A General Theory of Love

[CeeMee]

I've just finished reading a book recommended by Dr. G, titled "A General Theory of Love."
This book, which is just over 200 pages, pulled together a lot of what I thought and
learned about love and healing over the years
and presented it in the most thoughtful and understandable format.
I can't recommend the book enough.  Has anyone else had a chance to read it?

The book outlines three doctors' research on how we learn to love, why many fail to learn, and how to heal from the damage failing to learn causes.
Limbic resonance, regulation and revision during infancy and childhood are said to be responsible, to a great extent, for emotional development and identity; and therefore, those of us who have the misfortune of being parented erratically or not at all, have a greater likelihood of developing emotional deficiencies.  Those of us with faulty wiring or chemistry increase those deficiencies even more.  The damage resulting from faulty parenting or physiology is evident, on one end of the spectrum, by the number of people today who are unable to find love, and on the other end of the spectrum, by the number of stone cold killers walking amongst us.

The authors make their case for this theory using science and their experience treating many patients.  Because so much of this book resonated with my own personal experience, I devoured it page by page, as I read it again and again and again. 

What I liked best about the book though was that it offered hope. The authors believe, there is a cure and that cure for the broken hearted is love and connectedness.  That is love in the sense of listening, hearing, caring, understanding, and accepting. 

What I found most interesting was what they had to say about therapy.  The type of therapy is said to be of less or no importance.  What matters most is who the therapist is and whether the therapist has learned the lessons of love and relating accurately; whether the therapist maintains a childlike wonder about what's inside the mind of another; and whether the therapist can hear the limbic communication of the patient without being sucked into alignment with it.


My questions for anyone reading this are the following:

Where are these healthy people (who've learned the limbic lessons of love) hanging out, so I can go stand next to them and get some limbic resonance, regulation and  revision started?   
Or are we all damaged goods now in varying degrees? 


Lastly, the doctors identify relatedness, connectedness, and affiliation as absolutely essential for human survival.   That is perhaps why so many of us come to this board. 

Aside from the occasional disruptive thread on the board, are the patterns of relating that we see here in the text and subtext of the many posts healthy ones? 

I've often wondered. 

The pattern that I often see is:
someone posts regarding their N (whomever);
the post details the evil character and deeds of the N;
a flurry of replies come in with the obligatory "I'm sorry you're going through this,"
and then on to the business of demonizing the N further in support of the poster.   

For some this is a pattern that repeats quite frequently. 

Is this the sort of resonance and regulating the doctors had in mind? 

Or is it that  in our efforts to hear the limbic communication of each other,  we get sucked into unhealthy alignments?

CeeMee

[Mati]

Hi CeeMee

I am pleased that you brought this up as I have wondered about it too.

In answer to some of your questions, yes there are healthy people out there. I have met one in my counsellor. She has really helped me, but the main thing was that I was seeking for healing. I do believe that someone will come along to help when we reach the place where we will be able to move forward. As I have said, I also joined a small support group. Ones for women leaving abusive relationships can be found in a lot of places. The help is out there but takes some time to find I think. My counsellor was able to offer me unconditional positive regard and it has been transforming. I agree that it is not the therapy that counts but the ability to love another person.

Regarding this board, I have decided that what one needs in the early stage, is validation and therefore what happens as you describe is very necessary. But there is a time to move on from that, but before then, we might slip back and need more of it for a while. But in the meantime, we can search for the help with the next step forward and learning how to have hea;thy relationships in real life. And also connect more with those here who have moved forward somewhat.

So I do not see it as unhealthy what happens here.

The book sounds interesting. Is Dr G the full authors name?

I must say how much I have helped during my time here. Thanks all.

[Hopalong]

Hi CeeMee,
Thank you very much for such a clear summary of this book. I had sent it to my daughter but now want to read it too. I like your questions: where are the healthy people, and do we conduct ourselves here in a healthy way? I hope Dr. G will comment, but I'm going to guess at the answers:

I think healthy people are those who forgive and who are able to perform service. I am partly healthy, part of the time. I twitch about the word "healthy" just as about "normal" in that some pathologies are healthy responses. When someone develops a craziness to deal with pain, there may be an internal logic in it that makes sense. And stunningly wise things come from some people who have had horrible childhoods and now have a severe diagnosis. So I think it's good not to let that word become a bully in our heads. Unlike life (you're either alive or you're not), healthy is a continuum. I think I like the word resilient more than healthy. Where are the resilient people? How do I spend time with them? (I think I am, here.)

