How to stand up for yourself?

[DifferentDrummer]

Hi All,

This is a surprisingly supportive environment.  I guess when you open up that is what can happen.  I am SurviveandGrow's wife, and I have been reading over his shoulder as he has been exploring your very helpful postings.   It all sounds suspiciously familiar, which is part of the reason that I am taking him increasingly seriously as he has been trying to convince me of the weirdness in my family for years. 

The thing that comes to mind when I think about my relationship with my family (and the vast network of "followers" they control) is that I have always seen myself like my zodiac sign, a dog.  I never actually considered that this may be a problem.  I prided myself on being loyal and obedient.  It seemed to be working for I have been pretty good at maintaining the status quo my entire life, and was never really aware of the toll it had taken on me until recently.  Up until this past year or so, I never really made the slightest decision without asking my Nmother her opinion on it and then debriefing with her on it afterwards.  I didn't know where this indecisiveness was coming from, but I felt great relief when she would confidently steer me this way or that.  I knew she loved this vicarious experience of my life she would get and I felt like a powerful resource (SUPPLY?) being able to provide her this.  Deep down, I knew she had no real idea what she was talking about but it felt reassuring to be sent along a path by an external source, not have to bear the consequences of deciding for myself. 

I thought this was just in my nature, but at the repeated urgings of my husband I have reluctantly drastically reduced my communication with them, and over time things have changed.  I discovered that nothing awful happens if I make a decision without running it by her, and it is incredibly empowering.  I have become less self conscious and more confident in my capacity to manage activities and human interactions in a normal way, without a lot of pomp and circumstance, just being treated like eveybody else.  I realized I don't have to view and review every interaction I have with people in my mind multiple times to come to some sort of conclusion about it.  As a basically practical person who doesn't really appreciate the value of psychobabble unless it helps me get things done, this is the great thing about spending time and emotional energy on trying to resolve this - a shadow that had colored all of my interactions and had set me in a cycle of constant self querying and indecision is really lifted when I am released from that spell, and I am able to just go about my business without this constant veil of self doubt that slows me down. 

Well, I didn't think I was really going to write all this but S&G deserves better than what he gets from the in-laws "oh isn't that cute (read weird), you're like one of those new age hands-on dads, like a woman!) and I am trying to be strong and remember why I am "estranging" them by not giving them every detail of my life.  It really is necessary for the well being of myself and our family.  I would never have been so honest about this a few months ago.

Still, it is hard for me to maintain this stance with them, especially when they are calling and emailing and sending relatives to do the same - treating us like rebellious silly teenagers or worse, that S&G is some weird person pulling me from the family and putting me up to this as an isolationist tactic.  I have to admit that at first I thought his opinions of my family were an isolationist tactic - I had dated guys like that before who were very controlling and jealous and I found myself sucked into their universe without contact with the outside world.  But after testing S&G's theory, I realize the truth in his concerns and it has forced me to try to change how I function with my Nrelatives.  I can almost see this light at the end of the tunnel where I feel respected as a grown up (I don't think that will ever come from my parents, but I can see friends treating me this way as a reflection of my own self assessment). 

My problem now, though, is that especially with the holidays approaching I have to figure out what I will say to them when confronting them with the reality that we really would rather not see them.  Other people always seem to know what to say in self defense, but as soon as I try to express myself on the fly I get flustered and sound like a blithering idiot.  I can't get my mind around what I want them to do to change.  I don't want to cut off relations entirely with them, I want to CONTROL my relations with them.  I want to set boundaries that are clear and if they cross them they will bear the consequences.  I just don't know what reasonable boundaries I can determine ahead of time because I can't predict the scenarios that are going to occur that will make me feel small and humiliated, things I would rather avoid.  They've never done boundaries, they see them in other families and act like they are obstacles to intimacy (intimacy meaning complete lack of privacy without ever grasping who this person is apart from their deeds).  So I'm trying to learn some self respect by standing up for myself, but I fear it will all fall flat when faced with the real challenge of confronting them with my desire that our dynamic change, as I am unable to put it into appropriate words that would require certain actions on their part, without leaving myself out there for mockery.  Any ideas? 

