N-H sent letter need advice if 12 yr old D should read.

[onlyrenting]

Problem: 99% of the time my D will leave letters from her dad out on the table and I read them with out her seeing me reading them.  He sends her little 1.00 gifts 2-3 times a week.  Today he sent her two letters 1 had a little toy without a letter the other had a letter Im concerned about.

This letter is a direct attack on his brother. He is telling our 12 year old how her uncle is having an affair.
He explains he would never tell his kids, but he wants our D  to know this is the real reason his brother does not like him. His brother does not want anyone to find out and treats him mean because of his knowing about the affair.

Kids will be kids and if my D knows this she may want to tell and I am so mad at my H right now I could scream!

He continues to say the most negitive things about me in the letters and I try not to let on I know what he is saying about me.
I will say how nice it is he sent her something if she shows me.

One of the letters last week ask her to contact him he must speak with her regarding the court date in Oct.
I need his permission to have her continue with the T, next week I should have this approved with the courts.
I only get his rath if I need him to respond, so I will have the judge help me with this.

Should I let her read the letter?

[longtire]

OR,
In my opinion, that subject matter is completely inappropriate to discuss with a 12YO child, unless they are directly affected and MUST be informed.  Even then it should be approached in a much more general way.  I urge you not to have your daughter read it if you can.  Definitely save it for the judge though. 

P.S. It sounds like B.S. anyway.  If STBXH knows about brothers affair, you'd think brother would be sucking up to keep him from telling anyone, not being angry with him about knowing.  Sheesh.  It is like spiral upon spiral of out-of-touchness from him.

[David P]

I seems to me that he is attempting to recruit your daughter to form some sort of sick alliance for his own purposes. I agree with Longtire . This stuff is adult business and it is not the business of a 12 yr old. because he cannot see( of does not care) that he is in violation of her emotional boundaries it is up to you to filter all this shit out. Tough break, but that seems to be the way it has to be.
David P.

[mudpuppy]

Hi OR,
Is this the same brother your stbx was accusing you of having an affair with? If so you know what the next letter will say.

In any event I'm with Long on this one. She's only twelve. I think if it were me I, in fact I know if it were me, I'd tell her I'm reading every letter he sends first to see if its appropriate for her. Your job is to protect her, whether she likes you for it or not. I know its a fine line not to alienate her, but reading a bunch of lies from him is a pretty good way for her to be alienated from you also.
I can't believe there would be repurcussions in court for you making sure your daughter is protected from a certifiable grade a nut. If anybody is trying to alienate her affections its him ragging on you.

mud

[onlyrenting]

Long, David, and Mudd,

I have the letter and will claim I never saw it. She opened the other letter and questioned why there was not a some type of note with her gift.

Long, I think of you and how you are doing. How is your daughter? 

that subject matter is completely inappropriate, 

I was so mad at him, to be so hateful and willing to hurt his brother kids, knowing my D would someday think about telling her cousin. I don't know that she would but she would not know what to do with such painful news. She would be the tool to use and then everyone would be mad at her for saying something


Mudd: YES

this the same brother your stbx was accusing you of having an affair with

I was told he quit say this, after no one was paying attention.

I

know its a fine line not to alienate her, but reading a bunch of lies from him is a pretty good way for her to be alienated from you also.

Thanks Mud this is how I was feeling about what his true goal is. This is a fine line, I have a note to the judge/mediator to review some of his letters.
I agree about checking his letters, I have looked at most all of them most are just hello. He is too selfabsorbed to ask if she needs something.
This letter tells her how he may never see her again, he needs more surguries. All negative stuff!

He seals up his letters with a gray tape thinking this will secure the letter. Gray tape if you peal it back it won't tear the paper. Im able to seal the letter back up and she can't tell, even if I break the seal I can put the gray tape back. I check the letters like this one but most of the time even the negative stuff I may let her read it.
If I need to I will indirectly talk about the letter later.

This one is just so beyond appropriate, I will be talking to the court on the 4th. He will be thinking his bomb shell has hit and will come back to the scene of the crime. My D will have no idea about the letter if he ask. The 4th is tuesday maybe he will think the letter is late.
He had sent her another letter last week, wanting to talk with her making sure I would not be around.
I was expecting him to be desparate to speak with her before court. She could e-mail him or call him but she doesn't. She has changed her e-mail a dozen times so he can't keep up with her. He writes her but she would rather e-mail. 

David
Very perceptive. I protect her more than she will ever know. N's can sence things so I try not to tell her too much to protect her.  I think he wants to hurt his brother for helping me and willing to use his own daughter to acheive is evil goals. So sad and I want to tell him how evil he is, but I will let the judge tell him.
I will make sure I have a plan set with the court to notify them with contempt charges if he continues.

