Author Topic: A General Theory of Love  (Read 6692 times)

Sallying Forth

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2005, 03:07:34 AM »
My shrink told me that he has found as a person heals and gains faith in his/herself, this need for a mentor lessons. Until then, if you cannot find a mentor in person, there are many to be found in books. It is not the same, I know. I think for me what I am trying to find is someone to reparent me, to give me what my parents could not. Because of this feeling, it occurred to me when he and I were talking that it would probably be unhealthy to find a mentor when I want one so badly (because I am unlikely to see them clearly and could potentially set myself up to be used/abused). I am not saying it is the same for anyone else

Cimm


I find this has been true for me. When I first began my journey I looked for a mentor. I wanted someone who had been through what I had to guide and support me through my journey. I found that there wasn't anyone. Now I am that mentor to myself. I am reparenting me and that is what my t says is healthy.

I did need a t who would listen to me, support me, and guide me when needed. However I found that I needed only one who would listen and support me. I found my own way and become my own guide.

One t I had in another state told me that all anyone who was abused needs is someone who will listen to them and truly hear and believe what they are saying.


BTW I just bought the book along with an Adult Child's Guide to What is Normal and Toxic Parents.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 03:11:12 AM by Sallying Forth »
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

highestgood

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2005, 12:29:17 PM »
 Hi again,

Well I have just consumed 'A General Theory of Love" and it has confirmed so much of what I have intuitively felt about bonding, attachment, the emptiness of placing career achievement over connection and many other things.

I have to say that reading the book brought up a lot of stuff for me emotionally especially since I longed to nurture a child ( I intuitively knew that sleeping with baby was the right choice) and,as with my nephews, have found it delightful  and absolutelyy natural to be curious about their world, enter into it with them, really listen to what they are saying etc. I watch my sister trying to control them over matters that are not particularly important and see the pointlessness, counterproductiveness of control for control's sake.

 A child wants to know why they should do something, they need to feel why it make sense not juts hearing a tired and intense adult telling them they should do something because they are being told to. ( I know I know kids can absolutely drive you to the brink of reason but there are ways to not make things worse: ie self-management)

I couldn't wait to gaze into the eyes of my precious child and had committed to really listening seeing and letting my child speak long before I knew of Dr Grossman and this  board and even  knew about Narcissicm because I have know firsthand how it felt to feel unseen, dismissed, not seen, not felt, not marveled in by my own family ( except my mother who despite her super distractedness managed to give me some good love despite its becoming somewhat enmeshed). Unfortunately that baby did not make it. I hope for another. And I do baulk when every other person tells me to mother myself.... yes that's all  well and good but it is not the same especially when you know about needing to resonate with another being and you have a history of aloneness.

This book has put into words everythign I have felt about the primal drives that keep some of us wanting to stay attached to people who may not be good for us ( my N that I have been writing about) because at least he was a connection however unhealthy- and probably similar to my family of origin stuff.. The 'addictive' pull to stay connected to someone unhealthy is extremely hard to unravel when the
alternative is returning to the void of loneliness ( if like me you are one of those insecurely attached persons who still longs to bind primarily with one person and scans hypervigilantly for that person in your field.. I'm working on it).

I really related to those little rhesus monkeys who were separated from their mothers and at first shrieked in alarm and then became despondent and then fell into deep despair.

IN my particular history the N factor was there for sure but I wonder if many of you out there also suffered 'accidents' of abandonment too.

I was separated from my mother at birth. She heamorrhaged just after she delivered me then we were separated for a week since she developed a fever. So no contact was permitted. My N grandmother made a scene in the hospital that created a lot of stress between my mother and father and she went on to be a very toxic, influence in our family ( Her N mother had rejected her).

My father was a doctor at the hospital and worked very long stressful hours. I was placed in a downstairs bedroom away from the rest of the family (big sister, Mom and Dad slept upstairs) and was well aware of this from a very early age. I felt vulnerable being alone downstairs and I know I cried and cried and cried because Dad ( who was exhausted after long shifts) told me later he wanted to "strangle" me because I cried so much.  (He said this affectionately and I know how he must have felt. sleep deprivation is the pitts, but it still made me wonder what a hypersensitive infant might pick up)


 Maybe if  they hadn't kept an already insecure infant so isolated, I wouldn't have cried so much. The decision to keep me downstairs was also made so my big sister would not be upset or displaced.I can see why they made that decision however, this set up a
lifelong dynamic where her need seemed to be put above mine ( and she has a divaesque personality as a result much as I want to love her).


