of many situations that may appear normal but that are emotionally incestuous. Let's say one of the kids is perceived as outstanding, an A student, a great athlete, goodlooking....the kid looks like a "Star." Then lets say something goes wrong...like the kid flunks math or goes into a depression. If the parents are using the "Star" as an emotional extension, problems the child has will be met with denial and anger and the kid won't get the help they need to deal with the math problem or depression. If the "Star" experiences any type of failure, the "Star" is scapegoated.  In a healthy family, the gifted child is not seen as more valuable or less vulnerable than the other children and any problems any of the kids have will be dealt with realistically and compassionately.

In another situation, lets say that a parent of outstanding accomplishment and intelligence constantly pushes a child to be his or her clone. I have a friend who is of high intelligence who always loved working with his hands and who wanted to be an auto mechanic. He was also an outstanding violinist but never wanted to become a career musician. His father did the healthy thing...he recognized his son was not destined to be a doctor, lawyer or CEO in the traditional sense. He let his son be who he was...did not pressure college...and my friend is happy, healthy and did very well in his chosen field. His sister, who is a close friend from high school, does have an outstanding career, but once again, the parents didn't push her. They let their kids choose what they wanted to do with their lives. In my husband's case, his father was a physician. My husband resembles his father in looks. The father constantly pushed my husband to become a doctor, even though my husband has no interest and talent in that direction. My husband has had to deal with feeling as if he let his father down.

The bottom line is, that in healthy families, the parents encourage the kids to be who they really are and don't expect their children to meet their needs.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 12:48:04 PM by amethyst »

miss piggy

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2005, 12:35:50 PM »
Hi David and Amethyst,

Great explanation, A! 

David, it seems that the mother is using her son as an emotional security blanket.  I'm glad your friend's going to a counselor.

Just to give her the benefit of a doubt, she may be "telling the truth" to her 15 year old son, as Amethyst describes, and your friend might be uncomfortable with that.  For instance, my parents never spoke to us kids about money issues, ever.  My H's family did.  When H talked about money issues with the kids, I was extremely uncomfortable.  I didn't know if it was appropriate to burden them.  But now I realize that it is OK because we are being real, and we are not saying stuff like "it's your fault" or "daddy's a loser"  or "if only your mother didn't spend so much", the blaming and shaming garbage.

She may also be protecting her son against an "outsider" because perhaps he was emotionally burned by past boyfriends....

...I don't think so, but you never know.  We don't have all the facts.  Again, it's a good thing your friend can take the specifics to a counselor.  MP

David P

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2005, 05:47:33 PM »
Ok , I am starting to understand the concept -my friend Joe has also told me that whenever he and Jeni (wife) have any kind of arguement or disagreement she "shuts down and turns to her children." He explained that when this happens they shut him out and 'they' go into a huddle for days on end. The problems between them never seems to get handled. Joe said that he feels like 'the enemy' at these times. He also mentioned yesterday that Jeni admitted that she has a 'journal' on him. He asked her to show him and she did. It was a daily written record of all the difficulties that they had together since they were married ( about 11 months ago). Jeni had recorded it all in minute detail and itwas basically a 'shit sheet' in which Joe was blamed for al lof her bad feeling and those of her children.
She and Joe had a huge 'heart to heart' two days ago and ,during that, she also said that she had been regularly going nto the children's rooms at bedtime and apologising to them for anything that Joe had said that had upset them during each day.
iI said the he needs to go to counseling pronto.
What do you think --
David.

amethyst

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2005, 05:56:03 PM »
Ok , I am starting to understand the concept -my friend Joe has also told me that whenever he and Jeni (wife) have any kind of arguement or disagreement she "shuts down and turns to her children." He explained that when this happens they shut him out and 'they' go into a huddle for days on end. The problems between them never seems to get handled. Joe said that he feels like 'the enemy' at these times. He also mentioned yesterday that Jeni admitted that she has a 'journal' on him. He asked her to show him and she did. It was a daily written record of all the difficulties that they had together since they were married ( about 11 months ago). Jeni had recorded it all in minute detail and itwas basically a 'shit sheet' in which Joe was blamed for al lof her bad feeling and those of her children.
She and Joe had a huge 'heart to heart' two days ago and ,during that, she also said that she had been regularly going nto the children's rooms at bedtime and apologising to them for anything that Joe had said that had upset them during each day.
iI said the he needs to go to counseling pronto.
What do you think --
David.

Joe and Jeni need to go to counseling pronto, yes. Don't think Jeni will be helped, however. Jeni sounds like a very sick woman who is trying to play the victim but is actually the abuser.

