tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?

[mudpuppy]

Hey Vunil,

I don't know if you realize this but you are almost perfectly describing a Karpman drama triangle.

Dad's the persecutor.
Mom's the resuer.
And you're the victim.

Maybe you could do a little reading on that too. Might explain the dynamics of whats going on with your parents better.
Take care.

mud

[vunil]

Never heard of the Karpman triangle-- I'll take a look!

Plucky, I agree with you and that's why I'm mad, exactly, well put.

Cadbury, you are SO right that this kind of N behavior is pervasive, both in pregnancy and early motherhood.  People are just very interested in giving advice, even if they have NO idea what they are talking about and/or what they are saying is so obvious that anyone would know it.  It is the strangest phenomenon. It's as if pregnancy and childbirth make a woman seem so weakened or something that now she is this idiot to be spoken down to and dominated.  I do think some of that is what is going on.  It seems to be a human response, along with the more wonderful response that many folks have of just wanting to be supportive and helpful.  In fact, I've noticed that folks do one or the other-- become super-nurturing (like the folks on this board have been for me, which has been wonderful) or become super-bossy.  And it has been difficult to predict who would become what.  People I barely know have been absolutely there for me and good friends have all but disappeared, popping up now and then with really irrelevant advice that sort of lives in the world of childless life but is silly for me now (e.g., do pilates! take chinese herbs!  make sure to get massages and pedicures!  Meanwhile I am recovering from a c-section in my pajamas with a baby at the breast wondering when in the next few days I'll get a shower.)

Anyway, back to topic   my mom did ask me to forgive her and of course I did.  She is here now.  It is awkward but at least we'll work through it.  I have a feeling it won't work that way with my dad, but I am realizing he is the N part of the partnership (maybe) and he may get in the way of my relationship with her-- maybe it's best if he doesn't show up for awhile (he didn't come to my place today-- I think I am supposed to feel that as a rebuke but it feels like relief to me).  I just can't stop being a little bit afraid of him, always waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Children of neglect always have that sense, I think, that inability to trust completely.  It sucks... I will make sure my beautiful daughter knows better.

[vunil]

WOW-- I just read about that triangle and it sounds exactly right. It explains one very important thing, too-- how "out of it" and "not me" I have felt in this situation.  In life I am not at all a victim-- I am in fact more successful than my parents are, in terms of career, relationships (they have trouble maintaining friendships and have lots of bumpy interactions), whatever.  NO ONE thinks of me as a victim or treats me that way and heaven knows I don't, either.  So being put in that position, or expected to play that position, has felt awful.  I don't want to be cooked for!  I don't want to be catered to!  Yes, I have to have some help, but not HELP in the victim sense.  I want to run my own household.  My mom keeps saying she has to run my household for me, that there is SO MUCH to do, that I am incapable of handling it.  It has felt odd to me because what is there to handle right now?  All I am doing is feeding the baby and sleeping, and handling my work (on the computer-- she doesn't know about it).

So in playing this role for them I feel awful, and the triangle stays where it is. My dad pops by to be judgmental or angry or to make big sweeping statements that contradict whatever I say.  In general, the whole triangle tells me two things:  you don't know what you are doing/thinking, and we know better and have to take care of you.

Neither of which is true.

Wow, again, thanks.  I am going to read more, and also recommend that David P. read up on it.  It seems relevant to his family, too.

[mudpuppy]

Hey vunil,

Here's the disgusting thing about these triangles. The perpetrator often makes himself out to be the victim even as he is abusing the real victim. So the rescuer usually ends up siding with the poor little perp.

What a sick game, and I must credit Stormy for putting me onto this dynamic.
I think she started a thread on it on this board and the 'what helps' board.