I seems to me that he is attempting to recruit your daughter to form some sort of sick alliance for his own purposes

Another question, should I tell his brother incase something ever comes up in the future?

OR

[longtire]

Long, I think of you and how you are doing. How is your daughter?

OR, I had dinner with my D last night and then she came over to my place and we talked and I helped her with some of her math homework.  She came over again tonight unannounced.   That's a good thing because I keep telling her that she can be here any time.  (She has to call me first if anyone else is with her.)  I keep thinking I need to talk about everything going on with her, but then when we're together it just seems easy to talk and have a good time.  So, I'm just laying low and I'll see if she wants to discuss things later on.  She even told me that she is ready to start thinking about coming to spend the night here.  I told her that would be great whenever she was ready.  Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I'm happy that we are getting closer again.  I love my daughter very much and worry about how all this is affecting her.

On your issue, I say protect your daughter and read all her letters if you have to.  Your STBXH is consistently so far over the line he doesn't appear to really perceive anyone else.  Certainly not what they need or what is helpful or hurtful to them.  I'm sorry that you have to take the extra burden of that while having to deal with your own personal portion of crap from him at the same time.  Still, you are doing a great job.  Keep up the good work and protect your precious D.

[mum]

I will simply echo the rest of the ideas here, OR.
Your H is discussing this very innappropriate adult topic with your 12 year old. That alone should give you no reticence about reading any and every communication from him to her.
The judge will NOT admonish you for "interfering" in that relationship (except in a positive way) if that letter comes forward.
So what if the ex figures out the letter was confiscated? Say nothing....again, let the legal end take care of that.
I am so sorry about this. I know how hard it is to "bite your tongue" when it comes to letting the children have their own relationship with their dad....but this letter exemplifies that comminications from him are NOT in her best interest at all times.
Do what you must.
The only thing that is sacred (IMO...and this not even always) is a kids' own writings to themselves (as in a journal/diary). Anything from someone else TO your child IS your business!

[Marta]

OR,

God, what a jerk. So sorry for what you have to deal with. I am glad that he is giving you timely ammunition for the court though. I agree 101% that the subject matter is totally inappropriate for the child. I see that you are dealing with the crap with admirable alertness and getting a judge/mediator to review his letters, which is just perfect. How about getting a locked mailbox, so daughter does not have first access to the mail? As she grows older, it is going to be harder and harder for her to not open mail addressed to her. Besides, most likely once ex finds out that his letters are being censored, he will use email or any other way to contact her.

My mom did many things of this kind. My twelve-year old sister was also told about an affair my father supposedly was having. Her primary motivation was to ensure that (a) whoever was her enemy became my enemy too; (b) as David mentioned, to forge a sick alliance between her and me, our little secret. (c) to alienate and isolate me from my support system. For example, when I was eighteen, once of our family friends was taking much interest in me and spared a lot of time to help me with studies, invite me to her family gatherings etc. Mom “innocently” told me that this friend thought that I was mentally ill and may need help, which is why she was going out of her way to be nice to me. I was tremendously hurt by this disclosure and immediately distanced from someone who obviously sensed something was wrong and genuinely wanted to help me.

In your case, since his own brother is on your side, it makes Stbx look pretty bad in your daughter’s eyes. Therefore he wants to devalue the brother and portray him as an unfaithful liar so that he everything else the brother may have to say re. the divorce can also be devalued by the daughter and Stbx can redeem his own image in his daughter’s eyes. I think he will most likely pass on the info. to the daughter in a meeting or whatever. Consider this a dry run. If it works, the next alliance he will try to forge will be against you….

OR:
have the letter and will claim I never saw it.

Not a good idea to lie to her. She is bound to find out the truth, especially since you’ll use it in court, and it’ll undermine your authority with her and crack the trust. I’d casually tell her that the letter contained adult material inappropriate for her. Or better still, let her T deal with this one.

Is your brother-in-law really having the affair? If not, inappropriate as it is, I’d show the letter to D and have brother-in-law’s wife talk to D about it, so that you put an end once and for all about lies of this kind, and reduce the chances that D will believe Stbx in future. Otherwise you have this sword hanging over your head.

OR:
Another question, should I tell his brother incase something ever comes up in the future?

Definitely. I would contact him right now and nip this game in the bud, or else the lies may get out of hand in a blink. I’ve found that when harmless third parties are used as ploys by Ns, the best way to prevent further misunderstandings is to expose them right there and then, as a proactive measure, to prevent the misunderstanding from spiraling.