Joe also needs to get any financial things in common with Jeni back on his own turf and get some legal advice, pronto.
It sounds as if Jeni is setting Joe up for an expensive divorce and possible abuse charges.

Sorry to be so blunt. I know I don't have all the facts, but when I read what you wrote, David, the hair on the back of my neck stood up.

Amethyst

amethyst

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 06:03:24 PM »
David,
A great book on committed relationships is Coupleship by Sharon Wegsheider-Cruse. It sounds as if Jeni is doing absolutely the opposite of what the book recommends, which is why I am so concerned. If, in ignorance, the partners are doing some things the book doesn't recommend, that is one thing, and that's why people get into recovery. In this case, looks like Jeni does not want any coupleship at all...and that is why I sincerely question her ultimate intentions towards your friend.

What is the story of the previous marriage? 

David P

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2005, 07:05:22 PM »
Thanks to all so far -Joe is reading your replies.
He was married to a teacher who died from breast cancer two years before he married Jeni.
Jeni was married for ten years to M an alcoholic -she paints a picture of herself as a long suffering wife doing her best to raise two children while M drank the profits and and neglected them.
There is something not kosher about her whole story.
Jeni also insists that both her mother and her older sister can come visiting and sleep over anytime that they please without anyone asking Joe first - kind of like permanent open house for her sister and Mom.
Apparently, it is common for Jeni's daughter ( almost 13 years old and well developed) to jump into bed with Joe and Jeni at 7am. Joe and Jeni sleep butt naked because of the heat and Kaya (the daughter ) wriggles in between them . He has objected to Jeni who explains it all away by saying that Kaya just,"wants a cuddle ". Joe wants this to stop but Jeni will not see the problem.

 He is stressed out and said yesterday that ,"this is not how marriage is supposed to be, nobody hears me."

David

amethyst

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2005, 07:40:40 PM »
Thanks to all so far -Joe is reading your replies.
He was married to a teacher who died from breast cancer two years before he married Jeni.
Jeni was married for ten years to M an alcoholic -she paints a picture of herself as a long suffering wife doing her best to raise two children while M drank the profits and and neglected them.
There is something not kosher about her whole story.
Jeni also insists that both her mother and her older sister can come visiting and sleep over anytime that they please without anyone asking Joe first - kind of like permanent open house for her sister and Mom.
Apparently, it is common for Jeni's daughter ( almost 13 years old and well developed) to jump into bed with Joe and Jeni at 7am. Joe and Jeni sleep butt naked because of the heat and Kaya (the daughter ) wriggles in between them . He has objected to Jeni who explains it all away by saying that Kaya just,"wants a cuddle ". Joe wants this to stop but Jeni will not see the problem.

 He is stressed out and said yesterday that ,"this is not how marriage is supposed to be, nobody hears me."

David


Oh my god, David. Your friend needs to get out of there. ASAP. One thing he can do in the meantime is not sleep naked. Just to protect himself. Sounds as if Jeni has always gotten her way.

Sallying Forth

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2005, 02:40:49 AM »
He is stressed out and said yesterday that ,"this is not how marriage is supposed to be, nobody hears me."

David


Your friend has that right. This is way beyond emotional incest. This is a complex situation and isn't healthy for Joe. He needs to get out of there ASAP and he'll need therapy afterwards.

Jeni is not only being emotionally incestuous with her children but using them to avoid any connection with Joe. The bed incident is a graphic description of the barrier Jeni has erected against any kind of physical and emotional connection to her husband.

I get a yicky feeling just reading it about Jeni's behavior. :shock:
The truth is in me.[/color]

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amethyst

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2005, 02:35:45 PM »
Hi David,

My husband reads this board too and he wanted me to point out a couple things. First of all, he noticed that Joe's previous marriage had ended because his wife died....and that Joe had married Jeni only two years after his wife's death, which meant he was still grieving. He said,"I am assuming that Joe is a healthy loving guy who hung in there with his wife through her illness and her death, which indicates someone who is capable of deep committment and also someone that does the right thing. He got hooked up with Jeni due to the fact that he was still in a grief state; it takes a lot more than two years to get over the death of a spouse. Jeni knew a good thing when she saw it...and she probably sees Joe as a thing...an object. Jeni probably appeared to very nurturing until she changed the rules after the marriage. Joe is not dysfunctional. He is seeing the reality and naming it. Jeni, in her extreme selfishness, picked up on someone that will hang in there and work things out, but the tragedy in this case is that she is using Joe's humanity and strength against him."

