Letter to dear ole' Dad and Mom -

[David P]

I have been talking to my new T about preparing for another 'confrontation' with those strange critters that I call parents. She will coach me if I insist and has asked me to re-write all my previous stuff again. I think that she did that for a reason - maybe so I express myself in a way which reflects my current feelings. Anyways I started to write about some childhood historically significant events and it struck me that I (and maybe some of you ) were raised and rewarded to be *smaller and lesser* than we really are.
 I mean that I was punished for expressing myself as a big child,a loud child or a forthright child. I was told to be quieter, less self interested, less open, less honest,less confident, less this and less that --less--less, f******g  LESS!! ( I am geting a little angry writing this).I was rewarded for being less excited,less happy, less fulfiled, less content,less rested and less fed. They made sure that I always had less of everything that I wanted or sought. I was encouraged and directed to settle for less, to expect less and to NEVER demand more that less. If I achieved MORE by hard work or efforts at school,they found a way to make the reward less or small.

Why?? What kind of sick diseased minds do that to children??

DP (a tad despondent)

[mudpuppy]

Hi David,

Your post reminds me of one of the most maddening things about Ns. Their behavior is often just a bizarre and sometimes subtle variation of acceptable behavior.
A schizophrenic is usually easily identifiable as a deeply disturbed person and their behavior treated appropriately.
But an N mimics 'normal' human behavior closely enough that an outside observer often sees nothing wrong. Or maybe they're so screwy they actually think their off kilter behavor is how other people really behave, but I doubt it. I believe it i calculated behavior.
In any event your post made me think, because as a parent often times our role is to tell our kids to demand or expect less. Being less self interested or acquisitive or loud is often appropriate.
But Ns incessantly twist the appropriate into some self serving, destructive control issue. And when the victim complains, to an outsider, it usually looks like the N is just being a good little citizen and the victim is the problem.
It is so irritating to be told by people that our anger at the abuse is the problem, and if we'd just shut up everything would be OK.
Ns not only engage in black and white thinking, as Vunil was pointing out the other day, they insist on making the black white and vice versa, and just getting the world to see that black is not white often takes all our energy. Meanwhile the N is off starting a new fire we have to put out.

mud

[miss piggy]

Hello all,

Petuunia, just fyi,  David has explained his reasons a few times for wanting to confront his parents on other threads.  Many have tried to warn him off and your good intentions are noted...but one might get tired of explaining why they want to do it anyway.  I think he just wants to aim the cannon the other direction for a change...

David said: What kind of sick diseased minds do that to children??
Mudpuppy replied: But an N mimics 'normal' human behavior.

Yes, I've often wondered how much of the rage that came out of Ndad's mouth was just a very loud repeat of what his frustrated Parents-of-an-N must have said to him: "why are you so selfish?"  "You only think about yourself!"  "Stop bringing attention to yourself!" "CAN you be a LIT-TLE conSIDerate?"  My favorite is: BE HAPPY! shouted at the top of his lungs.    As a result, my panic attacks started in adult life when I had a pretty visible position in my community...I had the skills but not the temperament.  Yikes.

Good luck with Round 2, ding! 

MP

[David P]

The directive from my parents to be 'less' was the all pervasive theme throughout my upbringing -maybe *upbringing* is too complimentary. I mean childhood. When I looked at it and boiled it all down to that idea,it really hit me.My mind( as a physical scientist) tends to seek central concepts. I look for the best grain of wheat in the big bag of chaff.
The "be less" directive WAS the central theme. It follows( to my mind) that they,of course, wanted to 'be more' - typical N requirements.
However the illuminated issue here is not what they wanted so much as how I have been willing,as an adult, to settle for less. Less respectful treatment from others, less money for my labor, less rewards from my efforts, less this and less that.This realization was a jolt to me. It brought forward the further realization that asking for *more* is uncomfortable for me. That is my challenge right now to practise asking for more rather that accept less..This might take a while.

Thanks for listening.
DP in Tx.