Thanks,
DifferentDrummer

 

[Chicken]

Hi DifferentDrummer!  ...and Welcome aboard!

I think that you are facing some difficult stuff at the moment.  It seems like you have been hiding behind people all your life...  allowing them to tell you who you are, what you like, what you think and what you should do...  so much so that you could not take a step without consulting them.  These people were happy to do this for you, it sounds like they were very controlling and needed you to give them self worth, similar to you needing them, almost like a codependency.  You relied on them, you have allowed yourself to be controlled. 

You need to realise what effect this had on your self esteem.  What message did their behaviour give you about your self?  That you couldn't make decisions on your own?  That they were right in all things and you were wrong?  That your voice wasn't worth listening to and your opinions had no worth? 

The first step is awareness.  It's a difficult one as the walls come crashing down leaving you very exposed, especially when you have no idea WHO the YOU is.   This is such a scary phase as this is when you become a target for more controlling people to build you up into their puppet.  It's vital that you are surrounding yourself with people who encourage you to think for yourself so you can be in a safe environment.  Maybe you can ask your husband to keep reminding you to decide on things, to ask your opinion etc

I think now that you are aware of the situation, you should educate yourself on it, so you can pinpoint when you are being controlled by someone again, whether it is in a friendship, work situation or your relationship (I'm sure this isn't the case, but I don't know you well enough to say).  I know from experience that when you go through something like this, it's soooooo hard to pinpoint when it is happening again, because it all feels so fimiliar.   The only thing you can rely on now, is......   yourself.  Get to know you, observe yourself in the details of your day, and watch how you let others dictate, manipulate or decide for you.  Don't give in to anyone unless you ask yourself first "What do I want?"  Go crazy and write on some post-its!:
"What do you think?"
"What do you want?"etc
...and post them where you will see them all around the house.  You need to train yourself to hear yourself.  I get a strong sense from your post that you are afraid to think for yourself and afraid of falling down and making a mistake.  This is 100% natural for someone who has never tried it!  It's a fear that will keep you trapped in your voicelessness.  It's a fear you must go through, you must face.  It's a huge fear for you, but you must set yourself free, and the door is through that fear.  I would recommend going through this alone with the support of loved ones and even a counsellor.  It's your path and no one elses.  You need to pull yourself out of this tangle and get to know you. 

Wishing you courage,

Selkie

[daylily]

I can't get my mind around what I want them to do to change.  I don't want to cut off relations entirely with them, I want to CONTROL my relations with them.  I want to set boundaries that are clear and if they cross them they will bear the consequences.  I just don't know what reasonable boundaries I can determine ahead of time because I can't predict the scenarios that are going to occur that will make me feel small and humiliated, things I would rather avoid.  They've never done boundaries, they see them in other families and act like they are obstacles to intimacy (intimacy meaning complete lack of privacy without ever grasping who this person is apart from their deeds). 

Hello DifferentDrummer:

Please remember that you can only "control" your relations with yourself.  That is, you can decide what you will and will not tolerate, and how you behave when faced with the latter.  You can't change your family, and you're setting yourself up for failure and heartache if you keep that as your goal.

I've had a lot of issues with my mother and boundaries, and I have to say that, in the end, the only strategy that has worked for me is to behave as if the boundaries were established.  No matter who builds it, a fence is still a fence.  Basically, I've had to say (internally):  "It doesn't matter much whether you respect and agree with me.  The issue here is that I respect and agree with myself.  I know that I've decided to behave in a mature, responsible way, so I will do so whether you play along or not."  And, oddly enough, she has responded.  Not always, and not perfectly, but she has picked up on the fact that things are different, and that if she doesn't respond in some way, she might lose me.  It's been a long process and it has taken a great deal of work, but I think it's better than cutting off contact or confronting her with her behavior.  That is the most pointless exercise of all.  She either denies it or rationalizes it or lapses into hystrionic self-pity, which is painful to watch because it is so fake.  My mother is old (and now she is quite ill), and I see nothing to gain by demanding some crocodile remorse.