OR:
This letter tells her how he may never see her again, he needs more surguries.

My mom used the same tactic. She’s been on the verge of death for the last 35 years. Objective is to arouse guilt and abandonment anxiety in D. I would try to mention this casually and humorously, and somehow indirectly get the point across to D as to how her father is prone to histrionics and exaggeration etc. If necessary, point her to medical articles re. prostate cancer or whatever he may have, and show how high the survival rates are, so D can learn to examine factual evidence for herself.

OR:
He will be thinking his bomb shell has hit

I would not underestimate him. Once he finds out the extent to which you are willing to go to protect the daughter, he will raise the stakes, cruelty of his tactics will escalate, and you will be dragged into having to deal with all that. I am so sorry that you have to put up with all this.

Longtire, your relationship with your daughter seems very sweet. I think building a loving and healthy relationship is the greatet gift you can give her. Don't think that you have to verbally thrash out every issue all the time; somethings are better conveyed with a look or a hug.

OR, I think you are doing a super-duper job of dealing with this nightmare, and seem to be in control. You have a T lined up for your daughter, have your in-laws on your side, are having a mediator review his letters, and are maintaining a good relationship with your daughter on top of everything else. Power to you!

Hugs, Marta

[October]

Hiya OR 

I agree this is not a subject for a 12 year old to read about in a letter from her dad.  What was he thinking of??

I have had to protect my daughter from her dad's weird and wonderful letters in the past - and I have even protected him from some of her angrier letters too, by 'forgetting' to post them.  I think this is part of being a responsible parent, and everything you write shows that you are thinking of your d and her needs, rather than anyone else's, which is exactly right.

[onlyrenting]

Marta, Oct. Mum, Long.  Thank you for your time.


Marta,
 

How about getting a locked mailbox, so 

I have the only key to the box.

He may be having an affair it may all be true. I could blow this off like its a brother thing to think this is true.
Problem if she tells her cousin how hurtful that would be if the wife was asked about this.....it just stinks!

I’d show the letter to D and have brother-in-law’s wife talk to D about

Not a good idea to lie to her. She is bound to find out the truth, especially since you’ll use it in court, and it’ll undermine your authority with her and crack the trust. I’d casually tell her that the letter contained adult material inappropriate for her. Or better still, let her T deal with this one.

Today I faxed over this letter to the court, they should have enough time by tuesday to review and make note of the content. I wrote a cover letter explaining my concerns. I did say my D did not know about the letter, and I know my ex would find a way to reach her with his distructive message. I reminded them she is being used as a tool by the ex and they should be aware of his intentions. I admitted I intercepted the letter fearing his desparation from reading prior letters about the upcoming court date. 

I'm having a difficult time with the thought of her reading this letter, my ex may come back with questions about the letter, in my mind I feel ready to take what ever back lash from him. By that time the court will have already reviewed what he has to say. They can tell me not to read her mail in the future but for now it's the mother bear out with all claws. Im hitting the dumb mule with the biggest stick I can find.

 I know it would be a lie to say I never got the letter and someday I will show it to her, maybe. I would want to bring up parts of the letter to see where her head is.
There is more in the letter that wreaks of confusion about his intentions, saying he never lies, how if he dies he has her in his will, how she is the only thing that allows him to think about getting better.
The whole letter is so full of PROJECTIONS?  He lies over and over but says he NEVER lies. is that projection?

OCT

What was he thinking of??

Marta  said it best

the divorce can also be devalued by the daughter and Stbx can redeem his own image in his daughter’s eyes. I think he will most likely pass on the info. to the daughter in a meeting or whatever. Consider this a dry run. If it works, the next alliance he will try to forge will be against you….

I fear his attack on me will be to hurt our D. Im so gald his health problems and distance is keeping him away.

Mum:

I know how hard it is to "bite your tongue" when it comes to letting the children have their own relationship with their dad....but this letter exemplifies that comminications from him are NOT in her best interest at all times.

Mum, I find these N's do not play by the rules and always the first to jump on those that even think about treating them the way they talk and treat others.  I don't want to react and the courts may say
"You married the jerk and had a child now communicate, leave us out of it"

Im so glad for this site, I wish I had found the help years ago. Well I know now and can only move forward the best I know how. 


Long,  When I read this I wanted to cry, I hope someday my D will know a man who loves his kids and shows them the kind of love you show your D. ( you see why you are my hero) ?

 

I had dinner with my D last night and then she came over to my place and we talked and I helped her with some of her math homework

I remember last December when I did not understand what an N was. You nailed it!
How far I have come to learn and understand the nightmare I was in.

he doesn't appear to really perceive anyone else.  Certainly not what they need or what is helpful or hurtful to them.