So I already had a predisposition to be insecure and it took me a while to settle down  and think ok, no big surprises. However , unfortunately I got very sick a few times when my parents were away and then when I was starting to get very selfconscious at around 9/10 my grandmother, whose toxic anxiety and snobbishness and overcompensation was never confronted, told me one day, for no real reason that I  was " a parasite who didn't deserve" my mother. Alas, I didn't go to my mother and report this because I was so mortified and thought it must be true. ( and now I see that my own grandmother was jealous of the love my mother was giving to me).

The denial and  inability to be real in my family  bred in me a kind of hopelessness. .Well Dad was never there always working and when he did come home he demanded affection which, when I wouldn't respond the way he wanted, caused him to accuse me angrilyy of "always rejecting him" whereupon he'd stomp out of the room, I'd feel horribly guilty and my mother would say, now dear  can't you be a little nicer to your father.
It wasn't that I wasn't being nice it's that I felt invaded the way he wanted to hug me and also I was really only attached to my mother and found him almost an alien being, so little time did we spend with each other. I feel sad about it now but at the time I did not want his
sloppy kisses and overwhelming hugs and his highly irritating tickles which actually overstimulated my already hyperalert nervous system. I can't  recall once my Dad quietly approaching me and asking if it was ok to give me a hug or enquiring about why I was  'rejecting' him. I can't imagine not having the curiosity to know what my child was feeling. AND there is a chance they did ask me and I was not able to tell them but I can't recall. I do know I started to go into a deep funk soon after  and a few years later,one year after my sister had been sent abroad to school ,I was also sent away at age 13 to a boarding school in a different country. NOT the same one as my sister strangely.


Though my Mom was and is a brilliant and frequent letter writer and they moved to the same country ( but not the same town the following year,), iI often did not see them for months. We did live together in the holidays but that was also stressful since we'd moved from a beautiful old house which I adored to a cramped flat . Something in me shut down and as a result I was ambivalent/passive in forming friendships ( though popular) and devastated when my first boyfriend at age 15 abandoned me wihtout even breaking up ( right after I lost my virginity to him). So patterns were already formed about feeling insecure about attaching and then feelign very fretful once attached that the person I loved would leave. I know this is the nature of life but it has been very hard to relax in a relationship.

So that's a bit of what came up for me reading the book. One of the biggest issues I have is in choosing. That and knowing I will be ok. Yes, I know that if something goes wrong I will probably survive but what is the quality of the survival. I have developed something of a dread/intolerance/ almost a phobia about being without deep connection in my life. The kind that one's own family, a baby can bring. ON my first post, Vunil without knowing my story wrote that having a newborn was hugely healing for her.  When I read that I felt that awful awful feeling of knowing I was on the right path for myself and then not following through . (This kept happening hence my initial feeling that the Universe was punishing me or I  was punishing me for going against the flow of life; just before my due date the neighbor returned from out of town hugely pregnant and gave birth the same week I'd have been due. Right next door was the constant reminder of what I had destroyed. I almost went out of my mind. No I did go out of my mind.

 Since it is such a huge emotional investment picking a therapist and/or partner I become very split because I have not learnt how to trust my decisions.And I seem to make so many painful mistakes ( ir not recognizing a good trustworthy candidate because I don't seem to have the right receptors for it).

I stand now at 45 looking back at the huge chasms of lonliness in my life and excruciating decision- making and the enormous opportunites missed, the largest being my decision not to go ahead with that pregnancy because my partner seemed so unsupportive and scary but the truth is... though the setup was not ideal the primal part of me primed to be a mother knew that there would be a powerful healing and rebirth  in overcoming the patterns  I had and the ability to bond and grow myself thorugh being a mother to a being I am confident I innately knew how to
 rear ( at least initially) and that would be loved and cherished and adored . Maybe I am being naive. Maybe it takes naivete to raise children or noone would do it.  I grieve almost everyday  to feel the love and joy I had ready in my entire being to give to this child- sleep deprivation,hormone swings, not perfect N partner notwithstanding.  With hindsight, we should have had counselling and he should have worked on his anger issues. N that he is/ was he is not an evil person. I do think he is capable of feeling and he was devstated when I left and ended the pregnancy. What I'm saying is, I overreacted hugely. And yes, I did to him something terrible, I dismissed him, did not see him, did not feel him .... he admitted he walked me down the plank but he says rightly that he didn't make me jump. I was so indignant about what kind of a partner would walk their pregnant girlfrend down the plank that I lost the point. It was horrible he walked me down the plank but what were all of my options...

