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Boundary setting vs attempts to change the N

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catlover:
Thank you so much to Dr. Grossman for this message board, and to the people who share on it.  I have been reading it voraciously for hours at a time yesterday and today.  As I wrote in another brief post, I began seeing a therapist recently because of my inability to make decisions or trust my own judgement, and during our last session (the night before last) she said my mom has a “narcissistic personality.”  I looked that up on the web the next day and was amazed and relieved to find a ton of stuff that I could relate to, especially on this message board.  I am so relieved to finally have some understanding of what has been going on all this time (my 34 years of life) with my mother, and that I’m not the only one who has endured this craziness.  (I also became panicked about the possibility that my husband is a narcissist, and/or that I am one too – but that’s another story.)  I have been in a 12-step recovery program for two years, and someone once described at a meeting that her mother had been diagnosed as psychotic.  I said that it would be a lot easier if my mother had been diagnosed that way, because then it would be clear what I was dealing with.  But now I find out that there IS a diagnosable mental illness, and even though it isn’t psychosis, it validates that SHE is CRAZY, not me!!!

My therapist gave me an assignment to develop a realistic vision for my relationship with my mother that involves protecting myself, using boundaries.  I have been VERY impressed with the ways people on this message board have described using boundaries with their N mothers.  However, I feel that I have something of a dilemma (or maybe I’m actually lucky) because my N mother is more than happy to set up gigantic boundaries between us, by completely cutting off contact with me at the slightest “provocation” (and you all know that when I say “provocation” I mean simply not handling her with kid gloves).  I guess this is because years ago she discarded me when at 13 I refused to be her source of N Supply for awhile, and she quickly developed another source in the form of my two half brothers, who are now 16 and 18 years old.  I feel like I am being a bit narcissistic here, but I feel the need to tell my story now that I have found a place where I know it will be understood!!  I’m also looking for some feedback on the “cutoff” versus “boundaries” issue, so I hope you will bear with the following story.

My mother was 19 when I was born, and, as she told me many times while I was growing up, I was the result of my father putting a hole in his rubber to force her to marry him, since abortions weren’t legal then (as she has also pointed out several times).  He left when I was 2 years old, never to return or provide any financial support.  Who knows whether he would have done this if my mother wasn’t so nutso, but in any event I was never allowed to care that he abandoned us, because my caring would reflect poorly on her.

My mother was determined not to let me “ruin her life.”  She wanted to go to college to prove to her alcoholic father that she was “smart,” as he had told her countless times that she was stupid (which, in many ways she IS, but that is emotionally not mentally).  So, that’s what she did, never mind that she had a child who might need clothing, toys, attention, or a safe place to live (I always at least had enough to eat – thank God for school lunches!!).  

I have described our poverty to people: how we lived in crummy neighborhoods where I was afraid to leave the house, how other kids made fun of my clothes.  But what I could never describe or explain fully (until now!) was how this was all made much worse by the fact that my mother showed no sympathy whatsoever.  If I said something about needing clothes, she would scream at me “What, do you want to be a fashion plate?!” or “What do you think I am, money bags?!”  If she was in a really good mood she might say “You shouldn’t care what those kids think.  They’re obviously shallow if they’re judging you by your appearance and you shouldn’t want to be their friends anyway” (i.e., your feelings are stupid).  I’ve always felt like such a piece of crap when other people who grew up in poverty (usually people on TV or autobiographical movies/novels) said, “Oh, we were poor, but that didn’t matter, we were happy,” because it DID matter, and I WASN’T happy, so maybe I WAS shallow.  But, as I said, it was the lack of caring that made it infinitely worse.

It’s interesting that one of my mother’s ways of being “unique” is different from most narcissists that I’ve read about in that she made a huge point of NOT caring about appearances.  I just this minute realized that being very concerned about APPEARING not to care about appearances may just be another form of being concerned about appearances!!

I read on another website that children are often used to settle the narcissist’s “score” with the world, and that was certainly the case with my mother.  I became an extension of her “smartness.”  She was so proud of what an intelligent, precocious, well-behaved little girl she had, which proved how smart and what a great mother she was!!!  Also, it proved that she didn’t need my lousy, no good father; she could do a great job without him.  I’ve often thought I shouldn’t feel so bad (i.e., what’s wrong with me that I feel so bad) because my mother didn’t insult me; she didn’t tell me I was stupid or ugly or whatever, and she didn’t physically abuse me.  If she HAD done these things, it would have meant that she was a bad mother, and one of her points of pride has always been what a GREAT mother she is, despite all the hardships she’s had to endure, blah blah blah, wah wah.  She has said to me on numerous occasions that she just can’t understand why I am so unsure of myself and why I’ve put up with verbal and emotional abuse from boyfriends (she recognizes others’ abuse of me but not her own – amazing!) because, after all, she always told me how smart and capable I was.  I’ve wanted to scream, “But you TREATED me like a piece of crap – like my feelings and needs were NOTHING!!  I’m supposed to believe what you said over what you always DID?!!”