As far as holidays go, I believe you have two choices:  Either maintain your own standards of behavior and engagement, or remove yourself from the situation.  Only you can decide whether the former is possible.  Obviously, you can never predict every possible scenario, but you can say to yourself, "I will not engage in these petty, hurtful games.  I can always leave the room, the house, or the state.  I can always choose not to engage.  I am an adult in control of myself, and I have car keys and a credit card.  Therefore, I will not be held hostage by these emotional terrorists."  In the end, a well-timed exit is worth a thousand words.  I've done both, and the former brought me a level of self-respect that I cherish.  Engaging in guerilla warfare with my family generally brings me heartburn--not to mention the fact that my husband gets caught in the middle.

I wish you all the best.  These are tough issues, but I really believe that you can develop internal standards and internal controls.  You can stick to your guns without firing, and that's the best revenge against people with minimal self-control and maximum self-involvement.

daylily

 

[mum]

Different Drummer: Welcome. First, may I say you are extremely well "spoken" (expressed?), I'm thinking you write for a living?
Anyway, I could have written exactly what you have (ok, well, not as well!) a few short years ago.
I will quote a person who told me about myself, who, at the time, I had never met before. She  helped me get on the fast track to healing:
She said (essentially):
"you are a person who would never hurt anyone. As a result of possibly lifetimes of almost religious level care of others, you have lost your seniority over your own life. You think for a long time about a decision, ruminating out all the possible consequences, and then make a choice. But if anyone comes along and questions that choice....because you can see "all sides" of things, and are able to actually feel what others are feeling, you say........'oh, maybe that's not such a good choice I made' and you give up your power".
Sound familiar? Granted, there are a million variations and other contributing factors (my parents were not N, but I sure had enough of them in my life), but as I read your post, it reminded me sooo much of that conversation.

Lots of people on this board, I think, have this ability to heal and feel for others, and that is WHY N's use us so easily....and perhaps why we chose N's to have relationships in this lifetime (and to go out on a limb, I'm starting to feel we are paired with parents as well, as a spiritual choice, so that we learn what we need to as a soul.....but that's a far out there discussion for another time, I suppose).

As soon as I figure something out, the universe sends in a "test" so I can practice, whether I want to or not. Sounds like your first (or maybe hundredth) test is coming up.
I echo what Daylily and Selkie have said: keep it simple. You can ONLY have control over yourself. I know that even as a teacher, the most compassionate thing I can do for my students is to set boundaries..for myself. For example: "I am going to help another student. When you can ask me for help in a more controlled/respectful/insert behavoir here.....I would be happy to listen and see what I can do."
or as a parent: " I feel upset. I need a little time alone. When we are both calm, I will discuss this with you".

OK, just so you know, I am not always soooo level headed. I'm human.
But I know this stuff works...WHY? Because I am working from my intention, and I am being honest. The only thing I can control is myself. I am still respecting the dignity of the other person, without giving up my own power. I am leaving them with their power, and I am simply stating some compassionate boundaries.  We call these "I" messages for the younger students... and it's part of a lot of conflict resolution programs in schools.
Sure, I know your folks have history with you in the way the "dance" has gone before....but step out of it. Decide what YOU will do, and don't even concern yourself with, or practice, or envision what they will say or do, as you will give THAT energy, and the new script for your life is YOU ARE IN CONTROL OF YOU. The only "practice" you want to bother with is the one that repeats your own good intention and power to yourself, as daylily suggested.

You seem to have a wonderfully supportive husband and I have no doubt you can weather the storm of changing this relationship with your parents together.
As I said to a student recently, who was upset that another kid "stole" his place in a waiting line...."if you don't care, it can't hurt you"....so he told me and the other kid he didn't care, smiled, and boy the kid who stole his spot was pissed!  You see, the "victimized" kid changed the dance!
So should you not care about your parents? Of course you should, but you can choose NOT to care if they: make faces, judgemental comments, try to get you to change back, etc.
Send them love.....just not your power. You get to keep that.