I think damaged is like being a lovely old dog who lost part of an ear in a battle. What's damaging is attaching shame to the notion of being damaged. You were hurt and there's a lasting scar in your emotions or behavior? That's damage. You were raised by gentle strong humorous wise kind parents with good genes to boot and now you're replicating the Waltons in the next generation? That's not damaged. It's also phenomenal good luck. What I mean is we don't get extra credit for being lucky, and likewise we don't get extra condemnation for being unlucky or hurt, so damage needs to be a neutral description.

I think this board is positive for all the reasons Mati says. I think as people evolve they begin to forgive. However, if one is brittle and fragile one still needs one's anger for protection. You can let go of it in little bits as you get stronger but often have to pick it up again. Except in minor ways I was never physically harmed by the Ns in my life so it's not so awfully hard, with increasing age, to forgive them. I am humbled by people who were molested or beaten and still can recognize their abusers' own wounds. I think the culture of violence, the toleration of cruelty, from people's kitchens to wars, produces sociopaths. And some genes may, too.

I think healthy is being able to disengage from toxic people and forgive them while protecting yourself. I think it's also coming to grips with the toxic parts of yourself and forgiving yourself for them. It's like having a Truth and Reconciliation Commission within.

Hopalong

[Brigid]

Mati said:

Regarding this board, I have decided that what one needs in the early stage, is validation and therefore what happens as you describe is very necessary. But there is a time to move on from that, but before then, we might slip back and need more of it for a while. But in the meantime, we can search for the help with the next step forward and learning how to have hea;thy relationships in real life. And also connect more with those here who have moved forward somewhat.

I really agree with this.  Certainly, the degree to which someone has been damaged by their abusers, will determine how quickly or completely they can heal from that--no matter how much they may want to find that healing.  For the rest of us, however, having the desire to not want to stay in that sad, angry and hurtful place is key to moving away from it, imo.  Most of us need some kind of intervention to make that happen--therapy, support groups, meds, whatever will help you turn the corner.  Realizing there will be setbacks along the way and finding ways to pick up and get going again without sinking back into depression, is essential to staying on the path to peace and happiness.  I have found that helping others who are trying to recover from their situation has helped me to first, see how far I've come, but also to work hard to form relationships with people who would not put me back into that hurtful place.

Ceemee, I would like to read that book--thanks for recommending it.  I hope I am becoming one of those people you would like to stand next to.

Brigid   

[CeeMee]

Yes Mati, Hopalong and Brigid,  I agree.  There is a time for venting and validation.  I know that I could not have gotten to where I am today without it.  My therapist and my husband are the two most "loving" people who enabled my recovery.  And yes, sometimes I need to go back for more of the same, venting and validating.  This board has been great for that. 

I love your comment Brigid " I hope I am becoming one of those people you would like to stand next to."  Makes me want to stand next to you just for saying it    

Yes, I want to be the healthiest, most resilient person I can, but I feel I need a live-bodied mentor (preferably one that I don't have to pay $200 an hour).  Where are these people?    They certainly aren't at work.  Yikes no.  Or is it that I'm not recognizing the limbically healthy?  What should I be looking for, a certain set of behaviors or results; or is it something even more intangible like a feeling?

And seriously,  would limbically healthy people want to be around those of us in search of, at the risk of being pulled into misalignment?

Please...anyone with thoughts on this, I'd be interested in hearing them.  Thank you Marti, Hopalong and Brigid for your replies.   By the way, the Book is recommened on the resources component of this board.

Dr. G. is not the author, but rather the one who suggested it.

"A General Theory of Love"   by Thomas Lewis, MD, Fari Amini, MD, Richard Lannon, MD

CeeMee

[Hopalong]

"Misalignment." It sounds like a properly professional term (the authors being 3 psychiatrists) that must make great sense in the context of their knowledge and their book.

CeeMee I'm wondering if you might possibly be adopting the lingo here too readily as your own. (A very understandable thing to do when we find a new insight that works...I've done it repeatedly, out of gratitude and enthusiasm for the gift of a writer.) I just worry about new labels being used to bully ourselves. To make us feel walled off from our own competence to heal.

I find you clear and very skillful verbally. "Limbically healthy" and "misalignment" aren't the words you've used before to describe people to yourself, or to describe your inner work, right?

So what words would you have used before you read this book (which I'm still planning to read, sounds very worthwhile)-- to describe your own sense of what feels better/calmer/healthier/saner/resilient in a person?

If you imagine someone it does feel good to stand beside, what might you be noticing about them: in their expression, their voice, their gaze, as much as in what they say? What do you sense when you're with someone from whom you go away feeling more positive and more balanced? 