 
Thank you all so much.  OR




 

[mudpuppy]

Hi OR,

He lies over and over but says he NEVER lies. is that projection?

No, its just another big fat lie. He's projecting when he accuses you of lying.

I know it would be a lie to say I never got the letter and someday I will show it to her, maybe.

Can't you tell her you got it but its not fit for her to read?

 

for now it's the mother bear out with all claws. Im hitting the dumb mule with the biggest stick I can find.

It doesn't work too well hitting dumb mules in the head, that's why they call 'em dumb. Sit down for awhile with a knife and make your stick nice and pointy then break it off in the end opposite of his head.

mud

[Marta]

OR,

WHat a terrible situation you are caught in! I really feel for you. You are so justified in feeling that your D will some day blurt it out to her cousins, and then so many will be hurt by that. On top of everything else, then your D will be held responsible for all that.

I only meant that if it the affair thing is a lie, I'd enlist sister-in-law's help to expose it and put an end to such tactics. If there is some chance that it is true, I'd tell D that you had seen the letter and it contained inappropriate material for her to read so you were not giving it to her.

I only worry that Stbx is going to pass on his message any way. If it becomes known to D that you had intentionally held this info back without teling her, it might close a door in that she may not feel comfortable coming out upfront and discussing with you this matter, especially if her father asks her not to because you may get mad or whatever. That way, he'd create a crack in your relationship with D and make every effort to pass his filth through that crack, like sewer stench. Then she'd be in possession of this explosive info anyway without anyone to turn to for guidance as to how to deal with it.

Can't D's therapist help in dealing with this situation?

I'm definitely not proselytizing about witholding information or whatever else you need to do to protect your daughter. I am only thinking about it as a battle strategy, that N would use this opportunity to slander you to D and she'd become confused. Anyway, sharpen your mother claws and do what you think is the best. As you say, it's a good idea to see what the courts have to say about it and go from there.

At least with N parents, one can cut off the ties if one wants to; with an Nx who's father of your child, you have to deal with so much on an ongoing basis. I really feel for you.

all the way behind you and rooting for you, Marta

[onlyrenting]

Mud, thanks so much for the funny........Im wiping the tears from my eyes.


My EX will wonder when and how much damage  he has caused. When he finds out there was no letter he will have to rethink how he will get his message to her. He will have to wonder for now if the letter is on the way and should he wait before he says too much. He may stay away for a while thinking he has done his evil deed.

This will allow some time and delay  the impact of the hurt he wanted to apply.
By Tuesday I should have information from the courts and how I can put a stop to more of the same type of harrassment. If the whole world finds out she did not get this one  letter then that's ok. Its not my first choice to do this but I feel I need some time to consider whats the best thing to do.

Let the judge tell me she would be ok to read this letter. If my H finds another way to tell her hurtful things the courts are aware he seeks to communicate inapporprate subjects. I hope they make suggestions on the type of communication allowed, they may say I have authority to read the letters and tell my EX she needs to comply with this rule. Maybe he will stop  like he did with the e-mails to me. Now the judge has questionalble letters from him to his child and his wife, he again has been exposed, N's hate that.

She should be able to continue in the next few weeks with her T to help her deal with his futurre  letters. For now the T she was seeing had to stop  unitl I have full legal custody written in stone from the judge.  Now I must have permission from him and he will not communicate in a nice way so I don't bother with him.

Thanks Mud for the laugh.

[Marta]

OR:
 I feel I need some time to consider whats the best thing to do.

I know what you mean. Ns put up in wierdest situations out of the blue, and then we are forced to deal with it. Of course you need some time to think over what is best for her. If you get a chance, check out this article re. custody situations with abusers. All the best for Tuesday!!!

http://www.wcwonline.org/wrn/lundy.pdf

[miaxo]

OR

You would be doing the right thing by not letting your daughter read his letters until you have opportunity to look at them.
Hold on to these letters they will serve you well in the future.

Judges are all about protecting the children so I can't see how this would backfire on you. I just found out that in my state that  the CP has the right to tape record all phone conversations child/children have with the NonCustodial P....if you have reason to believe that such person is saying inappropriate comments to the child/children.

Good luck.

PS I think the entire thing about the BIL is a bunch of baloney.  It's his pathetic attempt to say to his daughter, "See he's the bad guy...not me....I'm the good guy and that's why he doesn't like me. 
Can't wait to hear how he explains to your daughter why the rest of the world takes issue with him. Should be interesting and entertaining. 

Keep screening those letters, girl!

Mia