 The ultimate irony of my story is my own mother began pressuring me to  have an abortion... while I was wondering if it was wise to continue the pregnancy. I was not prepared for her alacrity in forfeiting her own grandchild despite my protests that I didn't know if I could live with myself if I terminated the  pregnancy. Her pressure came no doubt from being concerned that my N partner would complicate my life and my life would become a nightmare ( catastrophising) but some small part of me was hugely dismayed that my mother was not saying, have the baby We'll get through this as a family and things will smooth out. The fatal mistake I made was  in backing down from my heart's desire and giving in to catastrophizing. And being so agitated that I communicated only by email with the father and did not dare see him in person to tlak with him because I was so anxious about being swayed.

So.... don't know if anyone is still reading and I know this was longwinded. As of today, the girl in Hawaii still hasn't ended her pregnancy. Has plans for Monday but is having a sonogram today  and I have a horrible feeling she won't be able to go through with a termination even though the two of them have broken up.. It's really none of my buisness anyone... juts more torture. I do think one look at that sonogram and she/they won't be able to abort. I do believe where there's life there is hope. I  know that with adopting I will  not have the same biological connection and possibly absorption with a child.. since I tend to be so ambivalent and know what I want absolutely very few times in my life. I see now when split in that tortuous place of absolutely wanting my baby ( from the second of conception) to feeling like I could not be connected to the father ( from a highly reactive  agitated place after those two weeks of emotional attacks) I went against the flow of life and was trying to 'protect'.

I don't know what the future holds or what healing is possible but I am grateful to have a place to put my feelings..

And I promise this is pretty much all of the story.

Brigid

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2005, 01:56:26 PM »
HighestGood,
I still haven't gotten the book, but intend to soon.  I, too, had that longing to be connected to someone for my entire life.  I never had parents who wanted to touch me, hug me, hold me or say they loved me.  My 2 n husbands were never connected to me in a healthy way either.  It wasn't until my children came into my life that I was finally able to connect with another human being in a healthy and complete way.  I have worked very hard at slowly letting go as they develop into young adults, but it is not easy and I'm struggling with my youngest leaving for college in 9 months.

You said:

Quote
I  know that with adopting I will  not have the same biological connection and possibly absorption with a child.. since I tend to be so ambivalent and know what I want absolutely very few times in my life.

As someone who has given birth to one child and adopted the other, aside from the inability to nurse the adopted one, there has been no difference in my ability or desire to connect with them.  The moment that baby was laid in my arms after her long airplane trip from Korea, she was my child and the bonding was nearly instantaneous.  I'm not saying that it is that way for everyone, but it certainly was for me.  She was truly my gift from God and I will forever be so grateful to have her in my life.  Children are a blessing no matter how they enter your life.

Now that I have a partner with whom I am feeling a deep and mutual connection, I feel as though I have come full circle.  It did require getting myself healthy first, however, and you cannot ignore that part of the equation or your circle will never be complete.  Even if you are blessed with a child, that child or children will eventually leave the nest and you will need to continue your life independently.  I hope you can envision your life in the long term and how you would like it to look.  Tread carefully and make decisions that will keep you happy and fullfilled forever, not just for now.

Many blessings,

Brigid

CeeMee

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2005, 07:04:24 PM »
Highestgood,

I read through the whole post and was moved to hear your whole story.  Again, your honesty is remarkable.  You've looked at this issue from all sides and as a result, I think you can't help but grow, learn and heal from it.  The fact that you are able to open up and write about it says your healing process has already started. 

You've said so beautifully much of what I thought and felt in reading the book but didn't have the right words.  Maybe now, others will be interested in reading it too. 


I really related to those little rhesus monkeys who were separated from their mothers and at first shrieked in alarm and then became despondent and then fell into deep despair.

Same here.  Didn't that picture of the baby monkey just say it all.  How many times have I felt like that picture.  Come to think of it, just last night.

One of the biggest issues I have is in choosing

I would guess this is the case for everyone.  Life ultimately  boils down to the choices we make.  I've made my fair share of poor ones and I've repeated a few, but overall, I think I have made better choices as I've learned the hard lessons of life.  Decades ago, I made the same mistake as you.  Although I can say the pain is gone (because I was able to forgive myself) I still reflect on it.  And that's been a good thing.  I became pregnant again shortly thereafter and the experience of selfless loving a helpless being made me the sanest I'd ever been my whole life.  Those bonds are powerful. 

Brigid wrote:
Even if you are blessed with a child, that child or children will eventually leave the nest and you will need to continue your life independently. 

