Author Topic: Therapy  (Read 5915 times)

October

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Therapy
« on: September 26, 2005, 06:13:58 AM »
I have some questions about therapy.

Firstly, does a psychiatrist or psychologist only find what they are prepared (able/qualified) to look for?

Secondly, why is so much down to the professional's opinion, and so little actually checked against objective criteria such as DSM?  I have never had any professional base his/her assessment of me on DSM, apart from as part of medical research.  (This may not be true of the US.)  I have had several therapists tell me that this objective diagnosis is wrong, based on their own opinion, without giving any alternative.

Finally, does therapy ever work?  I can see that it can provide insights, but it can also do endless harm.  Is it ultimately going to prove to be the phrenology of the 21st Century?

Brigid

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2005, 08:49:03 AM »
October asked:

Quote
Finally, does therapy ever work?  I can see that it can provide insights, but it can also do endless harm.

Based on the way you asked the question, I would have to say that yes, therapy does work for some people.  Certainly it cannot be said that it always works--no more than one could say that all therapists are good and qualified.  For me, therapy has worked miracles, but I did not come into it with years of depression, any kind of chronic mental illness, or serious trauma.  I was in the midst of situational depression and a great deal of anxiety, and had suffered a significant blow when I discovered all the lies and infidelity of my ex.  I probably could have gotten through all of that without a therapist, but I would not have healed the damage that was buried deeply from my childhood and relationship with my parents.  Without that healing, I was destined to repeat the same mistakes I had made throughout my life when becoming involved in relationships and using them to fix me rather than enhance my life.  In my case, my therapist was also my guide in helping me make decisions about how to move forward with the divorce early on in the process when I was still in a state of devastation and incapable of making good decisions.  Because of that, I came out of the divorce with what the children and I needed to move forward with our lives.  I have many friends who did not have that assistance, made some very poor decisions early on and have ended up suffering both financially and emotionally years later.

I don't feel qualified to address your other questions.  My reasons for seeking therapy were not to fix a problem with me, but to try and heal my marriage in crisis.  When the marriage could not be fixed (which ulitimately was the best thing for me), I continued in therapy and then found out I had problems in me that needed fixing.  I would never have seen it that way. 

October, I hope you can find the right therapist to work with the problems you have.  I'm sure that he/she exists, but you will need help to find that person.  I'm sure there are many here who are qualified to help you with that.

Blessings,

Brigid

David P

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2005, 09:27:23 AM »
Based on my recent experience with a T, I would prefer Russell Crowe hurl a telephone at me than get involved with another badder than bad T. ( I kinda liked Russ until he lost it with the phone thing) .
Go into therapy at your own risk !

David P. ( in emotional recovery)

longtire

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2005, 04:25:30 PM »
Hi October.  I'm sorry you have had such a bad time trying to get good help in your healing.

Firstly, does a psychiatrist or psychologist only find what they are prepared (able/qualified) to look for?
They are human despite years of training (:)) and still have limited experience, prejudices, and unresolved issues.  It is bound to messy.  Still, I think having other human being involved is required for our healing and growth.

Quote from: October
Secondly, why is so much down to the professional's opinion, and so little actually checked against objective criteria such as DSM?  I have never had any professional base his/her assessment of me on DSM, apart from as part of medical research.  (This may not be true of the US.)  I have had several therapists tell me that this objective diagnosis is wrong, based on their own opinion, without giving any alternative.
The DSM is primarily a diagnosing and labelling tool.  It provides very little if any information on how to treat anything.  That is up to the individual T, their training and experience, and their school of thought (Jungian vs. Behavioral vs. Fruedian, etc.).  People don't easily separate into neat categories like the DSM.  The only way to really find out what is going on is to use experience and LISTEN to the patient on many levels.  I believe a good T should be to tell the patient what they *believe* is going on.  Most are reluctant to do so for fear of triggering teh patient's denial or other defenses, or for "labelling" the patient who then begins to call themselves the diagnosis.  I don't have training, but it seems there is a middle ground of saying "I think you have some x traits and here is how we can work together to heal from that and make your life better when you are ready."  I know there was a period of time in my own recovery where I couldn't even have dealt with that.  Is there a diagnosis that you believe you have that the doctors don't seem to get, or are you getting various diagnoses that don't seem to fit?