[Sallying Forth]

The "be less" directive WAS the central theme. It follows( to my mind) that they,of course, wanted to 'be more' - typical N requirements.
However the illuminated issue here is not what they wanted so much as how I have been willing,as an adult, to settle for less. Less respectful treatment from others, less money for my labor, less rewards from my efforts, less this and less that.This realization was a jolt to me. It brought forward the further realization that asking for *more* is uncomfortable for me. That is my challenge right now to practise asking for more rather that accept less..This might take a while.

Thanks for listening.
DP in Tx.

Hi David,
The word which comes to me is WORTHLESS. That is what my Nparents wanted me to be - WORTH LESS THAN THEM.

Normal children are selfish, into themselves, thinking only about themselves, etc. Those are the normal narcissistic traits which children have and then out grow as they mature into adults.

However my Nparents couldn't handle me getting what they should ONLY be entitled to receive.
THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. THINKING ONLY ABOUT THEMSELVES. SELFISH. LOUDER. MORE FULFILLED. MORE HAPPY. MORE CONTENT. MORE. MORE. MORE.
A Nparent is the perpetual six year old child.

I've struggled with my worthiness for years. Finally I can say I feel worthy. Worthy to charge what I deserve for my services. And the cool thing is people don't dicker with me about my prices like they used to do. It wasn't them. It was me who felt worthless. The more I respect myself, the more I believe I am worth it. Others treat me like I treat myself.

[miss piggy]

Hi SF and all,

Your post reminded me of a line from a Goldie Hawn movie "Overboard".  Goldie, as a spoiled princess socialite, is complaining to her likewise spoiled mother that her H is talking about having children again.  "Tsk, tsk" says the mother.  "When you have a baby, you can't be the baby anymore..."

I can't tell you how many times I think of this scene when I have to deal with childish parents.  I'm so sick of it.  Not just my own but the ones at my kids' school, etc.  I want to scream: "Grow up!!!" 

Then my next thought is, well, maybe they know something I don't.  Like the squeaking wheel getting the grease, etc.  I mean, why not wear other people down like they do?    Ugh.

Disgusted with myself for even thinking that, MP

[miss piggy]

Oh PS to Miss Petuunia,

Don't worry, I think we all know you didn't know about the previous threads.  Thought I would catch you up in a hurry.

And welcome to the board!     Miss Piggy

[welcomeguest]

A personal example of this.

EAT YOUR VEGETABLES.

I'm not hungry, I'm full up.

EAT YOUR VEGETABLES.

repeat ad infinitum

A good parent should get their children to eat their vegetables, so the N imitates this.

But they ignore the childs statement that they are full  (being aware that children sometimes try it on) all they know is a good patent gets their child to eat their vegetables.

EAT YOUR VEGETABLES.

[Marta as guest]

SF:
I've struggled with my worthiness for years. Finally I can say I feel worthy. Worthy to charge what I deserve for my services. And the cool thing is people don't dicker with me about my prices like they used to do. It wasn't them. It was me who felt worthless. The more I respect myself, the more I believe I am worth it. Others treat me like I treat myself.

Seriously seconded. For me, the road to feeling worthy has been to slowly establish my own strict boundaries and enforce them like a terrier.

[vunil]

You guys are really bringing up a lot of stuff for me.  Dave, I have always suspected I was less successful at some things (maybe everything) growing up because my parents eithers wanted me to not do wonderfully (unconsciously) or I had been so taught that I was unworthy that I acted that out by not doing well.  I was never a complete wash-out, but I also never was at the top of things either, and I realize looking back that I could have been.  Something in me pulled back.  I never went all out, never fully believed I could win at things. 

It took me a long time to get over that but I feel it a little when they are around-- like I hide my light under a bushel for them.  It is easier than fighting them and their force, I guess.  I am pretty sure this is unconscious on their part-- I really think they think their parenting is pure parental love.  They edit out any indications otherwise.  Their editing is what makes things really tough-- there is no chance for self-reflection and change, of course as we know but a more subtle issue is that there is little chance for true communication and just regular functioning.  Everything is held back by the N pull toward weird stuff that gets in the`way-- like wanting others to be inferior.  Makes for strange interactions!