Well, here are some other examples of what she DID (as opposed to what she said):
- Brought a series of live-in boyfriends and one-night stands through the house, with no concern for whether I might get attached to the boyfriends or disturbed by the strangers I could hear having sex with her in the next room
- Left me with inappropriate “hippie” babysitters who had sex in front of me
- Sat me in the back seat on long winding roads and smoked cigarettes when she knew I was carsick; would rather let me feel sick for hours and throw up than spend a couple bucks on Dramamine
- Wouldn’t stop making out with her boyfriend to take me to the outhouse when we were at a cabin in the woods at night when I was five years old and I ended up messing my pants
- Bought me a needle for my turntable as a birthday present when I was about ten, but didn’t know how to install it and didn’t bother finding out.  Bought herself a new needle which she installed on her own turntable at the same time.
- Did not defend me at all when my stepfather hit me and call me a slut and a thief when I was 16 (they got married when I was 15)
- Refused to let me buy a car with my own money and pay for my own insurance when I was 17 because I might get in an accident that the insurance wouldn’t fully cover and they might have to pay for it and lose their house (and they certainly wouldn’t drive me anywhere)
- Didn’t bother finding out what kind of person I was living with or where I was living when I moved into a trailer with a heroine addict when I was 18 to get out of her house (By now my half brothers had been born.  I later found out she resented me for not helping her take care of them.  I have always felt guilty that I had no loving feeling for them because I instinctively knew they were my replacements in her N Supply stream, and therefore she would no longer need me for anything.)

Of course, there are so many other examples, but I need to get to the point.  One of the problems with my particular N mother was that her overwhelming desire to always be right drove friends and relatives away. Or, she chose not to associate with them because they did not display the appropriate level of deference to her superior intelligence, or sympathy and awe for her heroic, martyr-like efforts.  In addition, several relatives died when I was young.  This meant that most of the time, it was just me and her.  She was my only real “family” for so many years.  This makes it extremely painful when she chooses to cut me off (like she did so many others) because I’m not being an obedient supply source.  

In particular, when I was 13 she left me with her 26 year-old boyfriend for two weeks.  He:  a) seduced and manipulated me into having sex with him, b) said that he would always take care of me – which I DESPERATELY wanted someone (anyone) to do, and c) recognized, and pointed out to me, that my mother had no respect whatsoever for my feelings or needs.  Our “affair” continued for several months before my mother found out (I told a counselor, who promptly told her).  She had him deported (he was a foreigner), which I should always be totally grateful for (in her mind) because it showed what a good mother she was, looking out for me that way.  Of course, now I am grateful for that aspect of it and have been for some time, but at the time I was rebellious, partly because my eyes had just been opened to how careless she was towards me, and partly because a large source of “support” (however twisted it was) had just been taken away (once again) by her.  My mother saw this rebelliousness (and the fact that I had “stolen her boyfriend”) as a terrible betrayal, and she discarded me.  

Ever since then, I’ve felt like I’ve been trying to fight my way back into her heart, and regain my early status as a “star” child.  For many years, I also tried to make her see and apologize for the way she treated me.  I wrote her many letters that she did not respond to.  When I would break down and call her weeks or months after sending the letters, she would say tightly “You’re entitled to your opinion,” or “I’m not going to be your punching bag,” or “Well I’m sorry, but I had a hard time… blah blah… my father was an alcoholic … blah blah… my mother was always sick and I took care of her…. Blah blah … sob sob … why can’t you be nice to your mother like I was to mine.”  Any of you who have heard this type of apology know that it is NOT an apology – it is a justification and a ploy for sympathy that communicates zero remorse or understanding of your feelings.  I think another thing I’ve done is refuse to appear (be) happy in my dealings with her, because I don’t want her to take credit for any emotional or material success I might enjoy because she wouldn’t admit any wrongdoing.