Likewise, what qualities do you notice when the opposite happens, like it did to October in the car Friday...when you're with someone who leaves you feeling sour, off balance or uneasy?

I'm just trying to offer a vote of confidence for your own intuition and intelligence and powers of observation. Let the experts add to your toolkit. Don't give them credit for all of it or let them tell you there's only one language (tool) that can describe the job.

I do not think the "llimbically healthy" need to be protected from exposure to "people like us." People like us have a great deal to offer in this world. There is more to value about a human than constant strength and composure. In our vulnerability and striving, we contribute to the texture and meaning of life as surely, and as valuably, as the unruffled do.

Hopalong

[mum]

Hello, CeeMee. I am interested in reading that book.

At the (gasp!) giant sized risk of sounding pleased with myself (which I am, and in no way does that imply superiority):
I believe I am a healthy person. Whether you would want to stand by me,I cannot know.

There a plenty of healthy people here on this board. People who recognize pain and want to know what it is and how to learn from it. This, IMO, is what a healthy person does.  Healthy does not really mean "perfect" (which is not even human).

I admit to having a hard time with labels, and I have not read the book. But I had a reasonably healthy childhood and an exceptionally loving family. My path as a soul (not what a scientist would have a comment on, to be sure) has been one that included learning from some unhealthy people and circumstances, many (possibly all) of my own choosing. 

Healthy as a label, for me, could mean anywhere from "barely functioning" to an internal peace nearing the disposition of the Dali Lama (now there is someone I would count as a "healthy mentor", but I will learn just as much from my miserable N ex husband, certainly).

On this board, many times I have nothing to say to people that hasn't been said, so I read and then send them love and move on. Many times I find the pain they are in something I cannot bear, or take on, but it isn't good or bad, it just is.  I bless it anyway. Some people are stuck in pain, and very comfortably so, and if I can say something I think may help, I will, and if it gets through, great, and if it is misunderstood, or my method is clumsy, or they don't hear me, oh well. It's not my path, so I bless them anyway. I also get stuck, I reach out, I move on. Most of us do. That is health.
Pema Chodron is a very enlightened person, but she writes repeatedly about her personal "failures" to help (me anyway) see how very human and the "same" we all are.  I find that healthy and reassuring.

Mostly, though, I sense love here on this board....fellow travelers noticing that each other's paths and pain and joy are indeed our own.
I don't know if the scientists quoted in that book, or even Dr. G would agree, nor do I care. 
So where are these "healthy" people? Everywhere. Look in the mirror.

[cimmaryn]

CeeMee said: <<Yes, I want to be the healthiest, most resilient person I can, but I feel I need a live-bodied mentor (preferably one that I don't have to pay $200 an hour).  Where are these people?  >> 

CeeMee --

It is so interesting that you mentioned this - I was just talking with my therapist about this very issue. I have (for most of my life) yearned for someone who believed in me, who would be honest with me, tough even, but from a position of loving me and seeing my potential -- in otherwords, wanting to help me become the best me they believe I can be. I am sorting through the reasons this is such a powerful desire for me. Basically, I have never had it.

My shrink told me that he has found as a person heals and gains faith in his/herself, this need for a mentor lessons. Until then, if you cannot find a mentor in person, there are many to be found in books. It is not the same, I know. I think for me what I am trying to find is someone to reparent me, to give me what my parents could not. Because of this feeling, it occurred to me when he and I were talking that it would probably be unhealthy to find a mentor when I want one so badly (because I am unlikely to see them clearly and could potentially set myself up to be used/abused). I am not saying it is the same for anyone else

A few years ago, when I was in a better place, another friend told me "if you cannot find a mentor, be a mentor". Perhaps that sound counterintuitive -- but I did it and it felt really good. I found a 16 year old girl who was dealing with a family divorce and depression. We spent time together, hanging out and talking about things. It felt good -- I think it benefitted us both.

<<And seriously,  would limbically healthy people want to be around those of us in search of, at the risk of being pulled into misalignment? >>

I think a truly healthy person would not allow us to pull them into misalignment! They would be able to set needed boundaries with us -- perhaps the challenge would be whether or not we could stand the boundaries and or constructive criticism given to us. I know for me, I recognize I have had a hard time taking criticism, and that is something I am really working on (especially on the job). With my T -- there has been a time or two in the last few months where I have called him outside of session because of something that happened. At one point, I found myself concerned that I was misusing this option. I discussed this feeling with him, and it occurred to me (and I said to him) that I should assume that he can set his own boundaries -- I realized I was trying to 'protect' him from 'me' rather than trusting that he is quite able to set a boundary if he felt the need. What an interesting realization, that I do this! Of course, looked at from the other side, I was also protecting ME from him telling me I was abusing his time outside session...