Quote from: October
Finally, does therapy ever work?  I can see that it can provide insights, but it can also do endless harm.  Is it ultimately going to prove to be the phrenology of the 21st Century?
I believe that talking about our issues with other human beings is a critical part of our healing and growth.  You can do that with trained and with untrained people (like here).  Going to a trained and experienced T is *supposed* to be a help beyond that since their own projection and triggering should be minimized.  They are human too, and it doesn't always work out that way.  How would you like treatment to work?  I'm serious.  What is your picture of how things "should" work, and what has been missing from that in your experience?  A clear diagnosis?  A diagnosis you agree with?  Sufficient empathy?  Honesty from the T?
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

October

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2005, 05:35:39 PM »
My 'problem' is that every therapist I see tells a different story.  They listen to what has gone before, and seem never to take anything as 'given'.  So if Therapist A says X, then Therapist B says, not X, but Y.  Then Therpist C says, no, actually neither X nor Y, but Z.

And all the time, what I actually want is a road to recovery.  I want a diagnosis, because that helps me with planning a route.

Five years ago I had a route; get over this mountain, called Cptsd.   Fine.  Ok, how do I do that?  All the books say, you can't do it on your own, you need a specialist t as a kind of guide to help you find the path.  Fine.  But how do you do that, when the first t you see after that spends 15 weeks telling you that you do not have ptsd, and have never been abused by anyone, then in the final week admits that what you have is 'trauma related', but he is discharging you.

Then the next says you live in the wrong place.  Return to Go.

Then the next says you are so badly traumatised by your recent therapy that you need 6 months to recover.

Then the next says you need CBT.  Then leaves.  And leaves behind her a letter saying you do not have ptsd, but 'emotional issues'.  Except the mountain marked 'emotional issues' is, to me, the wrong mountain; if the ptsd symptoms are taken away, I can deal with emotional issues fine; I did it for years before the ptsd, and I can do it again. 

What seems to be true, is that these people find only what they are used to finding.  It is like the old question; what do donkeys look for when they are reading the Bible?  Stories about donkeys.  Same thing.  A psychiatrist who deals mostly in depression will find in me clinical depression, but will not find ptsd, because he is not a trauma specialist.  (This is absolutely true, of a well respected doctor at the Priory, where I went privately right at the beginning of all this, and paid a fortune to do so.  When I still had a job, and money in the bank.)  He will miss the clues which are there, staring him in the face.

He asked me about my dad, and I said 'he was a bully'.  He asked me about my mum.  I said 'she was selfish.'  He asked me to describe my childhood, and I said 'It was normal'.  He said, what do you mean, and I said 'To me it was normal.'

That is all.  Nothing further at all about that.  Is it normal to have a bully for a dad and a selfish mother?  Is it possible that problems in later life would derive from those things?  This doctor didn't bother asking, and so he never found out.  What he saw was that every time I saw him I was terrified of him; really scared.  And he never linked that to having a bully for a dad.

His diagnosis?  Depression.

Sorry, triggered into reliving that one.  Must try to get out of it again, if I can, or else I will spend the next couple of days at the Priory all over again.

What I am saying I think is, that if there is an objective means of achieving a diagnosis, and therefore a route map, then why is it not used more often.  And then, having that map, and having UK guidelines for the treatment of whatever it is, why not follow them?

It seems too subjective the way it is.  Too ad hoc, too based on whatever the t feels like doing on the day.  It is not quantified, it is not measured.  Sometimes they say it will be measured, and start off with a few perameters, but these are never followed through.  Sometimes they make promises about the beginning, middle and end, and again, these are not kept.

The reason I have nowhere else to go is that the social withdrawal which is a feature of my condition makes it hard for me to maintain social contacts with friends and family.  I am left relying on therapy to help me to overcome this, but all it does is to reinforce the bad patterns when I am let down, or mislead, or otherwise disappointed.