[Chicken]

I'm starting to feel we are paired with parents as well, as a spiritual choice, so that we learn what we need to as a soul.....but that's a far out there discussion for another time, I suppose

Can I go off topic quickly just to say that I believe this.  Ok, back to you Drummer...

[CeeMee]

Excellent post DD.  And I agree with Mum, very well expressed!

Welcome and thanks for speaking up.  As a voicelessness help board, I'm always encouraged when a new voice comes forward.  What you describe is very common I think in family dynamics.  In my case, it usually surfaces around the holidays as the "family" tries to decide what the arrangements will be for Thanksgiving and X-mas.  It's never easy especially when there are grabs at control.  I think the advice you've gotten from Daylily, Selkie and Mum is right on target.  Staying true to yourself, maintaining effective boundaries and exercising your control are the keys as I think they've all said.

What I found most difficult when dealing with these situations with my own mother, was controlling MY reactions.  That was the most difficult pattern to break.  Not until I was able to take responsibility for my own reactions, was I able to control them.  At some point it became clear to me that my mom wasn't "making me" feel or do anything.  I was.  And when I took that power back, the tables turned in our relationship.

In my own experience, I too had times when I NEEDED to withdraw from the family and particularly duirng the holidays.  This was healing and helped me practice being in control, taking responsibility for my reactions, and taking care of myself and my (nuclear) family.  Over the years, things have gotten better and  I doubt if those periods of transition stand out in the minds of my family members or me for that matter.  It all becomes part of the landscape of life.  Just keep in mind what the focal points are.

Hope this helps.

CeeMee

[DifferentDrummer]

Thanks Selkie, Daylily, Mum, and CeeMee,

You are right on the money from my point of view.  

Selkie, I like the idea of learning to hear myself through self observation. I do have to actively practice thinking for myself before it comes naturally.

Daylily, I like the idea that through deciding to respect and agree with yourself you can positively affect your environment.  Engaging in game playing and otherwise verbalizing your self defense does not need to occur to get the results you desire.
What comes to mind is that oft repeated phrase we train people how to treat us. That our reactions are a self fulfilling prophecy seems both empowering and burdensome to me,  but I will focus on the former.  It is hard to break habits, but I am at least conscious that I can actually play a role in impacting my environment through controlling my self-talk.

Mum, thanks, I do relish the ego boost. Your experience with kids makes me think about ways I can empower my own kids.  We only get one chance to raise them, and I would like to offer them the tools to get to know themselves and fully experience their lives.  I try to stay out of their hair as much as possible, but I want them to know I am there to catch them if they need me.  I want to leave a legacy of supportive strength, not weakness or mousiness.  I also want them to know what behaviors are acceptable in society, and I try to do this through explaining the natural consequences of their actions.  They're good kids, and I want to be able to show them how much I like them in normal ways without falling all over them or using them for self promotion.  By focusing inwardly for a bit I am thinking this may help me be more responsive to them.  I want to experience my interactions with them more - I feel so distracted most of the time that I feel like I am missing them growing up.

CeeMee, thanks for keeping in mind the long term perspective. Periods of transition seem necessarily uncomfortable and I have never tried envoking them in my relationships. Good to know whatever possible damage I envision could happen will not last forever (and likely will not last even briefly), so why not give it a shot?

Thanks, this is all very helpful.

[miss piggy]

Hello DD,

Good to meet you!  I just got done with a reply to S&G and was wondering when I would come across your path.  So here you are!

It seems like we have a lot in common.  Very controlling parents.  No encouragement to individuate.  Any sign of individuality is to be quashed immediately.  Which is really weird because I like to be different.  So I am very very quiet about it.  I bob and nod when around my dad, then quietly go about living my life.  This isn't to say I was rebellious or sneaky.  On the contrary, like you, I was extremely obedient.  So obedient, my friends thought I was brainwashed.