Like me, my hubby feels Joe needs to get out immediately. He also feels that if Joe had met Jeni several years after the death of his wife, he would have been able to pick up that things were not right with Jeni and family much more easily and would have run in the opposite direction.

We both feel that Joe owes this family, who obviously hates him, nothing and that he needs to bail now.  By hanging in there, even with counseling (which will probably get nowhere)  he is going to be acting as a scapegoat and enabler...and may be putting himself in danger. The children, unfortunately, are probably too old, too hardened and too enmeshed with their very needy and twisted mother to change. Jeni will not change...my hubby thinks she is an N that is pretty close to a sociopath. He also feels that she may be very convincing about how victimized she is in therapy...because there are so many co-dependent therapists out there. My hubby also thinks the story of her previous marriage seems a little too pat. Both of us are in Al-anon and we don't hear recovering people blaming the ex spouse for being totally responsible for everything that went wrong in the marriage, so it looks as if Jeni has never tried to clean up her side of the street and is not about to start now.

My hubby also was very concerned with the journal that Jeni is keeping "against" Joe. He said that Jeni obviously went into this marriage from day one with no intention of having Joe be anything but "the enemy."

Plucky

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2005, 03:37:49 PM »
I agree with everyone here.  Joe, make a run for it.   It sounds like you are being set up.  How would you like to hear read out loud in court that you were naked in bed on numerous occasions with your 13 year old stepdaughter?  I'm sure there are worse things that will come out (be fabricatted) too.  And don't think that the 'facts' won't change to suit the purpose.  They will have 3 witnesses against you for anything they want to say.  Then you will be alone, still grieiving your first wife, smarting from the trap you were caught in and the subsequent libel and humiliation (maybe you'll be a registered sex offender!), and BTW paying through the nose for the lovely experience.
He may want to try and save the kids but you can't save them if you are sinking yourself.  Get out today and take that journal of hers with you.  Don't read it!  Just shred it.
a warning
Plucky

Sallying Forth

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2005, 10:58:19 PM »
He may want to try and save the kids but you can't save them if you are sinking yourself.  Get out today and take that journal of hers with you.  Don't read it!  Just shred it.
a warning
Plucky

Don't shred it. I don't know why just a gut feeling.

Joe, you can decide that for yourself. But definitely take it with you!
The truth is in me.[/color]

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Stormchild

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2005, 11:07:13 PM »
Don't shred it. I don't know why just a gut feeling. Joe, you can decide that for yourself. But definitely take it with you!

Because she will have a second copy somewhere, like in a safe deposit box, which she will then alter after he takes the original. If he keeps the original he can prove intent to defame.

Plucky

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2005, 02:10:03 AM »
Woah.  You lot are sharp.  I am glad you are on my side.  Ok don't shred it but try not to read it unless you really have to for some legal reason.
Plucky

Marta

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Re: What is emotional incest ?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2005, 03:11:33 AM »
David P,

I think what Jenni is doing amounts to not just emotional incest but also sexual abuse. I see a high probability that Kaya perhaps has already been subjected to sexual abuse of a much severe type, or has it waiting in the wings for her.

Since cutting ties with his wife Jenni will also involve facing the legal system, may be your friend should see a lawyer BEFORE he leaves Jenni and the house, before Jenni even gets the wind of what he is trying to do, before any confrontations between the two take place. It will save him much pain in future (read Dogbit’s posts on her attorney) A lawyer can tell you exactly what documents and evidence he needs to gather from the house, how to be proactive in this matter to face Jenni is the court, which it seems he is going to have to do, hopefully sooner rather than later. There are many on this message board who can give advice to your friend re. what it takes to face an N (or its variant) in court, and how to be proactive about it.

These are not things a decent person should ever do in separating from another decent person. It may even sound paranoid and in bad taste to someone who's never been involved in a confrontation with an N.

However, Ns don’t play it fair, and if you are not proactive in dealing with them, the experience can leave deep scars. I know I was very conflicted myself when I told a few weeks ago to “think like an N” in dealing and confronting an N. I have now come to accept that this is the only way to protect ourselves from the harm an N can inflict on us, should we ever attempt an escape from their web. Yes, Jenni definitely sounds like an N. I would also advice your friend to do all he can to read up on N, before involving an outside party such as a counselor re. Jenni’s son while he is still in the marriage. I suspect that it will not make things any better, only much, much much worse, possibly beyond his imagination.   

If I was in your friend’s shoes, I would do all I could to help the two children as well, and also gather evidence re. child abuse. In the meantime, he should definitely wear his PJs at night…

Marta