I finally gave up on the “making her see and apologize” part with the help of my 12-step sponsor.  Here’s how that went:  My step-father was getting remarried and I was going to the wedding, which was in Chicago, close to where my mother lives.  (I had worked to develop a healthy relationship with him after they got divorced, which my mother was and is very resentful about, and cut me off for over a year about).  I had seen my mother two years before at my wedding (where she visited me very briefly and spent most of the time in various dramas with her boyfriend), and before that it had been 4 years since I’d seen her.  Thinking that she might refuse to see me while I was there due to the nature of my visit (going to my step-father’s wedding), but hoping against hope that she would act like a mother and want to see me, I phoned her to request a visit.  Of course, she immediately said she would not see me.  A few days later I received an email from her wherein she described how she could not understand how I could still associate with that man given all the horrible things he had done to her, and to me.  She did describe some of the things he had done to me in the note, and I was SOOO tempted to point out that at the time she had done NOTHING to discourage him from doing them, and NOTHING to indicate that she was displeased he had done them.  I talked to my sponsor about it and she asked me what “my part” was (this is an integral concept in 12-step work).  I thought, what the hell could possibly be my part?  I’m a daughter simply asking to see her mother!  My sponsor told me “my part” was not accepting my mother for what she was – continually expecting her to be a good (or even halfway decent) mother and then getting upset when she didn’t meet this unrealistic expectation.  She also said in my response to the email, I should communicate the “bottom line,” which she helped me realize was that I love my mother and want a relationship with her, but I also need to have a relationship with my other family members.  I carefully crafted an email response, and a week before my trip to Chicago my mother called to say she would see me, which she did.

That was only about a year ago, and since then my mother and I have been doing okay in that we talk on the phone once in awhile, and we actually spent some time camping with my half brothers and my husband.  She still does and says things that hurt or irritate me, but I figure there’s no point in addressing them because she won’t understand and she’ll never change.  Also, she is of course extremely sensitive and might take anything I say as a reason to cut me off once again.  I hate that her behavior and opinions still matter so much to me, but they do.   I guess what I’m struggling with right now is: What is the difference between setting boundaries with an N parent, and trying to change them or get them to see your point of view?  How do you cope if your boundary-setting causes them to cut you off?  How do you stop caring that they are cutting you off?

Sorry for the lengthy diatribe – this stuff has been bottled up for years and I actually have a lot more to say and a lot more questions, but I will give it a break for now – thanks so much for being here.

Peace,
Gwyn

hope2003:
I am not as good at advice as some of the others around here, but I felt as though your post deserved a response.

In my opinion, boundary setting is done for your benefit.  You establish your limits, and if that person exceeds those limits, they will suffer the consequences.  You may suffer incidental consequences as well, but it won't be as bad as the boundary violation.  

My guess is that you will stop caring less about what your mother thinks as you start feeling better and stronger.

You sound like you have been through hell.  I commend you for all of your hard work. It sounds like you have  good therapist and are on the right track.

catlover:
Thank you Hope - I really appreciate your response.  I guess I was looking for some support in addition to just advice, but I didn't realize that till after I had written my treatise!  I'm also really wondering if others have experienced similar things with their mothers.  (Wish I could change the subject I put on my post...)

Jaded911:
Gwyn,

I can relate to your description of your mothers lack of maternal instincts, however my mom was not a Narcissist by any means.  She was just dysfunctional period when it came to everything.  Narcissistic is about the only thing I can honestly say the women was not.  

I want to let you know that you are not alone out here when you discuss your mothers actions.  My childhood was a little more sugar coated then what yours appears to have been, but none the less it was total hell.  

I think the difference between you and I is that nothing my mom did or said to me has affected me in the least since I was around twelve years old.  My girlfriends mother was my saviour.  If that lady had not been in my life, I can't tell you where I would be right now.  She helped me see what true love was.  She was my mentor when it came to learning about motherhood and families.  Every day of my adult life I think of that woman and I realise that if I would not have had her to reassure me as a young child, I could have never become a woman.

My mother was verbally, emotionally, and at times physically abusive to my sister, brother, and I.  Well, actually not so much physically towards my brother and myself, most of the time her physical abuse was directed at my sister.  My sister was weak and my gosh she was such an easy prey for that woman.  When I was around 13 she slapped me in the face because I asked her why she could never be happy about anything.  After she slapped me in the face I said to her that perhaps she couldn't ever be happy because she was to busy searching for things to make everyone else miserable.  That was the last time she ever slapped me because I slapped the woman right back and told her until I gave her reason to touch me, she could leave her freggin hands off of me.  Once I realised she was a coward and preyed upon the weak and stayed the hell away from someone who spunked up to her, heck, spunk is what I gave her.

Nothing she has said or done to me has affected me since that day.  I think the difference between you and I is that I could really give a rats ars what the woman thinks of me, has thought of me in the past, and what in the heck she will think of me in the future.  As far as I am concerned, she is not my mother.  She gave birth to me that does not give her the right to have the respect of being my mother.  