I wonder how many times I my life I have protected myself out of others helping me or giving to me? It never ceases to amaze me how complicated we human beings are!

In case you wonder, I am also a counselor (as is my soon to be exN). Profession is no determiner of health, or of ability to choose wisely. I will say, though, that I am learning about my weaknesses and improving...

I hope this was not too off topic!

Cimm

[CeeMee]

Hopalong wrote:
"I'm wondering if you might possibly be adopting the lingo here too readily as your own.
I just worry about new labels being used to bully ourselves. To make us feel walled off from our own competence to heal."

Not to worry.  I am simply borrowing (for convenience sake) some of their words to convey what I understood the authors to be saying.  I may well be wrong. 

Hopalong wrote:
"Misalignment." It sounds like a properly professional term (the authors being 3 psychiatrists)
that must make great sense in the context of their knowledge and their book.

I think "misalignment" was something i may have used.  Don't really know if it has any basis in professional psychiatry.  Hadn't thought about  it when I used it.  Just thought it conveyed the thought I had in mind.  In fact, I thought they were all perfectly good words to use particularly for anyone who may have already read the book.  Never imagined they would carry negative connotations for some.  Certianly not my intention. 

Please don't get hung up on the choice of words.  The point of the post (which may have been lost) was to find out what characterizes emotionally healthy people from your perspective and that of others.
Some folks have stepped up and identified themselves as emotionally healthy.  I admire and respect that.   
Tell me Hopalong, what does an emotionally healthy (resilient, or whatever terminology you'd like to use) person look or feel like to you?

Hopalong wrote:
"I do not think the "llimbically healthy" need to be protected from exposure to "people like us." People like us have a great deal to offer in this world. There is more to value about a human than constant strength and composure. In our vulnerability and striving, we contribute to the texture and
meaning of life as surely, and as valuably, as the unruffled do."

I couldn't agree with you more on this point and beautifully stated!

CeeMee

[CeeMee]

Mum wrote:
"At the (gasp!) giant sized risk of sounding pleased with myself (which I am, and in no way does that imply superiority): I believe I am a healthy person. Whether you would want to stand by me,I cannot know. "

I'm sure I'd want to stand by you Mum but the reality of not being able to, strikes me hard. 
So I'm looking for pointers on how others find live bodied, emotionally healthy people like you in the 3D world.
 
I'd like to have one of the conversations like we just had over the board, in person with someone I can see and hear and feel.   That in no way discounts or degrades the value of the many good people on this board.  I have learned SOOOOO much from so many here.  It is a blessing for sure.

CeeMee

 

[Gail]

I have thought that, too, how nice it would be to sit down and talk face to face with the other members of this board.

I've thought a lot about what it means to be an emotionally healthy and safe person.  I don't think it necessarily means being free of a mental/emotional illness, because many of us have struggled with depression, PTSD, bi-polar, etc.  To me, the most important characteristics of someone who is "safe" are empathy and compassion for others, with a healthy dose of self-respect and self-protection. 

I've read that the most prominent characteristic of narcissists is that lack of empathy.  They have no ability to put themselves in another person's place.  So, if they abuse another, so what?  It doesn't touch them.  That lack of empathy makes them truly dangerous to other people, because they will hurt and demean them without feeling any sense of real remorse.  It's something I am going to be really aware of for the rest of my life.  No more thinking if I can prove I'm a good enough person, someone will treat me well.  If they treat me badly, I'm not going to have any kind of personal relationship with them.

[October]

This is probably not the whole answer, but for me this is a big part of it.  If you can listen, and hear what is said in the silence, then that to me is a sign of emotional health.  And I think this is something I can do, although I have other emotional problems.  (I can connect with other people easily enough; I find it far more of a challenge to connect with myself.  Whatever that is.)

People

Millions of people all over the world, talking.
All saying the same thing.
"Look at me, here I am.  See me!"

Thousands of people all over the world, not listening.
Waiting their turn to say
"What about me? Look at me, see me!"

And one in a million.  One in ten million,
who says, "What about you?  How are you?"
And then listens, for as long as it takes.

Because I am not very good yet at saying
How I am, or who I am, although I try,
And you have to be very patient to hear anything at all.

One in ten million lets you say anythng you like
Even if you prefer to keep quiet,
Because you can't find the words.

Another one I spoke to used to wait
A little while, and then answer the question himself
If I took too long to answer.

So, if the question was too hard,
I would keep quiet, and hold my breath,
Until it went away, and was answered for me.