Brigid says that therapy works for some people.  This must be true.  But perhaps those are the people who have friends around them as well, and a meaningful role in life.  I used to have those things.  I need to regain them, but I need help to do that.  And what I want is to move onwards, instead of always coming back to the question of what is wrong, and having yet another opinion, based on what the therapist is familiar with.

Longtire says therapists are human.  To be honest, I would prefer one which wasn't.  I would prefer a computer based system, where I do not have to worry about the other side.  Where I do not have to ask the psychiatrist if he has ever taken a/ds, and then hear him tell me about his mother, who had severe depression for years, and then work out that he thinks I am his mother.  And then confirm it by asking him, when you were a child, did you have to be extra cheerful, in order to prevent your mother from falling deeper into depression.  And getting the answer yes, and having to say, you are doing this with me, and it is not helping me; I am not your mother.  You have to allow me to tell you how bad it is, instead of telling me it is not so bad. 

That is my current psychiatrist, God help me, who I am due to see again in 2 weeks or so, and who I think will try to discharge me again unless I agree to take drugs (His role is to prescribe, and he does not understand having a patient who prefers not to be prescribed to.  But I can't take what he offers, because I do not trust him.  I trusted the doctor before him, and took what he suggested, until he left without notice, and I went to an appointment one day and he had gone, with no warning whatever.  So I stopped taking the meds.  Just stopped dead, and threw them away.  Anyway it was too hard to go to the chemist to collect them.  That  might not be rational, but that is how it works.) 

I would much prefer a computer, without transference.

Sorry, didn't mean to moan, but these are difficult issues for me.  And it doesn't take a genius to work out that I am still very afraid of psychiatrists.  And now it is not just because of dad.

I think I need a new strategy.  In fact, I am certain I need a new strategy.  Doctors make me ill, and pdocs drive me insane.   :lol: :lol: :lol:   
« Last Edit: September 26, 2005, 05:40:30 PM by October »

Sallying Forth

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2005, 10:32:44 PM »
And all the time, what I actually want is a road to recovery.  I want a diagnosis, because that helps me with planning a route.

Hi October,
Do you need a clinical diagnosis to help plan a route to recovery?  How about going with the fact that you know you have cptsd and go from there. Sounds like a strange solution but maybe the best??? I assume you have read the diagnostic criteria and know you have many/most/all the symptoms. Do you need the clinical diagnosis for some reason? Just curious.

I self-diagnosed myself with Complex ptsd before any t did through my own symptoms and using the DSM-IIIR.

Quote
Five years ago I had a route; get over this mountain, called Cptsd.   Fine.  Ok, how do I do that?  All the books say, you can't do it on your own, you need a specialist t as a kind of guide to help you find the path.

I don't know if that is true, you can do it on your own. Find an avenue to use which will facilitate your own therapeutic process. Drawing, painting, acting, writing, journaling, etc. and begin. And then share it here.

I know another survivor who suffered the same type of abuse I did and she used collage to facilitate her own therapeutic process. She wrote a book about her process. Her t basically became a sounding board for the memories she processed on her own.

I'm writing books and journal. I do have a t and I only see him 2X month as I can't afford any more. I do 95% of the work myself at home and use my t, like my survivor friend, as a sounding board.  Besides this board I currently have no support networks.


Do you have a type of counseling called Peer Counseling in the U.K.? That might be an option.
http://www.mentalhealthconsumer.net/peer-support.html


How about EMDR? Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) is a relatively new treatment for traumatic memories that involves elements of exposure therapy and cognitive-behavioral therapy combined with techniques (eye movements, hand taps, sounds) that create an alternation of attention back and forth across the person's midline. While the theory and research are still evolving for this form of treatment, there is some evidence that the therapeutic element unique to EMDR, attentional alternation, may facilitate the accessing and processing of traumatic material.


How about EMM?
http://www.drjoecarver.com/Memory.html

Emotional Memory Management:  Positive Control Over Your Memory
Joseph M. Carver, Ph.D., Psychologist


Quote
What I am saying I think is, that if there is an objective means of achieving a diagnosis, and therefore a route map, then why is it not used more often.  And then, having that map, and having UK guidelines for the treatment of whatever it is, why not follow them?