This is very true too.  As my children grew up and became independent, my problems returned and they seem to be more serious than ever.  I do think that the hormonal upheaval from having kids contributes to womens' emotional and psychological issues, so having kids can be a double edged sword.  The problems didn't go away, they just took a backseat to my children's needs during their formative years.  Sometimes I wonder if I've harmed my children raising them when I wasn't completely well or healed, but I can honestly say that, my children benefited.  They were first always in my life.  I worked tirelessly for their wellbeing.  And the proof of the pudding is, they truly are great kids.   

As of today, the girl in Hawaii still hasn't ended her pregnancy. Has plans for Monday but is having a sonogram today  and I have a horrible feeling she won't be able to go through with a termination even though the two of them have broken up

Highestgood, I'm wondering if you will feel any better if she terminates her pregnancy.  Will it really bring you any relief or peace of mind?

I do believe where there's life there is hope.

Brigid wrote:  I hope you can envision your life in the long term and how you would like it to look.

IMO, hope comes from appreciating the good there is and looking to the future for what could be.   

I hope to hear more of your story Highestgood.  I'm glad you read the book.  Your enthusiasm for it resonates with we.  A minor connection I know, but for me that's something.  I've known lonliness for too long and am hungry for connections with real, feeling, honest and loving people much like yourself.

CeeMee



highestgood

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2005, 07:21:37 PM »
Wow!

Thanks again Ceemee and Brigid ( and Hopalong and Sela and Miss Piggy) and everyone who has responded so supportively to my posts. I am very moved by your kindness and it has been healing to blurt it all out. I hope to have some  more resolution with this soon.. Ceemee, I think  I have postponed a lot of my life waiting to be healed or healthy enough to do the next thing... I'm so glad you put your children first and it sounds like they turned out very well, you certainly seem enormously compassionate and wise ( the hormonal thing sucks  anyhow but when you don't even have beautiful children to show for it....)

I didn't appreciate at the time that, of the  many difficult challenges which would arise in the course of being a parent,this was the first hurdle which really tested my commitmment. I wasn't the warrior I thought I would be because I gave into doubt that maybe the whole thing was 'wrong'. And nothing I did made sense. I ended the pregnancy because I thought I could not be connected to this man for the rest of my life ( not realising that in fact I already was connected to him in an indelible way). And then two months later I was so griefstricken and desolate that when he wanted me back, I returned  having been able to contact again those parts of our relationship that were actually loving.(That's when he said he wanted to marry me and he forgave me.. until I started releasing some of my anger over his part in what had happened). And then I became the one who was broken and exhausted and  guiltridden about what I had done and he was the back walking away.

oh well... No news yet... she's supposed to have an abortion this friday but who knows if she'll do it.... she's certainly  taking her time about it. And yes, in some way I will  feel relieved but also sad  if she feels anything like I feel. ( and that IS a projection) I told  the N  last time we spoke ( last Thursday) that I couldn't take this rollercoaster but it feels almost worse not hearing from him.
I am not yet ready to end all contact, that too is  trauamatic.... I tried amputating him from my life when I was pregnant and the results were hideous. Cutting people out completely when you have deep ties is very hard ( Not so hard for people I've dated only briefly).


He's left a few messages  which were calm and acknowledged  how precarious the situation is and hoping I was doing well. And then an email that he will be in touch when the whole drama ( his word)  is over because now he is just sitting and waiting. (She was going to have it this past Monday the 14th  and all weekend I was sick to my stomach and avoiding phonecalls  since  I wasn't sure what news I would hear). I got hugely triggered on our last call when he suddenly mentioned that she was having a sonogram and wanted him to come. That's what prompted me to say, hey I can't be on this rollercoaster, because my thought was that if they see the baby neither of them will be able to go through with it.  I'm still very affected by it since it is bringing back all of my own stuff and I am trying to find a healing way through it. One thing though if she goes ahead and keeps it I will try to accept it and be happy for him/them even if the conditions are less than ideal ( or that's my projection I can't really know anything).

I loved your list of 'healthy' traits Ceemee and I know one of them is not living with resentment and regret.


Take care all.







CeeMee

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2005, 12:06:14 AM »
Good to hear from you again Highestgood. 

"And yes, in some way I will  feel relieved but also sad  if she feels anything like I feel. ( and that IS a projection)"

I have never known any woman who has ever felt anything but pain at terminating a pregnancy, so I think you may be right that she will feel much of the same pain that you are experiencing.  My heart goes out to both of you. 


"One thing though if she goes ahead and keeps it I will try to accept it and be happy for him/them even if the conditions are less than ideal ( or that's my projection I can't really know anything)."