This time it is different, and you wait patiently
While I work out what to say, and what to do
And you give me time.

Thank you.

[Hopalong]

Hi CeeMee,
I used to think what I felt around healthy people was their silence. In recent years, when I learned about N stuff, I realized half of them couldn't get a word in edgewise because of my own anxious N-spot stream of chatter about myself. It's still often a conscious effort for me to shut up and listen. However, I did learn what "active listening" is. After being a veteran of a women's support group where I experienced that graceful, in-the-present empathy, I started 6 other women's support groups when I moved to another state. After they got going (I only led for a few sessions) I then became a member of one. I think the structured time-sharing in these groups helped a lot. It restrained the garrulous, like me, and bolstered the shy. In one I'm in now, a UU church-affiliated one, we use a "talking stick" and take turns. When you've got the stick, nobody interrupts you.

Other qualities that tell me someone might be a healthy person to be around is verbal cues: I don't frequently hear blaming in their speech, they have a sense of humor that's not cynical or sarcastic, they have a clear gaze and I don't see boiling vats of fear or rage in their eyes, and they have a sense of "liveliness". That's not necessarily over-the-top extroversion, but they just "feel" alive in a good way. Like (this may sound stupid) standing next to a healthy, well-treated horse who's confident (and not dominating you, just comfortable in its being).

Jeez. That was odd. Anyway, I think a lot of it is what they say (and don't say) about themselves and other people, their tone of voice, presence of humor, ability to empathize while staying relazed in their body language, and their gaze.

Hopalong

[CeeMee]

Wow, these are all such great responses.  Each one helps flesh out in my mind and heart what healthy really means.  Much of this understanding is already there but hearing it from you all helps reinforce it.

Great post Cimm and right ON topic.   

<<I have (for most of my life) yearned for someone who believed in me, who would be honest with me, tough even, but from a position of loving me and seeing my potential -- in otherwords, wanting to help me become the best me they believe I can be.>>
 
Yes, I understand that desire, especially the tough and honest part.  It's so hard to find.   I too question why the strong desire.

<<My shrink told me that he has found as a person heals and gains faith in his/herself, this need for a mentor lessons.>>

That has been true for me in regards to my work.  The more skilled and confident I become, the less concerned I am about finding someone in the organization who can mentor or lead me.   In that respect, I have definitely turned to books for direction.  I have a library full of them.  Working  in government, it isn't easy finding a kindred soul who ascribes to the values and principles  espoused  in the books. 

<<I wonder how many times I my life I have protected myself out of others helping me or giving to me? It never ceases to amaze me how complicated we human beings are!>>

That's a great example of how complex we are (your therapist and boundaries).  I could see myself doing that same type of thing but without the awareness.   The fact that you are self aware enough to recognize all these feelings and motives strikes me as evidence of
your good health.  To some extent, I am self aware but I also realize there is a sea of stuff that I'm not aware of (not even close to).  I've relied too much on others (husband and mother) to tell me what I don't know and seemingly can't know.  This is perhaps where that great desire to be "mentored' comes from, particularly on the issue of connectedness and relatedness and more particularly in relation to other women.

I hope to hear more about you and your insights Cimm.    I think I felt some limbic R&R going on there!

Gail:
Thanks for your input as well.  It is especially comforting to hear you affirm what I believe also, those with mental illnesses can be considered healthy in the context of the definition we've developed here on this board.  As one who suffers from bi-polar disorder, I believe I am getting closer to "healthy" on the continuum and certainly consider myself a lot healthier than many  I see without diagnosis but with little empathy or compassion for others as you say.

October:
I think you probably know what I'm thinking.  Thank you for those beautifully poetic thoughts.  I think I'll print this out and share it.

Hopalong:
"I used to think what I felt around healthy people was their silence. In recent years, when I learned about N stuff, I realized half of them couldn't get a word in edgewise because of my own anxious N-spot stream of chatter about myself."

Oh boy does that ring a bell.  I have been guilty of the same in the past and only really got a handle on it when my anxiety was controlled (with meds).  I find that I still do this occassionally on the phone.  Without the nonverbal cues to clue me, I get anxious and continue  blabbing until the the person on the other end  rescues me from myself.   I think this is why I have always hated the phone.  I never answer it in my house and am known for not returning calls.  But I am familiar with "active listening" and do it very well face to face, as I am very interested in other people.

Your list of qualities of healthy people is very helpful and I agree with all of it (even the horse part) !


CeeMee

[Hopalong]

CeeMee,
And we are very lucky to have you interested in us!
(I think YOU are a person I'd like to stand beside.)

Hopalong