It seems too subjective the way it is.  Too ad hoc, too based on whatever the t feels like doing on the day.  It is not quantified, it is not measured.  Sometimes they say it will be measured, and start off with a few perameters, but these are never followed through.  Sometimes they make promises about the beginning, middle and end, and again, these are not kept.

The diagnosis process is both subjective and objective according to my t (although there are no definitive tests). You need both and some t's don't use both to come to a decision and frequently misdiagnosis. I know one such person who was treated for 10 years for Bi-Polar with medication who turned out to have ptsd and be multiple AND not Bi-Polar at all.

Quote
The reason I have nowhere else to go is that the social withdrawal which is a feature of my condition makes it hard for me to maintain social contacts with friends and family.  I am left relying on therapy to help me to overcome this, but all it does is to reinforce the bad patterns when I am let down, or mislead, or otherwise disappointed.

I was to that point after I first began therapy - complete social withdrawal - due to ptsd. For me social contact lead to relationships with Ns and/or severely dysfunctional people. I have zip contact with my family except one brother and that is very sporadic.

Quote
Brigid says that therapy works for some people.  This must be true.  But perhaps those are the people who have friends around them as well, and a meaningful role in life.  I used to have those things.  I need to regain them, but I need help to do that.  And what I want is to move onwards, instead of always coming back to the question of what is wrong, and having yet another opinion, based on what the therapist is familiar with.

Therapy works if I do the work. Therapy in itself is cr*p. I have yet to find a perfect therapist. Even my t has made mistakes.

Basically I started therapy looking for a ptsd fix. My ptsd was steadily getting worse. What I discovered along the way is that I have all the tools within me for recovery. I had to find my road to recovery off the beaten path.

Quote
Sorry, didn't mean to moan, but these are difficult issues for me.  And it doesn't take a genius to work out that I am still very afraid of psychiatrists.  And now it is not just because of dad.

I think I need a new strategy.  In fact, I am certain I need a new strategy.  Doctors make me ill, and pdocs drive me insane.   :lol: :lol: :lol:   

I dislike doctors and pdocs too. I am terrified of psych docs because of my abuse. And I have NEVER gotten over the therapeutic abuse I suffered 14 years ago. My t doesn't know if I ever will because he says suffering abuse upon abuse of similar types makes recovery difficult. Issues from that horrible t arise over and over again even now.
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amethyst

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2005, 12:25:41 AM »
(((October)))

I have to agree with Sallying here. Therapy works if you work it. Most therapists worth their salt give their clients assignments. All T's make mistakes. The good ones admit and work to fix them. 

I don't think diagnosis matters much if you know what the problems are and what your goals are. If you find someone that honors your search for answers and that will help you do the footwork necessary to heal, it should not matter what the diagnosis is. I have found that setting goals and taking baby steps to reach them has worked for me...while the therapist supported me through my fear and pain, because new behaviour sometimes cames hard.

I went into therapy for some of the reasons below.
1. I felt terrible about myself and constantly beat myself up. I wanted to learn to be kinder to myself.
2. I was afraid all the time and very self-concious. I wanted to learn to feel more secure in my own skin.
3. I had panic attacks and agoraphobia. I wanted to become calmer and not have to go through that anymore.
4. I was depressed and often had bleak and distressing thoughts. I wanted to feel better and learn some thought-stopping techniques.
5. I had a hard time with intimate relationships. I wanted to learn how to improve my communication skills and not be afraid of letting safe people into my life.
6. I wanted to learn how to be a better parent. I had been parented so badly that I really needed help with this issue. Turned out that I was trying to be the perfect parent to make up for my childhood. I had to learn to be a good enough parent.  :D
7. I had all the garbage from being an incest survivor, including not accepting my sexuality. I needed to heal from that.
8. I was an adult child of alcoholics and grew up in a violent, chaotic home where I was the scapegoat. I needed to learn how to set boundaries, how to get my needs met, how to be honest about my feelings...and to realize that the world wasn't going to end if I asserted myself. 
9. I was a recovering alcoholic. I wanted more than just not drinking, and I knew it was an "inside job."
10. My ex husband was an abusive N and continued the abuse of me, and then my daughter, after I left him. I needed a great deal of help and support to deal with him.
11. I was very enmeshed with my mother and felt guilty because I was not following the family message that I should sacrifice my life for hers.
12. I was a closet self-mutilator and I had a mild eating disorder. I wanted to learn how not to scratch myself, pull my hair, and also how not to starve or binge. (Purging never appealed to me, thank God.)