I have heard for 39 yrs how much that woman sacrificed for us kids.  Well goody freggin gum drops.  It really sinks in how much she sacrificed for us as the yrs pass.  None of us kids talk to the woman, none of us kids send her mothers day cards, none of us kids seek a damn thing from that woman.  So she gets back what she sacrificed for us.  Not a damn thing!!  I know it is hard to understand these kind of feelings if you have never lived through this stuff.  But I promise you one damn thing, if the woman died tomorrow, I would cry.  I would cry all right.  I would cry for the mother I should have had, not the one I was stuck with.  May God have Mercy on her soul when she stands in front of him and has to answer to the beatings she gave my sister, the words she spoke to us over the years, and the refusal to take responsibility for her actions.

If she ever tries to hug me or comfort me in any way, I get chills that run down my spine.  So, learned very early to not look for any comfort, advice, love, compassion, or approval from the woman and I never let myself down.  When she sits alone on the holidays without any of us calling her, what are her thoughts?  Well ya know what I think about her thoughts?  I could care less what she thinks.  Perhaps she is a tiny bit remorseful for the hell she put us through.  If not, then so be it, she can sit alone and pat herself on the back for all she gave up for us.

Please realise you could not help who you were born to.  You can however choose the type of relationship from this point on that you want with her.  My goodness hasn't she already taken away enough of your life.  What do you ever think she could give you that she couldnt find within herself to give you as a child.  As a child you are brought into this world with a clean slate.  If this woman would have given you half of what she should have as a parent, you would be on your way in life.  She gave you nothing but a freaked up road to travel.  Nothing she ever did will ever be her fault, according to her that is.

My mom merely gave birth to me.  I am thankful for that but I refuse to be in dept to her for the rest of my life.  If you can not get any answers out of her to help you find inner peace, give yourself a minute to gather your thoughts and move on to find the inner peace without the woman.  I can speak for myself when I tell you that when I decided to rid my mind of the woman who gave birth to me, I began to fill my mind with wonderful thoughts.  They are toxic and nothing will ever change about that.  But you can change how you think of her.  Who cares what she thinks, who cares what she likes or doesnt like about you.  Heck, what makes her an expert on you?  Because she gave birth to you?  Thank her for giving you life, thank yourself for allowing yourself to live that life she gave you.  Find whatever you have to with your mom and if you cant find what you are searching for with her, perhaps its time to stop searching that route.  

I never got anything useful from my mom except the woman showed me how I never wanted to be as a mother.  I was everything she never was and I thank God my kids can never say anything about me that I can say about my mom.  I did learn from her.  I learned what I never wanted to be.  I guess that is the only thing she ever gave me that was worth a hoot.  I have never looked back when I emotionally let her go.  It is a feeling of freedom that you deserve hun.  How many years did she take from you?  One day is to many.  You give to your children, you dont take.  My mom attempted to take and I would be damned if I would just hand it over to her.  

I am not saying it was easy, I am simply saying it was hard as hell but it was well worth it.  Cut her loose.  Let her live her life in hell.  You live your life to the fullest.  Without her if you have to!!!!

Anastasia:
I think I must have been about 25 when I reallllly began to realize that my Nmother did not love me.  It was a big shock for that to come to my consciousness.  Mothers are supposed to love their children, aren't they?  In order to cope with such a stressful childhood, I denied what was before me.  I had to not admit my Nmother and abusive stepfather hated me just for existing.  I had to not admit to myself that my Nmother didn't care anything about me, otherwise, I couldn't have coped with living in that house.  And I had nobody to go to.  Nowhere to go.  I was stuck.  So I lived in Denial.  It got me thru.
Once I had my son and my Nmother was attempting to overstep my boundaries, it was enough.  And, like me, when your Nmother has pushed you too far, you will step away.
I am not saying that there won't be alot of pain involved.  You probably will feel enormous anger and hostility for years of stuffing down your feelings with her is my guess, but you will survive.  
Its a pity that those of us that aren't narcissists assume that these narcissists are even capable of love.  They aren't, but we keep hanging on to that thread of hope like fools.  Give up the dream, kids, as it ain't happening:  these narcissists don't have it to give to anyone...it isn't you...it's them that are crazy.
You cannot get the Narcissist to conform or change.  You cannot get blood from a turnip or love from a narcissist.  
The best thing, to me, you can do for yourself is to work on giving up the fantasy that you will get what you need emotionally from a narcissist.  
You have to find ways to nurture YOURSELF.  My suggestion is to quit focusing on what the narcissist needs and focus on taking care of yourself.  Build your own self-esteem with accomplishments, being healthy mentally and physically.  Work out.  Read.  Etc.
Work on separating yourself so you can see the situation even clearer.  All will fall in place for you in time, Gwen.  Trust this.

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