Another way growing up with N parents makes us "less" is I think it puts us at a HUGE disadvantage in trying to figure out how to deal with people normally.  CeeMee is very articulate about this and I hope she joins in on this.  But if you grow up with N parents you probably develop N habits even if you aren't N yourself or you may develop masochistic habits (I developed both, oddly) and getting along with people who were lucky enough to learn how to have regular give-and-take relationships takes a lot of relearning.  I was lucky to have blunt friends who helped teach me but still I had a lot to learn.

One more observation, anyone else notice they actually start becoming less around their N parents, even in adulthood?  I am fighting that now-- somehow I am less confident, less cute, less able to be my usual successful professional self the longer I am around them. Yes, they are going home soon   I am not sure if it is me (habits die hard) or them or both-- probably both.  But I do think it is unconscious on their part, which means we can never have a real conversation about it (I have tried!).  To them they see the TRUTH and trying to explain otherwise just leads to blank stares and angry haughtiness.

[Lizbeth]

This is exactly how I ended up with an eating disorder.

A personal example of this.

EAT YOUR VEGETABLES.

I'm not hungry, I'm full up.

EAT YOUR VEGETABLES.

repeat ad infinitum

A good parent should get their children to eat their vegetables, so the N imitates this.

But they ignore the childs statement that they are full  (being aware that children sometimes try it on) all they know is a good patent gets their child to eat their vegetables.

EAT YOUR VEGETABLES.

[Hopalong]

Dear Vunil,
I live with my N parent and feel myself shrivel every time I go up the walkway.
I can't economically leave, not now. But...I am not living a full life. I do lots of
church activities and see friends, but there comes a time you do have to go home,
unfortunately. There's no abuse, just the hardwired N emotional deafness, and I have to
deflect intrusions daily. I guess it's made me stronger in ways, but also more desperate.

Hopa-less

[frances]

Dear Hopalong

I lived with my mother until I was in my 40s and then a light came on one day and I left.  My brothers helped me with living expenses and still Mom clings. My father died when I was in my 30s but they never had a relationship.

When I see that someone is living with an N who is a parent as I did I feel for them and worry about them but you do get desperate.  There was a set of knives in the house and someone I would pause by them. I certainly never did anything but that but I wondered if I was becoming so distraught that perhaps something could happen. I wonder how many tragic things happen in life because people don't leave Ns. Try to do everything you can to get out of the house.

Frances

[guest444]

Hello David,
 
It is interesting that you say you're a physical scientist.  I am too.  I wonder sometimes if I wasn't attracted to science because the facts and theories are so objective and analytical to me; I can lose myself in it because they cannot be disputed, and just "feel right" to me. 

Anyway, about your letter to N. Dad.  I wrote one too.  It was 35 pages and counting...I read it the next day and realized all of it would fall on deaf ears, but it was very comforting to me to write it.  I started by-- first thing in the morning as I woke up, I wrote down the first thought I had and the subsequent feeling.  I realized I had some memory or thought about my parents the minute I woke up and often throughout the day the would creep in at the strangest moments, and the corresponding feeling was always fear, anxiety, or the like..  I did this for one whole day.  I recorded every thought I could and every subsequent feeling.  It was strange, but looking back at my list I could see that I was preoccupied with thoughts about the Ns in my life, and all of the feelings associated with thinking about them weren't pleasant or desirable.  But there were also lots of good thoughts and feelings which mostly centered around my SO and my dog (loves me unconditionally).  I allowed myself to not feel guilty for having all the negative or unpleasant thoughts and feelings..I just recorded them, and as I had each one I tried to realize that I was in fact thinking it, and that it was OK (all feelings are OK), and then let it go.  I then composed this list into a letter to send to Mom and Dad.  This was going to "prove" to them that I didn't think at all like they thought I should (I should be more giving to them and less selfish--be Less Less Less!), and my behaviors didn't even mean what they kept insisting they did (ie, you didn't offer to help out with your sister's shower, which means you don't care about her, etc), and it was intended to reveal to them, my true feelings...

How did you compose yours?

[Marta]

I realized I had some memory or thought about my parents the minute I woke up and often throughout the day the would creep in at the strangest moments, and the corresponding feeling was always fear, anxiety, or the like.. 

Ditto...