When I went to therapy, I sat down with this list and told the therapist my goals. It was simple..."these are my problems and this is what I need help with, and I know that it is up to me to work on them, but I need your support to do it."  As therapy progressed, problems got solved and new goals appeared. The first thing we worked on was my fear. I was living in a state of internal terror and impending doom. That had to be dealt with before anything else, but we dealt with it on three levels at the same time...healing the inner self, cognitive and behavioral. 

I have had several diagnoses over the years. The only three that I was really concerned about were my suicidal depression, my ADHD, and my alcoholism...because two of the conditions required drugs, and one of them requires abstinence from mood-altering substances and 12 Step attendance.

I think I was in therapy for about eight months before I asked my diagnosis. It was PTSD and alcoholism. When I went into a profound depression, with suicidal thoughts, I didn't need a shrink or therapist to tell me that I had depression. A few years later, in the course of getting my daughter help for ADHD and Tourette's, I discovered that I might have ADHD. I went to see a great shrink and sure enough, I did. 

October

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2005, 07:12:59 AM »

I think that there are many posts from folks in US, where T industry works completely differently that UK; so they may not be able to understand why you need a definitive diagnosis based on DSM. You probably need that less for your personal info. but more just so that you can be secure that you will avail yourself of T services without being in the danger of having them cut off just, without having to prove to every new T that you are seriously afflicted and need help, and just so that you can get a chance to talk about issues which concern you in therapy.

Much love, Marta


Thanks, Marta.  A lot of what you said made perfect sense, and is explained by the differences between the UK and the US, as you say.

Mental health provision in the UK is the worst provisioned, and worst funded part of the NHS.  While I could stay out of this and go privately, I did, but to be honest that did not offer a better route.  Better coffee making facilities, and better appointed offices, but not actually a better route to recovery.

I read through some of the articles linked to therapy abuse yesterday, and found a lot which resonated with me.  I am - with the help of the responses here - coming to the conclusion that I cannot be helped by spending time with people focussed on pathology, whether mine or their own.  If I could spend half the effort I put into making doctors appointments into, say, attending an evening class and learning a new skill, then that would be far more effective in helping me to learn that I am ok, and have a place to take in the world.

I think that my experiences with my first counsellor were so bad, and have never been unravelled, that they have coloured every subsequent experience.  I try to be trusting, but there is always this knowledge that if I am not careful, they could encourage overdependency, and ultimately send me towards a breakdown, the same as he did.  In this knowledge, I allow no dependency at all, that I can avoid, and trust is almost impossible for the therapist to achieve.  Then the smallest betrayal becomes the same as before, and the whole edifice, built as it is on sand, crumbles to the ground.

The diagnosis thing is not important, except that it is a benchmark by which I can tell how much understanding the other person has.  Generally, if you go to a doctor say with a heart condition, and then are referred to a specialist, you expect him not to say, actually, it is nothing to do with your heart; you have a gastric ulcer.  Then to see another specialist, to be told, no, actually it is diabetes.  This would not be reassuring, if you were struggling to find reasons to trust.   :?

I forget where I read the saying that if you do the same as you have always done, you will get the same as you have always got.  I really strongly feel let down by therapy, and a need to do something different, which is aimed and focussed on those parts of me which are whole and healthy; actually before my first counsellor they were the strongest parts; I was afraid of nothing, and could conquer the world.  I lost all of that - I should not blame him for it, I suppose.  I should just accept that this happened, and now try to find a way out.