You've already planted that little seed and this is a healthy move IMO, (being prepared for the most painful situation).  Maybe more thought about how
she may be in similar pain and circumstances as you could help you accept more easily should she decide to go ahead and have the baby.

Thanks for the addition to our list of healthy characteristics.  I like that one.  I can't take credit for the list though, the boardmembers provided all those wonderful thoughts.  We got a lot of smart people here!

CeeMee


miss piggy

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2005, 12:24:51 AM »
Hello HG,

I agree that your healing journey has already begun.  Were you able to see your T yet?  I hope so because this is just so much to work through. A T can really help guide you through it to keep your balance when it gets overwhelming.

Um, just a paranoid thought: have you ever spoken directly to the new GF or seen her?  I mean...I wonder if he is doing a massive head trip on you. 

Please imagine me saying this as gently and softly as I can, because if that's what's happening I'll come throttle the guy myself!  But I will also confess that I write this after only quickly rereading some of the posts, so maybe the answer to my question is in here. 

Please do take care of yourself and I hope you can disentangle yourself from this creep. 

highestgood

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2005, 11:29:19 AM »
Thanks all..

Miss Piggy... I don't understand what the massive head trip on his part would be ? And no, I have never spoken with her even though he is constantly 'triangulating' which infuriates me..... . It seemed inappropriate  and the last thing I want to do is muddy the waters further ( plus if I have any kind of agenda I'm sure this would be a disaster; all three of us sound like reactive people).

 I once had a  new guy's ex-girlfriend call me ( she got my number some how). She called to warn me that this guy could not be trusted. It felt a little creepy hearing from her since I'd already drawn my own conclusions about him and let him go , she just confirmed it,  however she then got into all of their stuff  and I had to tell her to stop calling  me plus he started to call me when he found out from her that she called me. He then started venting about her and telling me his side. YUCK! I couldn't get away fast enough.

Her last call to me was an acknowledgement that, after starting with a therapist, she could see that she was calling me to get back at him. In fact, she was using me. I sensed this in her first call   ( why is she calling me, doesn't she trust that I can draw my own conclusions) but wasn't sure since she was using the sisters looking out for sisters sthik and I gave her the benefit of the doubt. She told me how he had treated other ex girlfriends badly and was a complete liar.

Anyway.... left a bad taste .

It did occur to me that maybe I should alert this woman in Hawaii to some of his behaviour but is it really my business? Wouldn't I be crossing a big line ? Their dynamic is theirs and might be different from ours. That's the question, when do you interfere in someone else's journey ? How could I be sure that my particular character sensitivities didn't exacerbate situations. My general thought would be, if she wished to contact me then I would speak with her..... I certainly wanted to speak with one of my N's exes to check something out when I was pregnant but she was nowhere to be found.

Anyway the whole thing can deteriorate into' he said, she said'.. Funnily, when he was here on the week of the hurricane and
for my birthday we were talking and he said, "Oh she ( girl in Hawaii) says Hi" and I thought.... what is THAT?. She doesnt even know me. It seemed like some weird move on her part to make her presence felt with me ( since I know she was threatened that he was seeing me) and to create another triangle.  Anyway, I consciously did not respond as if everything was just peachykeen by saying,,,, oh tell her hello back. I just let that one go.


.... anyway...my brain is starting to hurt and the anxiety is building again. The new T is helping somewhat but I feel very alone in this...although you on the board are helping me perhaps more than anyone.

I do wonder though; why can't people keep things simple ?

 Speak for themselves, not take messages for other people,  not gossip ( I do vent  a lot on occassion so I'm probably guilty of telling people intimate details too much), speak directly to the person if they have an issue with them. And not tell you what other people are saying about you - and then request that you not talk to them directly since it would 'betray' a confidence. (my N did this to me a couple of times and it was crazymaking; this is what people are saying about you  but they are too nice to tell you to your face).


love to all

miss piggy

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Re: A General Theory of Love
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2005, 01:25:55 PM »
Hi HG,

I apologize for not being clear.  And triangulating is infuriating for sure.  I wasn't suggesting that you call her at all, but I can see how my message could be read like that.  No, what I meant was, how do we know that he isn't making this all up just to get back at you for leaving him?  That it's all a big hurtful story to push on your most painful button.  From your posts he sounds, well, cruel.  It wouldn't be unthinkable for a cruel person to make up a story just to hurt someone else...I'm sorry if this post is, in turn, insensitive.   :(

Hugs, Miss Piggy