Hope you can take your leg of the triangle and leave them to just be an obtuse angle on their own.
A little geometry humor there. Sorry, pretty bad.

mud

[mum]

Vunil.....I need to do some enormous primal scream thing for you.....aAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!
I cannot believe your nightmare of a breastfeeding story!!!!  How DARE she!  And I'm not sure who said it, but I believe there is an enormous amount of fear and threat for some others (like your mom) when mothers breastfeed.  Those who are insecure see the bond that is found there as a threat to whatever....(they didn't breastfeed, they feel they are not good mothers, they don't like anything they didn't do....you name it).

I just wish people could live and let live. You are an adult, you have a child, you are not a child, you make choices as an adult that need to be respected and honored.

I am glad you can "let it go" and allow your mom to help you....but do you really feel good about it? I hope so.
Frankly, I don't exactly buy her tale about not wanting the baby to cry (well, I do think she didn't like the crying, and that she felt bad). I just think it was another "poor me" excuse for doing things her way, especially when they were so very much against your wishes.  And, in her "defense" I think she is not the slightest bit aware of what she does, or what drives her actions....life is one big emotional explosion after another for some people....and they are "never responsible" for any of it, ironically enough. 

I pray the baby got back on the breast without much problem.
I'm sorry your current physical and emotional state is being exploited.
I also know how hard it is to confront 1) a parent and 2) an N who just doesn't hear anything they don't want to......and post partum on top of it.
So all in all, keeping your head above water....you are doing just great. This too, shall pass. Savor the good stuff....keep boundaries and let the other crap go (as in flush it!).
Hang in there...breathe.  Keep that baby close.
(((((((((((Vunil))))))))))

[vunil]

Thanks, Mum.  Mom came back today but Dad didn't come-- and when I looked in the garage he had thrown everything into the center of the garage as if to say "ha!", clearly in a big temper tantrum.  I am glad to know that my father is 5 years old... 

Honestly, you know how I feel about it now that I've had some time to ponder it and dealt with my mom here today, on pins and needles, both of us not feeling that comfortable?  How I feel is that I wish I had not had them come. I wish they had visited in the usual way parents do-- just a visit to meet the baby-- and that I had paid for help otherwise. It would have been easier on me and easier on them.  I am really REALLY really tired of my family's dynamic.  I don't live anywhere near them on purpose.  I just see them sometimes, and that is true of my whole family.  Some I never see.  I just don't want to deal with it any more-- I didn't choose it, I managed to escape it, and I am done with it.  I wish this experience had not been tainted by it.  Too much of my life has been tainted by it-- it just doesn't work.  Il ne marche pas.

I am going to hire someone to help me and find a way to let my parents off the hook, nicely, so that we can go back to our separate lives, which honestly I think we all prefer.  I can't stand the way I feel in this ridiculous dynamic, I can't stand that weird pull that narcissism has where no matter what, good times or bad, it is always about them and everything in the room gets sucked into their neediness like it or not, where I never ever feel comfortable.  It doesn't matter if they are declaring what will be, if they are feeling hurt over something I did/said, if they are giving to me or taking from me, I NEVER feel safe and relaxed-- I am always aware of being somehow slighted (or victimized) or not heard or explicitly insulted. 

I've decided something:  If I don't feel comfortable because of something about me, if I am just an angry person (angry at them) if I can't get over something others might get over, if they are being completely and utterly loving and reasonable and I can't live with it or accept it because of some flaw in me... Ok.  Whatever.  It is still true that I feel uncomfortable and guilty and not myself.  It doesn't mean I don't love them-- I do.  I just am done with the dynamic.  I can't stand it any more.  I really can't. It is too uncomfortable.  And I don't care at all why it is uncomfortable.  I have a right to be happy and to feel myself-- I do in the rest of my life.

I see why people do cut others out of their lives-- I won't do that right now, but I can see that it is possible to do this just out of preference, not necessarily out of anger.  After awhile it just gets to be a waste of energy.  And if I am misreading everything because of my past, well, they have had the opportunity to atone for my past and they haven't.  And in the end, people should get to be around people who make them feel happy.  I wish my parents made me feel happy, but they don't.  I don't think I make them feel happy, either.  But even if I did, what do I owe them (or anyone?).  I think I owe a lot less than I have been led to believe.