Solo mountain climbing may not be sensible, but if it is the only way to go, then sturdy boots, kendal mint cake, and off I go.   :lol: 

October

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2005, 01:13:59 PM »
Do you have a game plan yet?   :)

Marta


Not yet, but I am working on it.  :lol:  Today I cleared out a lot of junk for the charity shop - old books and such that had been lying around all summer waiting to be sorted out.  I think that is indicative of my state of mind generally.

I am due to see the psychiatrist on Oct 11, and will see what he suggests.  After that, who knows?  I have a feeling he will want to discharge me anyway, so perhaps I will pre-empt that and decide to go my own way.

Apparently I have the right to ask for a different psychiatrist, but I am not sure how to do this.  To be honest, I am not even sure that there is an alternative psychiatrist there to see.  Start with a phone call to the office, I dare say.  Maybe I will ring up and ask about that before the appointment, because it is taking so long to get to see him.   :?

After that, writing and painting would seem two places to go.   :?

Sallying Forth

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2005, 06:13:01 PM »
Hi October,
Here is a link to the collage book I mentioned. I used a similar process to start with but found writing, drawing and journaling worked best for me.

http://www.paperclipdolls.com/html/scrapbook.html


Sounds like you have a plan - writing and painting.
The truth is in me.[/color]

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Sallying Forth

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2005, 06:27:41 PM »
I think that my experiences with my first counsellor were so bad, and have never been unravelled, that they have coloured every subsequent experience.  I try to be trusting, but there is always this knowledge that if I am not careful, they could encourage overdependency, and ultimately send me towards a breakdown, the same as he did.  In this knowledge, I allow no dependency at all, that I can avoid, and trust is almost impossible for the therapist to achieve.  Then the smallest betrayal becomes the same as before, and the whole edifice, built as it is on sand, crumbles to the ground.

I went through another t after my N-t before I found someone who knew what the first t had done was abusive. Not only that I pleaded with the first t to help me get on disability and she refused to help me. I was so far gone by the time I left the N-t that I couldn't function at all. The interim t (complicated story) helped me get disability and my current t solidified that. The interim t believed that I couldn't function and wanted to help me. The N-t wanted to institutionalize me against my will.

It wasn't until I got to my current t that I began to deal with what the N-t did. And I'm still dealing with it. :x

Quote
I forget where I read the saying that if you do the same as you have always done, you will get the same as you have always got.

This poem says the same thing:
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/asylum/poem.htm

Autobiography in Five Short Chapters*

By: Portia Nelson

 1.   I walk, down the street.   
    There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.   
    I fall in.   
    I am lost...    I am hopeless.
        It isn't my fault.
    It takes forever to find a way out.
           ...

Quote
Solo mountain climbing may not be sensible, but if it is the only way to go, then sturdy boots, kendal mint cake, and off I go.   :lol: 

Kendal mint cake? I love mint. :)
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

Sallying Forth

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2005, 07:00:19 PM »
Hi October,

Here is another web site for that poem and a good read:

http://www.lessons4living.com/sidewalk_of_life.htm

The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

amethyst

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2005, 12:42:48 AM »

(((Marta)))

Thank you. I can see how the state-run system would lead to abuses of all kinds.

(((October)))

Something that helps alot of people are twelve step meetings. You don't have to share a thing unless you want to. It's a great way to get group support. If you don't like a particular meeting, you can find another one. Despite all my therapy, I still would not be as far along in my healing without the safe group support of 12 Step. You don't have to be an alcoholic or involved with one to partake of the benefits.

I agree that taking classes, writing and painting are great ways to get out in the world.

Bloopsy

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2005, 09:43:05 AM »
if it were not for my 12 step programs, I  feel like I never would have noticed my therapists' inappropriate behavior---- When I saw that even non=proffessionals treated me in a more helpful way than her by respecting boundaries so that I didn't always have to be on defense against judgement /attack/someone else applying their dirty bandage to my wound or whatever , that was a big red flag--- also, i noticed that when other members of the program treated me in the way that she does, it made me feel really invaded and icky feeling.

mum

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Re: Therapy
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2005, 11:24:34 AM »
someone else applying their dirty bandage to my wound
Quote

THAT is a very profound image/statement.  Pretty much describes a lot of mishaps with "healers" that people have had.