It wasn't until I became engaged that things became extremely interesting/disturbing because Ndad didn't have to pay any attention to me because I was just there, like a part of him walking around somewhere else (in his mind).  As long as I didn't advertise our differences, no worries.  Of course, I couldn't change the fact that I am a girl and that was some source of concern and derisive commentary.  But getting married meant being apart, separation, possible inclusion of an outsider, an "other".  My siblings knew this and were very very happy to let me go first even though I was youngest.  "Who wants to get pushed over a cliff?"  "Oh, after you!"  I really saw a very different ugly side of my parents during marriage preparations...and don't you know they behaved the same way for each marriage in the family?  At least they're consistent.

This is a really special board.  I'm glad you found it.  It's helped me tremendously. 

My H has problems with my parents, too, and has put up with a lot.  But he also saw that my older sibs hadn't cut the umbilical cord so he could see why it might be difficult for me.  In fact, it is so weird in my family that I have charted most of the adult "firsts".  First to get married, have a baby, move away, etc.  I'm not bragging about this.  Really, it would have been much easier if sibs had been MEN about it and had grown up to their chronological age.  I was an older bride as it was!  My Ndad could not let go of the image of all of us together, I think because this is a way of acknowledging that you are getting older.  As long as the "kids" are still emotionally and mentally in his house, then he's still young and won't die.  He really did not want us to "split apart" from him.  It's just so weird.  No separation or "otherness" allowed.

I liked your friend's description of you.  I wish I had a friend like that!  It's true.  We need to be as nice to ourselves as we are to others. 

As for the holidays, are there some in-between solutions between spending time with them and no time with them?  That is, maybe just less time with them.  For example, my family used to spend ALL DAY together and we started coming later (made excusable with kids).  Hey, we're on "kid time".  Instead of being appetizers, we'd bring dessert.  Hey, gotta get the kids to bed...etc.  Or, instead of holiday dinner at someone's house, pick 'neutral territory' like a restaurant or club?  I'm just brainstorming.  Can you visit H's family instead?  My H and I started discussing going on a family vacation for just us, like that was our present together.  Although we never did this, I know many who do. 

Open confrontation is pretty hard to do with Ns when you are just starting out with new awareness.  See if limited time helps.  If someone calls later to complain, cut off the phone call (Oh, someone's at the door...).  Your advantage is that you already know all their moves.  They won't be ready for yours. 

As I wrote on the other thread, you and your H sound pretty "together".  That's so great.  Take care, MP

[DifferentDrummer]

Yep, I wonder if it is just N parents or all parents who view separation from them with such negativity - a betrayal that you can never really fix because even if you were to live in the same city, that wouldn't be enough.  If you lived next door, that wouldn't be enough.  As an extension of them, you really have to share your body and soul at every moment to satisfy them.  A lot of siblings, I think, must do this forever but it doesn't seem to be particularly good for their lives.  It is too bad that when you don't do this there is such an undertone of chronic disappointment masked by praise.
DD

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya DD

Welcome to the board.

One thing I did pick up on was your strength of character in your posts.  I also saw a lot of my brother's life too, as he still lives at home.  I was outed at 17 and looking back now, it was probably one of the best things that happened to me as it meant I could become my own person.

With my parents, I don't see my n.biodad but I do see Mum.  I live enough of a distance that I can see them and they can see me, but it takes an effort.  As for Christmas, I haven't spent Christmas with them for quite a few years now.  We go and see them before Christmas and take the presents over, but we always have other plans for Christmas day.

I feel that one thing to possibly think is that it is ok to only spend what time your happy to spend with them, it is ok not to answer the phone if you don't have time, it is ok to make your own decisions but most importantly, it is ok to value yourself and set the boundaries that you are happy with.

Personally I feel you are on the right track DD, it may take some time to implement (Change is scary for a normal person, for an N it's terrifying), and there may be set backs along the way, but I feel it's about consistancy.  Think what boundaries you want to place and stick to it, regardless of what happens.

Take care and I wish you all the best...

H&H xx