Thanks for listening I think I'm making may way OUT of the victim corner of that triangle.

[Gail]

HI Vunil,

Thanks for your post to me.  You said that trying to figure out why xBF would send a particular e-mail would drive me nuts and you were so right about that.   A perfect crazy making behavior.

I think there's a bigger lesson in this for both of us and that is this:  If someone is constantly causing us to second guess what their intentions are, or make us wonder if we reacted the right way, or if we could have handled a situation better, that person is one with whom a safe, comfortable relationship is impossible. 

Learning about narcissism has helped me with something I've been thinking about for awhile, but didn't have a name for it.  Some people have the ability to perceive situations correctly, respond adaptively, and have that gift of empathy for others, and some people just don't.  Those that don't can make us doubt ourselves and our own perceptions.  And for those of us who are susceptible to that self doubt, those people are poison to us.

So, I think you are totally right to have your parents leave, and the sooner the better.  It almost doesn't matter why you feel the way you do around them.  It's energy draining and joy sapping, and you don't have to take it anymore!  !!!

Please forgive if I sound like I'm lecturing.  I'm preaching to myself, too!

Gail

[vunil]

Gail-- you are right.  It would be one thing if I found I felt uncomfortable around everyone, if my reaction to all people was the same.  But it isn't-- my reaction to my parents (and the way I act around them, too) is unique.  It must have something to do with them and how they treat me.  I have often wished I had an ally to look at them with me, a partner perhaps who could validate how I feel.  My siblings can provide a little of that, but they are so different from me that it isn't really that helpful, especially since of course all of the child-parent relationships are different.  I sort of crave someone to provide that outside perspective.  Maybe someday I'll find that.  In the meantime, I have to just trust how I feel.

For years I didn't trust this instinct with men. I *think* I am done with the really terrible NPD men I used to crave, because finally I trust myself when I have that uncomfortable feeling, that off balance sense of being disapproved of (combined with this strong desire to win the approval and relief when I am able to do it-- that addiction to the positive feedback that is hard to come by).  At least I can say I haven't partaken of that particular addiction in a long time.  I am having a harder time trusting my instincts with my parents, because I only have one set of them and somehow that makes it difficult-- it's not as if I can apply what I learned from this set to the next set   Everything about the relationship is unique.

[Sela]

Dear Vunil:

Just read through this whole thread and first.....I'm so sorry that your parents are making this so hard for you.  They should be helping, not upsetting you, respecting your wishes, not battling with you about them, giving you peace and time to rest, not causing this confusion and using your energy to try to resolve it.  I'm so sorry but I agree that these people are not acting to your benefit right now.  I'm glad you've decided to to hire someone to help you.

and find a way to let my parents off the hook, nicely, so that we can go back to our separate lives

is very generous of you, considering many people would be tempted to just tell them straight up to ship out pronto, no worry to their feelings.  You really are a very considerate and loving daughter and I'm so sorry that your parents do not recognise this, acknowledge it and value it.

Something struck me when you wrote this:

... I am done with the really terrible NPD men I used to crave, because finally I trust myself when I have that uncomfortable feeling, that off balance sense of being disapproved of (combined with this strong desire to win the approval and relief when I am able to do it-- that addiction to the positive feedback that is hard to come by...

Could this be a result of what you crave but never received from your parents?  Might you be reliving it with men....trying to resolve the need/s your parents didn't fulfill??

It seems to me you have uncomfortable feelings around your parents, that they send you off balance and that you get a sense of being constantly disapproved of and possibly you have a strong desire to win their approval (as any daughter would) but there is no relief because you have not been able to do it.  Everything you do, in their eyes, is not approved, acknowledged, valued.

Dear Vunil........you are doing a fantastic job!!  You have expressed how much you wish to be the kind of parent you didn't have...for your sweet baby girl (oops!   Forgot to say:

 CONGRATULATIONS!!!!  YIPEEEEEEEE!  YOU DID IT!!  YOU BROUGHT A BEAUTIFUL MIRACLE INTO THIS WORLD!!!  WAY TO GO VUNIL!!!).
I mean it......you are going to be a wonderful mother.  You have shown great patience and consideration and DESIRE to be a wonderful mother.....all absolutely necessary for that to happen.
And it will happen......regardless of their lack of approval, which in the long run Vunil, do you really need it?  I know I would want it.....want to be acknowledged and approved etc but they are JUST NOT CAPABLE of approving your mothering, any more than they are of your thriving and surviving in this world, and of your many wonderful contributions and good traits.  You are thriving and surviving Vunil!!  You will continue to try and succeed at mothering your beautiful baby daughter and you WILL acknowledge and value her, nurture and love her, and care for her the best way you possibly can.

I wish I could instill the deep feeling of being loved and valued in you, that your parents SHOULD have instilled, but I don't think I can.  Your child will give you plenty of that, as she grows and you will return those very great and powerful feelings.  Maybe you can let your parents drift off into their own world while you focus on that of your darling child and your own.  That is a wonderful thing!

Stick to your guns girl.  Don't let these people mess things up any further.  Send them on their way and get on with raising your lovely daughter, and continue doing a better job than them (which you are already doing because you CAN stand your child crying....if it is reasonable at the time.  Infants have no other way of releasing tension and will cry when they need to and you WILL stand it and not put YOUR NEEDS  ahead of your infant's, like your mother did and still does... with not just you but now....your child.  You WILL do a fantastic job compared to that!!  I just know it!!!

((((((((((((((Vunil))))))))))))))))

Sela

[mum]

Vunil. In your last post you mentioned how very "wrong" ( my word) things feel with your parents. 
It reminds me of a song (can't remember who sings it) where the refrain is basically...."if it hurts this  much...IT"S NOT LOVE!!"
Love is NOT uncomfortable. Love is not defensive, accusatory, guilty, shameful, difficult or ANYTHING negative. Relationships are tough, but true love, parental or romantic is NOT a negative feeling. Confusing maybe, but when one party feels bad on a regular basis because of the person who they "love" or who "loves" them.....Well, plain and simple...it's not my definition of LOVE. And we all get to define it for ourselves.
Mine does not involve a raftload of pain.  I used to think that (that's why I married a few N's!) but I know better now.

So this visit of your parent's although difficult, was not a waste or a mistake. You learned SOOOOO much! Now you know ( a lot)

Keep keeping those healthy boundaries.  You have a VERY lucky baby to have been born to such an amazing mom.

[Plucky]

Hi Vunil,
how's it going?   How's the baby?  Are they gone yet?
Just a short comment.  In many of your posts, you sound as if you are afraid or uncomfortable criticising your parents, or thinking ill of them, or not being appreciative enough of the things they do to 'help' you.

I understand this.  You want to be fair and grateful.  I was brought up to be a nice girl too.

I don't know the whole story, but the one thing that I can not swallow is that they let you be molested and then forced you to sweep it under the rug.

Maybe this is a bad time to start to process all of this.  But to me, no matter what good things they may have done, or in your case, somewhat good mixed in with doubtful or clearly bad things, nothing could ever make up for that.

If you kicked them out and never spoke to them again, if you took all their money and made them live in a shelter, if you demounced them to the secret police and had them tortured, nothing would be sufficient punishment or payback for that.

They somehow have you thinking that you need to be grateful and even handed in dealing with them.  Too bad those highminded ideals don't apply to them.

Being a single parent is a challenge, and you need to do whatever works for you.  But at least don't hoodwink yourself into thinking that you need to be so grateful to them and so careful not to do anything unfair, uneven, unreasonable, to them.  They do not have the same standards when it comes to interacting with you.  And they never will.

Your mother may be better than your dad, but doesn't that make her an enabler?  And when they play good cop, bad cop, aren't they still both cops?

Plucky